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 How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo
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QuantumPhysics




PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:22 am   Post subject: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

How are your marks so high? Wow. Either you go to an easy school or you're some kind of super genius.

RE: TerranceN, I read your post. Lol, someone stole your Geometry wars clone? Damn man that sucks. Sorry I sort of laughed a little. Bastards...
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Tony




PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:48 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

QuantumPhysics @ Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:22 am wrote:
How are your marks so high? Wow. Either you go to an easy school or you're some kind of super genius.

Or just go for sciences and other such courses that have correct answers -- it's fairly easy to produce a series of answers where the expectation is binary (that physics answer is either correct or not, etc.)

mirhagk @ Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:02 pm wrote:
We didn't even consider marks, my work knows that marks are pretty much irrelevant. Communication, genuine interest, and being able to reason about the simplest of programming problems is all that matters.

Up to recently, companies such as Google were very heavily relying on academic grades. As of this year, they still ask for your GPA, even after graduation...
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:45 pm   Post subject: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

Yep, most companies do look at grades, but we aren't inventing computer based glasses. We are simply building databases and websites to manage them.

Marks have correlation with your skill, so lacking any other way to evaluate someone, marks can be a good back up. But marks aren't the most effective way to determine if someone can write a query to return all treatments not currently dispensed. There were several candidates with high marks that couldn't write the simplest of programs.

You need to remember that some of the brightest minds in the world flunked out academically. Just because marks are low doesn't mean someone can't do something. Low marks in class are actually very common among gifted kids before they get into special programs. If school work is too easy for someone, people oftentimes get bored.
rdrake




PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:48 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

Tony @ Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:25 pm wrote:
When I was at University, a ~15% drop in grades was normal. ~70% class average is what professors seem to aim for (so if the class does much better on the midterm, it's quite likely that exam will be made harder to compensate and bring the average back down).

The University is supposed to be there to push your boundaries. If one is "breezing through" a course, then they are not getting better. A 100% does not mean "know everything", but just that not enough was asked.
This.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:43 pm   Post subject: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

I don't think the difficulty should be altered based on the grades people are getting. I'm pretty against bell curves. I think they only belong in subjective courses (like english).

That being said I do think that university should be difficult enough to fail out the people who need to fail out, and I do so badly wish my courses were a tad bit harder. I can't wait until later years, the courses sound so very interesting, and actually challenging.

I agree with tony's 2nd point whole heartadly though. I'm breezing through my comp sci courses, I am NOT getting better at comp sci (other than from my own studies). I wish the course challenged me, which is why I challenge myself instead, and look to do the bonus problems and go above and beyond the course.
evildaddy911




PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:53 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

mirhagk @ Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:45 pm wrote:

You need to remember that some of the brightest minds in the world flunked out academically. Just because marks are low doesn't mean someone can't do something. Low marks in class are actually very common among gifted kids before they get into special programs. If school work is too easy for someone, people oftentimes get bored.


do my low marks and extreme boredom mean i'm gifted? Very Happy Awesome. yeah.. i find that if you get too bored, you'll screw up more and, as a result, get lower grades. i find that the best way to pass math class is to have a math-related side project (i'm almost finished a function that can rotate another existing function) or, since im taking a grade 11 CS course, plan the next year's work ahead of time so i can get a 100%...
mirhagk




PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:10 pm   Post subject: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

Your first sentence, complete logical fallacy. Just because A is a symptom of B does not mean that the presence of A implies B. (does coughing mean you have cancer? No, you need more information). However if you are finding the material too easy (not just boring, but easy boring) then you might be, and if you were in a younger grade I'd suggest getting tested, and getting into the program if you are.

Boredom is a problem with schools, because marks can be low while the student has a much higher understanding. The problem is the lack of a self-paced program in all schools. If you can write an exam at the beginning of the year, why shouldn't you be allowed to? If you don't need to do the homework problems, why should you?

Some people claim that doing the unnecessary work teaches you a good work ethic, but I totally disagree. We shouldn't be teaching people to do work that doesn't benefit anyone, and doesn't need to be done. We shouldn't teach our kids to work hard, we should teach them to work smart.
crossley7




PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:28 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

mirhagk @ Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:43 pm wrote:
I don't think the difficulty should be altered based on the grades people are getting. I'm pretty against bell curves. I think they only belong in subjective courses (like english).

That being said I do think that university should be difficult enough to fail out the people who need to fail out, and I do so badly wish my courses were a tad bit harder. I can't wait until later years, the courses sound so very interesting, and actually challenging.

I agree with tony's 2nd point whole heartadly though. I'm breezing through my comp sci courses, I am NOT getting better at comp sci (other than from my own studies). I wish the course challenged me, which is why I challenge myself instead, and look to do the bonus problems and go above and beyond the course.


In reference to the bell curve comment, there is a place for them in science/math courses once in a while. Such as first year university if there is the standard (using Waterloo course numbers) CS 135 and an advanced CS 145 that covers the same content faster and extends it, then there should be a degree of bell curving in the advanced one so that people have a general idea of their standing with respect to the standard level of the course. Having a 60 in the advanced could easily be a 75-80 or higher in the standard section and it is better to have that understanding than guess since the first year is the most important in knowing whether or not you can handle university. And it also encourages people to take the harder courses if they can handle them to learn more.
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mirhagk




PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:42 am   Post subject: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

Your argument for bell curves is really just an argument for posting mark statistics online, which all my teachers already do. That way you can see how you compare to others without your mark being based off of theirs (which is silly, it doesn't matter if you did better than your friends, it only matters if you know the concepts or not)

EDIT: I don't think they should encourage people to do anything in university. If you want to take all the easy courses, then that's fine, and that shows on your diploma, and your ability. If marks are bell curved then you have the problem of every single course being the same difficulty essentially, since your mark will just be wherever you lie in the bell curve, which means people might ONLY take the hard courses (if your going to get the same mark in both why not?), or the marks might inappropriately show skill that you don't have. What if the class gets an average of a 40% so people who get like 25% actually get bell curved up to a pass, that doesn't makes sense at all. You could only do 25% of the content, but now you pass....

Does waterloo do bell curving for any compsci/math courses? I haven't seen it at Mac yet.
crossley7




PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:26 pm   Post subject: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

CS 145 is the only one I have seen bell curving for and have heard about bell curving (or equivalent) in MATH 145/147. My argument would be solely for first year where there are 2 branches of the same course that feed into the same other courses.

The reasoning bing that you may only know 25% of the 145 content, but you know enough of the 135 content to earn a pass. This way you are given the grade you should have gotten in the lower course and are not necessarily slowed down in your progression towards a degree by taking a course that may have been a little bit harder than you could have. I realize this is create a buffer for students but I think that first year University, having this 1 buffer saving you potentially a few thousand dollars in tuition and learning where your place is ok to have. If you disagree, that's fine. I see your point and bell curving masks actual knowledge in terms of the marks handed out, but it can also be used as a learning tool if people choose to use it that way.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:02 pm   Post subject: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

Hmm so I guess it comes down to who's responsible for learning. I believe at university level it is the student's responsibility to learn, and not the prof's responsibility to teach. If you don't pass the course, so long as the assessment is fair, I believe it is your own fault (especially considering how easy it is to learn online).

As for elementary school I do think the teacher should be much more responsible, however I think the parents should be much more responsible for their children's education in elementary school.

After being through a high school that teaches you to take responsibility for your own learning, I guess I'm a bit biased towards the "it's your fault you failed" view.
crossley7




PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:34 pm   Post subject: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

I see your point, but I think that education should provide you a better chance to learn from mistakes since that is part of learning. If you aren't given the chance then you can't learn that.

I agree that at the university level it is the student's responsibility to learn but my argument is that high school in many ways doesn't adequately prepare you for university level learning with teachers being overly lenient and that compounds to people not knowing their standing in university.

Now note my argument isn't that the standard level courses should be bell curved as if you are not adequately prepared for university then you shouldn't be there. My argument is that if you over estimate your abilities (doing well enough to reach the advanced level threshold somewhere) and take the advanced course, you shouldn't be penalized while still in the transition stage if you manage to still earn enough that you would pass the standard course.

Though if this discussion wants to be continued, it should be moved to a separate thread so the author of this one doesn't get mixed messages and gets the response they are looking for.
faeronsayn




PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:19 am   Post subject: Re: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

QuantumPhysics @ Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:22 am wrote:
How are your marks so high? Wow. Either you go to an easy school or you're some kind of super genius.

RE: TerranceN, I read your post. Lol, someone stole your Geometry wars clone? Damn man that sucks. Sorry I sort of laughed a little. Bastards...




Tony @ Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:48 pm wrote:
QuantumPhysics @ Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:22 am wrote:
How are your marks so high? Wow. Either you go to an easy school or you're some kind of super genius.

Or just go for sciences and other such courses that have correct answers -- it's fairly easy to produce a series of answers where the expectation is binary (that physics answer is either correct or not, etc.)



Pretty much what Tony said. I work quite hard, and try to go above and beyond with lab reports and assignments. English is the only class in which the teacher doesn't want to give a lot of students marks in the 90s, even if they deserve it. Anyway, I wasn't able to read all the replies since most of them kind of went off topic, at least to what I was looking for. But as it seems, I should be expecting marks around 70s and 80s? Which is kind of bad, but that's how university is I suppose. I've heard that first year physics, is quite hard in Waterloo at least for Software Engineers.
junglo




PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:03 am   Post subject: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

How important is it that you like object oriented programming to software engineering program. Is procedural programming the majority over object oriented?
Tony




PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:03 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:How Hard is Software Engineering in University of Waterloo

junglo @ Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:03 am wrote:
How important is it that you like object oriented programming to software engineering program. Is procedural programming the majority over object oriented?

Object Oriented programming is largely a matter of organizing your code, which becomes increasingly important for large scale systems. While the core algorithms and specific functions can be thought of as "procedural", the organization (where in this project should the algorithm be placed) and the relationship between functions and types (this "sort" is used for player characters, while this other "sort" is used for inventory items) are better defined in an "object oriented" approach.

Software Engineering is about managing the complexity of large software systems, and object oriented approach provides many tools to achieve those goals.
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
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