From Turing to...

[Aange10]

Okay, so I have some (rather typical) inquiries to ask you guys.

(Here is a bit of background)

I originally decided I wanted to learn java to help run my Minecraft server. This was about a month ago and I was talking to one of my friend's programming buddies, and he told me that I was best to start with Turing. So for about a month now (give or take a week...) I've been playing around with Turing, and am quite pleased with the progress I have made. However, there are a few things I need to decide, and I think I'd make a much better decision if I asked you guys who could help.

Now, I've taken some time to read up and ask friends about a good language to choose, and I have also read on the forums about languages. My problem, however, is when should I start the next language? I was hoping to ask you guys if you could tell me what I should know before i hop to another language. I was honestly longing for an answer along the lines of "You should be able to code ... successfully in Turing." or "You should know how ... works, and how to properly ...". But I'm sure you guys would know a lot more about this than I (which is why I am here), so answer me however you like.


I also have one other question. I've been trying to decide if I want to code Java or C++. That is what I have narrowed it down to. My flaw in this is my ignorance to the differences. I know that java has "memory leaks" (To my understanding, it uses memory that it doesn't need), and I know that java also runs on it's own program (that then runs onto the client's computer). I know that Java is strictly OOP as well. However my knowledge on C++ is lacking.


I'd like to know if the graphics on one is worse than the other (And at that, is it something I should worry about at this step [In the end I'll learn them all...]), if I code in C++ will I have to know some tech savvy stuff just to make it operate on a different computer [where as java will just run its self]? Will I receive more assistance in one language as opposed to the other? And lastly, though I am ignorant, the only thing I've ever seen made in C++ (That I know is coded in C++) is MMORPGs. (Which I obviously won't be coding anytime soon) Is it possible to code a simple game on C++ without requiring me to (Exaggerating here) code a MMORPG's worth of coding? [I.E. I coded a nice little game of paddle ball in Turing with 120 lines. Could C++ make something simple like that without me having to code it to be compatible with other programs, hardware or w.e?]


~~ Colored to try and make it less of an eye stabber.

[Tony]

Switching languages? I don't think there's a clear answer to that one. Right now I feel like saying "after you write a library to extend the language in some way", but that opinion might change; others would certainly disagree. Turing allows for learning of all kinds of neat CS constructs, including OOP and pointers; but other languages would arguably provide a better environment for working with either.

Java/C++ -- the starting question that you need to answer here is: what do you hope to get out of the next language you pick up? That would largely determine the direction of suggestions. Learning a particular concept? Working with something that's very different? Building a particular kind of an application?

[Insectoid]

Quote:

I also have one other question. I've been trying to decide if I want to code Java or C++.

Big mistake. Java tries its best to work against you. C++ charges one eyeball per line of code, and an orphan dies every time you compile it.

I suggest you learn a lot of the theory behind binary, float representation, etc. There are a lot of little things that are good to know, that you actually should know before jumping into a major language. You should know what a function is, what scope is, etc. Things that carry over.

If you want to do anything graphical in C++, you'll need a graphics library. There are several options (SDL/OpenGL and Allegro are popular), all of which require significantly more work than Turing (even if fundamentally they function the same). C++ and Java are both object-oriented, which is very, very different and yet similar to typical procedural Turing code(I'm aware Turing is OOP-capable).

If you really want to learn C++, start with C (most, if not all, C code is compatible with C++). If you really want to learn Java, get some carpel tunnel cream 'cause you'll be typing a LOT to do very little.

I'd suggest starting with Python or Ruby to get familiar with the OOP paradigm. They're much more forgiving. Python has Pygame, a library for writing, well, games. Ruby is very readable and intuitive, and has a stronger object-oriented implementation. Anything but Java or C++. Those languages are best learned with an instructor unless you're very comfortable with OOP and gray hair.

[Aange10]

I would certainly love to program a PC game. I'm not pursuing this ambition with naivety; I would like to program a game in which I could incorporate my ideas. ... Like a person who draws what they think, I just want to program it. I find myself enjoying writing the code (in Turing, I hope that that wont change) and avidly pursuing more knowledge on the subject (despite the laborious nature of learning complicated things).

The reason I haven't just jumped straight into Java (Which is what I'm leaning to) is because I know that from the games I've seen, C++ always runs better and looks better. I'm only hesitant with C++ because I'm afraid I'm going to get in over my head with trying to make it compatible with things, or even simply making it run correctly.

In the end, I will learn both; lately I've been aspiring a career in Computer Science because of my (apotheosizes) joy in programming. It has seemed to be the perfect antidote to my ignorance, and an exciting pass time that leaves me feeling successful.




EDIT to respond to Insectoid: I see. I want to see what Tony says, but if you think that is a wise plan, I'll take it. I know I'll learn tons of languages if I become a programer, so if this will progress me faster than so be it. Also next year I will be concurrently enrolled to a tech center, whom I am sure will teach Java or C/C++. I've tried to make my intentions with programming as clear as possible, as well. I mean not for these to be limits, though; Just for them to be guidelines.

However I do know I will also participate in robotics next year, and they have the option to code in C++. I'd like to learn the big stuff, but as I said If it is better to me to learn the smaller languages until I can get an instructor, I understand that too. I also think it is worth noting, I'm wanting to learn Flash programming to make some spare money from some of the flash websites (Newgrounds,Kongregate, etc.)

[Tony]

Aange10 @ Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:05 pm wrote:

I would like to program a game in which I could incorporate my ideas. ... Like a person who draws what they think, I just want to program it.

I'm thinking maybe Processing -- http://processing.org/

It's kind of like Java with Turing's simplicity of syntax. Check out the gallery for the kind of things you can do. Read the sample source code to get a feel for the language. It's not something to learn advanced Computer Science material with, but it could offer you the right kind of environment to play around with ideas; especially for interactive stuff such as games. In terms of C++ games -- don't look at studio games with large teams and budgets, that's not what you'll be doing. Look at some indie titles http://store.steampowered.com/genre/Indie/ Can Processing handle something like that? Perhaps comparable to some. It often comes down to artists more so than the number of polygons an engine can push.

Aange10 @ Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:05 pm wrote:

I also think it is worth noting, I'm wanting to learn Flash programming to make some spare money from some of the flash websites (Newgrounds,Kongregate, etc.)

I _think_ you could compile Processing into JavaScript http://processingjs.org/ and then use Appcelerator Titanium http://www.appcelerator.com/ to compile JS into iPhone/Android mobile apps. That's a potential avenue to some income. I have no idea how well Flash websites pay, so I can't compare.

[Aange10]

Thank you very much for your help, Tony, and Insectoid. I'm going to check out Processing and get a feel with it, and then I'll probably learn Flash>Ruby>Java.

Hmm, a sudden jolt of ambiguity there... Will definitely take some work and time!(: ... I'll still be active on the Turing forums here.

Is there a site you could recommend me to similar to this for Processing? Or a particular thread I should post in if I need help in it (here)?



Also, Tony, what is the income like for mobile apps? If I was to make an average game (5/10 stars)?

Flash sites offer up to 50% of the revenue the game generates each month. I'm not too worried about making money since I'm so amateur right now, but knowing prices is good for future references, and money takes you many places.

[Tony]

There should be decent books on Processing; http://forum.processing.org/ might be a good place to start with language-specific questions.

Paid mobile app markets usually take a 30% cut (so you get to keep 70%). It can also be an ad-supported free app. Not sure how well that works. Of course if you have an average game that you just throw into the mix and do nothing else, it will likely get no sales.

[Aange10]

I see, I see. Thank you a ton for your time and help, I'm going to sleep, and then possessing starts tomorrow and this weekend!

[mirhagk]

The switch from Turing is always a deadly one. Turing makes graphics so easy, let's you not worry about things and just draws what you tell it to do. Most other languages don't let you do this, you have to mess around with different constructs to get certain things working, and you have to set up windows and such.

Actually to overcome this drawback, I've started to implement the Turing graphics library in C# and I have rectangles, lines and dots done (started a couple days ago). It makes it just as simple to draw a box, requring only one line of code.

If anyone is interested in it I can post it, and I'm working on it to hopefully implement the entire libarary in C#.

(Oh and in case anyone is wondering, I did a couple speed tests and it's up to 600 times faster than Turing in the extreme case)