UTSG vs. Waterloo Computer Science

[Serllen]

Hello,
I'm wondering what is the difference between the computer science program offered by UTSG and Waterloo? I applied to both universities and I don't know where I should go...

[crossley7]

I actually just made my decision between those programs. I'll try to sum up a few of the differences as quick as I can.

Co-op - Waterloo has 4 month co-op terms alternating with class terms starting at the end of first year.
UTSG has a PEY after 3rd year which is a 12-16 month job.

Location - UTSG is right downtown in Toronto
Waterloo is further from the centre and is in more of a University town.

For difference in the courses, Look at options and know they are both equally reputable programs.

Generally it comes down to your preference on co-op, location/student life. I think Toronto has a slightly larger course selection as well

[solimaninc]

Great explanation ^

[fdwkid]

I just wanna reply and bump this topic to the top. I'm in the situation to choose between waterloo SE and UTSG General Engineering --> Computer Engineering. I just want to hear more about the two unis.

[DemonWasp]

Well, I was (am, I guess) a student at UW, and my girlfriend is a student at UofT, so I'm familiar with both campuses. I've also lived in Toronto for >2 years and Waterloo for >16 years.

UW
UW is at the edge of Waterloo (a smallish city of ~100k), very close to Laurier (WLU). It's a transit hub for the local public transit service (Grand River Transit, GRT); the GRT generally has very poor service but it's usable near the universities and into Kitchener (a city that has grown into Waterloo).

UW has widely varying architecture. The new quantum-nano building (incomplete) is very slick, modern, avante-garde design. The psychology building is frequently referred to as "a psychology test in itself", because only the insane can understand its layout. The engineering buildings are all ironically poorly repaired (excepting that stupid new one they just built, Engineering 17 or whatever). The Math building looks like it should be a bomb shelter (not to be confused with "The Bomb Shelter", a student-run pub in the basement of the Student Life Centre, SLC). The Davis Centre is a little surreal, with most of its design dominated by large, colourful piping of no purpose; it is frequently known as "the Mario building".

Most of the other buildings are pedestrian, with no particularly great or bad design. None are more than ~60 years old, as UW didn't inherit any buildings when it was constructed.

There are three "colleges" attached to UW, St. Jerome's, Conrad Grebel, and Renison. All are religious, though I'm fuzzy on the specifics. Several of the courses UW offers (mostly psychology, history, languages) are offered through these colleges; these courses are marked with an additional letter to indicate that they are not offered by the core campus. In my opinion, avoid the colleges if you aren't religious. You can take most of the courses offered through them at the core campus, where you're likely to get a better prof.

The residences aren't great and the food uniformly sucks. There are few restaurants worth mentioning on campus, and all four are Tim Horton's locations. There is a food-dominated plaza nearby.

Because Waterloo is a very suburban location, most people have to drive at least a bit to get around. Even avid cyclists will find that cycling several kilometres to get anything gets tiresome. It is possible to get by with just public transit and a bicycle, but it'll be better if you drive -- or have a friend who does.

The student culture is strange, especially in the Math department. About half of all people in Math are white people from Ontario; another half are Asian (mostly Chinese, I think, though I could be very wrong). Everything else is present only in trace amounts. The two major cultures tend to stick to themselves. The other faculties are slightly more diverse, but generally reflect the local population (almost exclusively white, mostly wealthier than average).

Politically, the city and area tend to run fairly conservative / right-wing. The Liberal candidate that had held the riding for several elections was recently defeated by a Conservative candidate (which surprised nearly everyone).

Administratively, UW is generally flexible and happy to work with you (if you're a good student and show up to all your meetings and so on). However, they move ponderously slowly and don't spell any of their policies out. If you want answers, go talk to one of the advisors (and bring pen, paper and pre-written questions; you'll have to wait in line, so best to make the most of it).

Ironically, for a university renowned for its Computer Science department, UW has some of the worst software I have ever encountered. This includes Quest (finances, acceptances, exam schedules, course enrolment, etc), JobMine (co-op), UW-ACE (all online course material, including all your assignments in most Math courses), the library systems, etc. Even the (free!) wireless is flaky.

UT
UT is at the heart of Toronto (a honking great city of ~infinity), very close to nearly everything. It's easily accessible by transit (Toronto Transit Commission, TTC). The TTC is much more usable than the GRT, but it's still filthy, slow, and prone to maintenance problems.

UT has a mix of architecture; some of the buildings are upwards of 200 years old, while others are very modern. Many of the old buildings are crumbling, but undergoing significant restoration efforts; the newer buildings are generally nice enough. Few stand out.

I have no experience with UT residences. Most of the food on-campus is overpriced and mediocre. Most of the food near the university is priced fairly, but still pretty mediocre. You may have to walk a decent distance to get good food (if you walk South to a street called Baldwin you can get good, expensive food; if you walk east to Yonge you can get decent, affordable food; if you want both good and cheap you had better learn to cook).

Because downtown Toronto is very dense, you can usually walk most places (~3km walk radius). The streetcars and subways will also contribute to your mobility through the city. However, everything comes with a price: Toronto is always noisy, filthy, and smoggy. Judging by the constant sirens, the city is also in the grip of a serial murderer-arsonist. I strongly recommend investing $5 in a decent pair of earplugs if you intend to live in the city.

I can't really comment on the student culture. It is certainly more multicultural than Waterloo / UW, as is the city in general. This does mean that you can find actual Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc food throughout the city (not so in Waterloo).

Politically, the downtown parts of the city are somewhat left of center, while the suburbs (you won't see those much as a student) tend to run fairly conservative / right-wing. Toronto's new mayor, Rob Ford, is a complete and utter idiot elected by the suburban regions; he's been wreaking havoc with the TTC and a number of other core elements of the downtown. You will almost certainly hear about him in the news, and generally not positively (unless you make the grievous mistake of reading The Sun).

Administratively, UofT doesn't care much for their undergrads. The general response time on any particular issue is "6-8 weeks" taken to the extreme. Policies are unclear (of course). Graduate students will generally get better service.

UofT's student software doesn't suck as badly as UW's does, but it's still extremely bad.


If you have specific questions, I would be happy to elaborate.

[[Gandalf]]

DemonWasp @ 2012-04-02, 9:57 pm wrote:

I have no experience with UT residences. Most of the food on-campus is overpriced and mediocre. Most of the food near the university is priced fairly, but still pretty mediocre. You may have to walk a decent distance to get good food (if you walk South to a street called Baldwin you can get good, expensive food; if you walk east to Yonge you can get decent, affordable food; if you want both good and cheap you had better learn to cook).

Granted taste is almost purely subjective, but I'm not sure how you managed to put such a negative spin on this, especially when compared to Waterloo. The selection of eateries walking distance from the UofT campus is trillions of times greater, and there are a solid amount of good and affordable places around the area... but hey I'm no Chef Ramsay. You might get bored if you eat out for all three meals every day for a year or two, but I haven't had to deal with that problem. Really food is most likely the last thing you'll be complaining about.

[Brightguy]

DemonWasp @ Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:57 pm wrote:

The Math building looks like it should be a bomb shelter

I always thought the back of RCH was more of a bomb shelter. The MC is a fortress.

DemonWasp @ Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:57 pm wrote:

The Davis Centre is a little surreal, with most of its design dominated by large, colourful piping of no purpose; it is frequently known as "the Mario building".

Hah. Brilliant!

DemonWasp @ Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:57 pm wrote:

There are three "colleges" attached to UW, St. Jerome's, Conrad Grebel, and Renison.

Also St. Paul's.

Quote:

Ironically, for a university renowned for its Computer Science department, UW has some of the worst software I have ever encountered. This includes Quest (finances, acceptances, exam schedules, course enrolment, etc), JobMine (co-op), UW-ACE (all online course material, including all your assignments in most Math courses)

Yeah, I never understood that. UW-ACE has to be the worst designed website I've ever used. Thankfully it is being phased out; now perhaps the myWaterloo email takes first place.

[DemonWasp]

Either St. Paul's is new in the last 2 years (since I've been gone), or my memory is going.

Food immediately around UofT is awful. I've had bad sushi, bad coffee (not even sure how that's possible...other Second Cup locations aren't as bad), and a bad burrito (I think) near there. That's 3/3 meals. There was a decent bagel place. There's a lot more selection within 1km, certainly, but food quality is poor immediately around the university (at least, on the south end, where I'm more likely to frequent -- I work to the south and my girlfriend mostly has classes in SF).

The food situation in Waterloo is that you'll see mostly chain restaurants and home-cooked food. You will not find international food (some of the grocery stores have the shameful "international aisle", which mostly feature "Mexican" spice packs and sesame oil). I'm not saying food / restaurants in Waterloo is good, I'm saying food immediately next to both universities is similarly low-quality.

You will have better luck finding truly great restaurants in Toronto. You will have better luck finding good food at a reasonable price in Toronto. You will have no luck whatsoever finding good food near either university (in my experience).

[Serllen]

Thanks for all the answers! They really help a lot.

How would you guys rate both universities in terms of their student experience? For example, classes and profs. (In computer science program) Also, are there differences (if any) between the computer science programs at both universities? For example the courses offered and specialized areas?

[fdwkid]

Wow great replies!!! Thanks so much, this is equivalent to me asking a hundred people for opinions.