What are your thoughts on DART?

[ProgrammingFun]

http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/17/googles-dart-lands-in-chromium-tech-preview/
Title says it all. Didn't make this into a poll because I think people will have distinct opinions.

[Sur_real]

hey PF whats your opinion on this?

from what I'm reading, DART is vbs for google right?

Also, google hints that DART is supposed to solve fundamental problems that occur with js but can someone elaborate on that?

I don't know but the thing with having a lot of programming languages is that many utilize different methods of "execution" like JVM (java) or CLI (C#) or directly to machine (C++) and now DART (Dart virtual machine)

[Zren]

Dart has baked in classes unlike JavaScript with it's annoying prototype model.

http://www.dartlang.org/docs/getting-started/class.html

code:

class Greeter {   String _prefix = 'Hello,';          // Hidden instance variable.   String get prefix() => _prefix;     // Getter for prefix.   void set prefix(String value) {     // Setter for prefix.     if (value == null) value = "";     if (value.length > 20) throw 'Prefix too long!';     _prefix = value;   }   greet(name) {     print('$prefix $name');   } } main() {   var greeter = new Greeter();   greeter.prefix = 'Howdy,';         // Set prefix.   greeter.greet('setter!'); }

[ProgrammingFun]

Sur_real @ Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:43 pm wrote:

hey PF whats your opinion on this?

I'm actually looking forward to seeing how this turns out. DART seems like a nice initiative on the part of Google and considering it has backwards compatibility while being advertised as solving JavaScript's problems, it can quite possibly become the language of choice for web developers (over JS and jQ). However, I think that the real success of DART will only be determined by the competing browsers on the market, namely IE. If IE adopts it, it will become very successful, if not, people may still be reluctant to use it (Mozilla's not really a problem since Google sponsors them). I think that with HTML5-type marketing for it, such a thing could happen. Also, DART looks much more like Java than JavaScript, which to me is nice because it looks more familiar. I'm gonna wait and see how this turns out.

Sur_real @ Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:43 pm wrote:

from what I'm reading, DART is vbs for google right?

Wikipedia wrote:

Dart is intended to solve JavaScript's problems (which, according to a leaked memo, cannot be solved by evolving the language) while offering better performance, the ability "to be more easily tooled for large-scale projects" and better security features.[2] Google will offer a cross compiler that compiles Dart to ECMAScript 3 on the fly, for compatibility with non-Dart browsers. There will also be a facility to convert typed Closure code to Dart.[4] Google also plans to integrate a native VM into Chrome (there is a Chromium branch aiming to implement this)[5] and encourage competitors to do the same with their browsers.

Sur_real wrote:

I don't know but the thing with having a lot of programming languages is that many utilize different methods of "execution" like JVM (java) or CLI (C#) or directly to machine (C++) and now DART (Dart virtual machine)

I don't really see any big problem with that. Is there one? You would know better than me.

[mirhagk]

Lol so DART should be supported by IE when chromium doesn't even support it for windows yet?

IE will need to pick it up for it to be successful however, otherwise web developers will be very wary of using it when only chrome supports it, and the most technologically impaired use IE.

Many advancements in the web platform failed simply because IE did not support them, and many advancements (the DOM namely) came about simply because IE created them so they became the standard.

The problem with web technologies is that they need to become standard to become useful for web developers, and in order to become standard, they need to be supported by the most commonly used browsers, as well as the browsers used by technologically impaired (which don't know how to switch browsers)

[ProgrammingFun]

I said IE because it's still the most populart and web developers still have to cater to it. The future of DART for now does not seem very bright right now:

Wikipedia wrote:

As of January 2012, Microsoft Internet Explorer, Mozilla Firefox, Opera Software Opera browser and Apple Safari do not have plans to implement support for Dart.
Microsoft's JavaScript team has stated in Nov. 2011 that, "Some examples, like Dart, portend that JavaScript has fundamental flaws and to support these scenarios requires a 'clean break' from JavaScript in both syntax and runtime. We disagree with this point of view."[8]
Apple engineer Oliver Hunt, working on the WebKit project (which powers both Safari and Google's own Chrome browser) has stated, "Adding an additional web facing language (that isn't standardized) doesn't seem beneficial to the project, if anything it seems harmful (cf. VBScript in IE)."[9]
Hunt goes on to say, "Adding direct and exposed support for a non-standard language [Dart] is hostile to the open-web by skipping any form [of] 'consensus' driven language development that might happen, and foisting whatever language we want on the web instead. This implicitly puts any browser that supports additional proprietary extensions in the same position as a browser supporting something like vbscript, and has the same effect: breaking the open web by making content that only works effectively in a single product."[10]
Mozilla's Brendan Eich, who developed the JavaScript language, has stated, "I guarantee you that Apple and Microsoft (and Opera and Mozilla, but the first two are enough) will never embed the Dart VM. So 'Works best in Chrome' and even 'Works only in Chrome' are new norms promulgated intentionally by Google. We see more of this fragmentation every day. As a user of Chrome and Firefox (and Safari), I find it painful to experience, never mind the political bad taste."[11]

[mirhagk]

Well IE and Safari would support it if Firefox and Chrome both did, and if websites started to use it.

Google could be a complete dick and rewrite their webpages to use DART, which might increase downloads of chrome, and definetly persuade other browsers to support it, but it also could severely hurt their control on the web, as google isn't really that much better than it's alternatives, and it's success mostly stems from the google name.

[ProgrammingFun]

The dick strategy would only hurt them, especially since Google claims that these extra projects are only there to improve the internet, not to make any personal profit.

[mirhagk]

Lol a commercial company that spends most of their team on something that they don't hope will make them money? The intention is to create these projects to improve the internet, and therefore their rep, and therefore their money.

But yeah, it'd require some web developers to commit temporary suicide in order to get this going (especially since it's not THAT much better than javascript, sure it's better but not worth committing website suicide for)