Programming C, C++, Java, PHP, Ruby, Turing, VB
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Programming C, C++, Java, PHP, Ruby, Turing, VB  

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[Gandalf]




PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 8:22 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

Well, I was looking, and I realize this is a pretty old topic, but...

I find it easier to do things straight from the environment, not switching back and forth from editor to command prompt. The way I tried java, I use CrimsonEditor, a good program for java, includes and editor and a compiler build it. All you do is "compile" then "execute". Later on, if you want the .exe, you just find it in the folder where the .java files are.
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StarGateSG-1




PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:37 am   Post subject: (No subject)

I think the best language mix to aim for is for a strong base in C++
added in with java (not holtsofts version, same reason as above), then throw in a little python which is popular in the gaming world. Not to dicourage ruby but it doesn't have much potenial outside of interest learning, although if you want to have fun go ahead. I am sorry wtd that you support it but this is what I think. The languages I have methiod is mostly not my opinion but a collection of research into what employers what in a programer, in turn this reflects what courses university/ college offer.

Thats my 'bit'
apomb




PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:27 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

the cool thing about C++ is that it too, is good for gaming, like little cellphone games and stuff, little side projects, i think im gunna look into that for some like extra cash ... iunno, need a bit more C++ tho
wtd




PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:08 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

StarGateSG-1 wrote:
I think the best language mix to aim for is for a strong base in C++
added in with java (not holtsofts version, same reason as above), then throw in a little python which is popular in the gaming world. Not to dicourage ruby but it doesn't have much potenial outside of interest learning, although if you want to have fun go ahead. I am sorry wtd that you support it but this is what I think. The languages I have methiod is mostly not my opinion but a collection of research into what employers what in a programer, in turn this reflects what courses university/ college offer.

Thats my 'bit'


I think you misunderstand me. While I do think Ruby has employment potential, I don't recommend languages based on that criteria solely or even primarily.

As I've said before, and I'll say again a million times, each language you learn makes the learning process easier. You learn not just programming concepts, but how to learn. It makes sense to start out with languages that are straightforward and accessible (how many obstacles does the language throw up to getting started). C++ and Java are neither of these things.

Secondly, trying to learn "commercially relevant" technologies now as a student is absurdity. By the time you're out in thw world, everything will have changed. Technology moves too rapidly to put too much effort into any one buzzword, because tomorrow it might be meaningless. Additionally... you're students! You don't have balding middle-aged men who can't tell a motherboard from a megabyte telling you what programming languages and tools you can use. You're free to experiment. Take advantage of it.
StarGateSG-1




PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:39 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

[quote]Secondly, trying to learn "commercially relevant" technologies now as a student is absurdity. By the time you're out in thw world, everything will have changed. Technology moves too rapidly to put too much effort into any one buzzword, because tomorrow it might be meaningless. Additionally... you're students! You don't have balding middle-aged men who can't tell a motherboard from a megabyte telling you what programming languages and tools you can use. You're free to experiment. Take advantage of it.[/qoute]

The best wya to learn is go for the "commercially relevant" languages becasue then when and if they do change you will be able to get right on track learnign the changes. Honestly, Java hasn't changed much, nethier has python, and C++ with the new addition of C# there are mainly no differences except in there purpose, there are always a few chnages but nothing that wil amke your knowledge useless.

I maybe a student, I am going off to university and I need to know what courses to take and how they will help me later on. Also, I don't what to be a mindless drone who knows nothing about the language before he takes a 5-20k course. I still I think and strongly suggest to any programers who are serious to push for C++ even with only a turing background, becasue it really is less complex than people say it is, go buy a C++ for begineers, heh! why not buy C++ for dummies. They are all really helpful and if you are deicated you can do it.

Are you suggesting that all teachers/professers are old?
wtd




PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:15 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

StarGateSG-1 wrote:
I still I think and strongly suggest to any programers who are serious to push for C++ even with only a turing background, becasue it really is less complex than people say it is, go buy a C++ for begineers, heh! why not buy C++ for dummies. They are all really helpful and if you are deicated you can do it.

Are you suggesting that all teachers/professers are old?


No, I'm not suggesting all teachers and professors are old. I'm (very nearly) 25. Is that old?

C++ is complex. Do you know what all of the different uses of "const" or "static" mean? Do you understand why a normal class can be split into a header and a ".cpp" source file, but a templated class cannot? Do you understand why you shouldn't use identifiers beginning with two underscores, even though it's technically legal?

Do you understand the difference between:

code:
int c = 0;


and

code:
int c(0);


or

code:
c++;


and

code:
++c;


Do you understand why one of these works and the other doesn't?

code:
struct foo
{
   const int a;
   
   foo(const int init_a)
   {
      a = init_a;
   }
};


code:
struct foo
{
   const int a;
   
   foo(const int init_a) : a(init_a) { }
};


Do you understand why this code is wasteful?

code:
int a[] = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 7, 9};
int b[9];

for (int i(0); i < 9; ++i)
{
   b[i] = a[i];
}


Do you know how to replace that loop with a single line of code?

Do you know why one constructor cannot be called from another constructor?

Do you know when and why to define a destructor?

Do you understand how to create and use function objects?

Do you know why the following is bad form?

code:
std::string s[] = {"hello", "world", "foo", "bar"};
std::string concatenated;

for (int i(0); i < 4; ++i)
{
   concatenated += s[i];
}


Do you know what to replace the above with?

D you know the difference between a struct and a class?

Do you know the difference between the following, and why the first is better code?

code:
struct name
{
   const std::string first, last;
   
   name(std::string f, std::string l) : first(f), last(l) { }

   std::string full_name() const { return first + " " + last; }
};

struct grade_collection : private std::vector<int>
{
   int total() const
   {
      int sum(0);
      for (iterator i(begin()); i != end(); i++)
      {
         sum += *i;
      }
      return sum;
   }

   int average() const
   {
      return total() / size();
   }

   void add_grade(int g)
   {
      push_back(g);
   }
};

struct student : public name, public grade_collection
{
   student(std::string f, std::string l) : name(f, l), grade_collection() { }
};


code:
struct name
{
   const std::string first, last;
   
   name(std::string f, std::string l) : first(f), last(l) { }

   std::string full_name() const { return first + " " + last; }
};

struct grade_collection : public std::vector<int>
{
   int total() const
   {
      int sum(0);
      for (iterator i(begin()); i != end(); i++)
      {
         sum += *i;
      }
      return sum;
   }

   int average() const
   {
      return total() / size();
   }

   void add_grade(int g)
   {
      push_back(g);
   }
};

struct student : public name, public grade_collection
{
   student(std::string f, std::string l) : name(f, l), grade_collection() { }
};


Do you understand the difference between the following?

code:
for (int i(0); i < 4; ++i)
{
   std::cout << some_vector[i] << std::endl;
}


code:
for (int i(0); i < 4; ++i)
{
   std::cout << some_vector.at(i) << std::endl;
}
jamonathin




PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:41 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

wtd you're ( |2 @ z Y !!!11 I feel like I should have been paying you for the help you've been giving me with c++ Rolling Eyes

Half of all that "bad programming" or whatever I saw as not bad programming Confused
wtd




PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:03 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

jamonathin wrote:
I feel like I should have been paying you for the help you've been giving me with c++ Rolling Eyes


I accept cash and money orders.
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[Gandalf]




PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:26 am   Post subject: (No subject)

Wow... that's going to scare a lot of people (including me) from going more in-depth to C++ *hides in corner* Smile

Something I value, though, is: can the language be simple, and simply used as well as complex?
wtd




PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:22 am   Post subject: (No subject)

[Gandalf] wrote:
Something I value, though, is: can the language be simple, and simply used as well as complex?


I'd like to say yes, but honestly, you need to understand all of those things and more to use the language to its full potential and thus make things as easy for yourself as possible.
StarGateSG-1




PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:56 am   Post subject: (No subject)

I never said you had to dig into its full potenial, for a start you can start off the way you leanr turing with hello world, basicly just rewrite your first turnign programs in C++ then it will be on the start. It is easy but you ahve to be deicated. IT takes years to understand some of the concepts of C++, but it is still the next step you shoudl take if you are serious. I have been programing for almost 6 years 3 of them wiht C++ and a little C# I don't understand eveything, but I can write good code and such.
wtd




PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:24 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

StarGateSG-1 wrote:
but I can write good code and such.


Are you certain of that?
StarGateSG-1




PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:35 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

Yes very certain! Very Happy
wtd




PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:51 pm   Post subject: (No subject)

See, the thing about C++ is that if you don't know those things, you're not writing good C++ code. You just don't know it, which is possibly worse than knowingly writing bad code.
McKenzie




PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 12:52 am   Post subject: (No subject)

wtd, while I agree with you that students should not fully rely on us "Balding middle-aged men who ..." to tell them what language they should be learning; that they should be keeping their eyes out for what languages are the movers and shakers you have to conceed his basic point. You are at a big advantage knowing the core of C++ and/or Java before going to University. There are obviously a number of different skills the students must be developing namely: 1. Syntax of the language. 2. Generic Data Structures and Algorithms. 3. Program development. You can't say that syntax is more important than the other two. If you leave high school and you have a flawless knowledge of C++ rules and syntax but can't put together more than simple examples I think you are doing yourself a disservice. All Stargate is saying is that if the University he plans to go to is teaching C++, and Industry still respects C++ why not learn the basics of C++?
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