Old Dog Needs Advice

[fuzzybrow]

I've been admitted to UBC's BCS program, which allows me to complete a BCS in 3 years including 2 terms of co-op. It's really a fantastic opportunity but...I have some reservations.

I've been self-studying programming using Coursera, Khan Academy and Udacity etc..., but browsing the UBC course catalogue, I don't recognize even half the terms(!). While I'm interested in the subject and willing to work hard, I'm not smart lol.

The other thing is that by the time I graduate it will be Sept. 2016 and I will be 30 years old. Given the proliferation of MOOC courses, for those of you in the know, do you guys think employers will recognize these courses with the same validity as a Bachelor's in CS by then? Coursera and Udacity already allow you to post resumes.

Unlike all y'all younglings I'd prefer to study from home 'cause I can go at my own pace, don't need to commute 4 hours a day, and best of all-- avoid paying tuition fees I feel the risk is less if my grand plans don't work out.

On the other hand, going back to school gives me a deadline, work experience and it's a qualification I won't have to make a case for to potential employers. Also I'm a shy one so it'd help expand my oh-so-small-world network. I feel if I can manage to complete the degree, the end result will be more guaranteed.

So what do you guys think? Is it worth the investment?

[DemonWasp]

Don't worry about not knowing the terms. If you knew the terms, you would know most of the material and the degree would be pointless. When I went to UW, I didn't know anything about databases, parallel programming, networks, compilers, operating systems, artificial intelligence, optimization, graph theory, or a thousand other topics I've studied (or had to study) since then. Not all of that study occurred at UW; some or most of it happened through co-op.

It will be a long time before MOOCs are as respected as a decent university course. You might find that taking a MOOC gets you as much respect as a lower-grade university, but UBC has good programs and will give you a lot more opportunities.

For all that people piss and moan (with good reason*) about the cost of getting an education, it's honestly about $40-50K for a BCS. That's about what you pay to buy/lease and maintain/fuel a car. While a car may make your life easier, it doesn't give you the ability to pick up a job for $60K/year (or more) right out of school.

How did you end up looking at university options so late, if you don't mind me asking?

*Footnote: education should probably be free. Or, better yet, the government should subsidize students while they're studying. This kind of model is increasingly common in Europe; Canada is just miles behind.

[Tony]

There's a lot of difference between programming and CS. The easiest way to think about it is that programming is applied CS -- you have been practicing skills in assembling bridges, but not yet in designing new ones. Of course one needs both aspects to fully appreciate either of the two, so you are well ahead of most students entering the same program.

MOOC have been gaining in popularity, but not yet in recognition. The leading edge is a CS Masters degree from Udacity / Georgia Tech, but even that is not putting the same title on the degree granted (so equal, but different). And it will be a few years for anyone to even make it through that program.

So my take is that MOOC will eventually get recognized, but not in 3 years and not in their current form.

[fuzzybrow]

There's a lot of media-hype surrounding MOOC so I'm glad I got the chance to ask people in the industry about it. That being said, I love MOOC cause I can learn how I like.

From an objective standpoint, I definitely think that it's worth the money to get BCS degree, even without co-op. However I currently only make about 17K a year and I got a husband that needs feeding three times a day, sometimes more The problem is that I'm not sure I can manage the workload and if I can't, it'll take some time to recuperate financially.

This will actually be my second degree; I have a BSc in Psych and English. I also spent 4 years travelling (taught English in Japan and Europe). I never thought I'd be smart enough to code but last summer I was looking into jobs for introverts and my husband encouraged me to give it a try via Udacity. It's challenging but very rewarding.

On the programming vs CompSci front, how do you guys feel about BCIT? I'm also admitted there and from my understanding it's more application and less theory. I feel like it's a 'safe' choice in some ways because it seems less challenging than UBC and the curriculum is all laid out for you. Is certification from BCIT seen as less desirable than a BCS degree?

[Tony]

fuzzybrow @ Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:53 pm wrote:

Is certification from BCIT seen as less desirable than a BCS degree?

Simply put, yes.

If you want practical experience, grinding out MOOC courses and working on personal projects will likely get you further than some college (provided that you are motivated enough). The assumption with the Universities is that you'll be taught in-depth theory in class, and you'll pick up all of college level applied programming on your own to complete the assignments.

[mirhagk]

DemonWasp @ Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:41 am wrote:

*Footnote: education should probably be free. Or, better yet, the government should subsidize students while they're studying. This kind of model is increasingly common in Europe; Canada is just miles behind.

Actually education is hella subsidized in Canada, have you seen what foreign exchange students have to pay? Also there's tons of grants. Personally I think education shouldn't be free, but that you should pretty much automatically get OSAP. $50K is nothing to pay back once you have your job, but that's really hard to earn from McDonalds, so it's very difficult for students to afford. Completely free university may end up soiling degrees, or having universities not get enough money, but having automatic loans that are ridiculously easy to get for school would mean every student can afford to go to school so long as they plan on making that much back.

I think free online universities have a long way to go before being recognized, however I know Udacity is offering online courses in partnership with San Jose, and if you pay $150 you actually can get a legit university credit (McMaster acknowledges these as valid courses, so they should transfer to most universities)

[Tony]

mirhagk @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:15 am wrote:

$50K is nothing to pay back once you have your job

Once you have a well paying technical job. Your milage might vary by degree type.

mirhagk @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:15 am wrote:

having automatic loans that are ridiculously easy to get for school would mean every student can afford to go to school so long as they plan on making that much back.

That's the current problem in the U.S. -- the tuition fees have been rapidly going up because any increase is covered by "easy to get loans".

[fuzzybrow]

Tony @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:47 am wrote:

Simply put, yes.

If you want practical experience, grinding out MOOC courses and working on personal projects will likely get you further than some college (provided that you are motivated enough). The assumption with the Universities is that you'll be taught in-depth theory in class, and you'll pick up all of college level applied programming on your own to complete the assignments.

OK, that strikes BCIT off the list then.

I'm also curious about being a technical writer in IT. Generally speaking, if you have a soft degree like I do and are familiar with syntax will that be sufficient to land a position? Or is a CompSci degree still required?

Having gone down the degree route before, I'd say it's only worth it if you have a specific goal in mind before going in. The issue isn't the cost. It's the fact that students are forced to choose a specialty too young. If you have a passion for something and can see yourself doing it for even the next 10 years at the age of 18 then you are lucky. University's just too darned expensive a place to 'find yourself'. For me at least, traveling was a much more affordable and effective means of broadening my horizons. However, I felt a lot of pressure to attend post-secondary after highschool and lacked guidance...I don't entirely regret my first degree, but it wasn't worth the money IMHO.

Ultimately the value of your education is what you make of it. And this time around I'm gonna milk it for what it's worth lol!

On that note, I also have to choose a Bridging Module (essentially a major in a different field) as part of my degree requirement. What do you guys think? Stats? CogSci? Something else?

[fuzzybrow]

mirhagk @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:15 am wrote:

I think free online universities have a long way to go before being recognized, however I know Udacity is offering online courses in partnership with San Jose, and if you pay $150 you actually can get a legit university credit (McMaster acknowledges these as valid courses, so they should transfer to most universities)

Only one credit?

In the BCS program I'd essentially be entering as a 3rd year student so I don't think they'd accept transfer credits. But I'll double check.

[Tony]

I can't comment on technical writing. That seems like a very different position.

For the bridging module, I would recommend Statistics, if you can pull it off. It's like a super power, and you open yourself up to the growing field of Data Science.

[BigBear]

There is a English co-op doing Technical Writing where I am doing my co-op placement.

If you have a degree and you have the experience, then you should be able to get a programming job.

[fuzzybrow]

BigBear @ Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:19 pm wrote:

There is a English co-op doing Technical Writing where I am doing my co-op placement.

If you have a degree and you have the experience, then you should be able to get a programming job.

BigBear, care to elaborate? Is your company hiring Technical Writers (as much as I'd like a programming job now I'm sure I'd botch it at this point)?

Do you mean a CS degree or any degree?

I took a second year Stats course at UofT as a Psych requirement, enjoyed it, and did well enough (A-). As much as I'm interested in the field of Data Science, I've read that each Stats course is exponentially harder than the last. Can anyone verify?

[mirhagk]

If you have any degree in STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) and you take even one or 2 programming courses, you should be able to get a programming job. Looking at 3 example universities, Waterloo, McMaster, and Guelph, and the same program (computer science) give you a degree in Math, Applied Science, or Computing respectively. So most employers usually have "relevant" degree required, which means anything tech-y and you've done at least a programming course (even the online ones might be fine, but a for credit course would probably be better, take Udacity's for credit course, and that might be good enough).

Yeah if you already have a degree, consider trying to get a job without going back, to see how difficult it is.

[BigBear]

There is a senior position

https://windriver.tms.hrdepartment.com/jobs/3241/Senior-Contract-Technical-Writer-VxWorksAlameda-CA

[fuzzybrow]

Thanks for the advice all. After some contemplation I've decided I will go for the program. I took a look at the first couple courses and they don't look too intimidating. And I don't have that much to lose in the grand scheme of things so there's no sense in cheaping out.