High School Courses for Computer Science Career

[deathbow2134]

I am intreasted in a career in computer science. I am not yet in high school, but I will be next year. I want to go to a very prestigious high school that offers super advanced (IB) courses. This school does not offer any computer science/programming courses. However, they do have very very advanced math/physics courses. I can also go to a different high school that offers one grade 12 programming course, but it's math and physics courses that aren't nearly as high level as the ones at the first school.

In university I think I want to major in one of these fields:

Computer science
Software engineering
Computer engineering

Especially Computer science (I want a research career).

Is it better to have very advanced math and physics courses without a programming course or is it best to have less advanced math / science courses with a programming course?

I really want to go to the first school (the one that dosn't have a programming course). Is that important to have a programming course? Will not having limit what universities I can go to?


Thanks so much for your time! [/list]

[DanielG]

from experience, computer science courses in high school tend to be very simple, and don't teach too much, you could probably learn the entire course in 2 months.
So I think it's probably better for you to go to a school with a good math/physics, since particularly the math will be useful (or at least I think it will be) for you in the computer science research.

[btiffin]

old guy opinion
Scientists make some of the best programmers. Or more to the point, scientists can create some of the best programs, out of need. CERN gave us the WWW and the Grid.

Armies have the same need based reasons, but that kinda blows. Bankers and insurance companies have the same need based reasons too, and those kinda blow. We all benefit, but the morals behind it need to be downplayed or ignored to feel comfortable.

Scientists (usually) do it from a moral high ground of advancing the flag for advancement's sake.

Yet, will morals get you past a University's admission board? Maybe ... but maybe not. Schools need cash to function just like most things in life and like it or not, it's really really hard to spend "good intentions" on food. There needs to be an economic upside potential somewhere in the equation.

Having spewed all that, I'd go for the higher levels of Math and Physics over high school level Turing. Pick up the computer skills and perhaps some way of demonstrating those skills in a few lines on a University Admission Form while you study quantum mechanics.

Or not. Very personal decision to be made, and the fine details of the future are not predictable.

Cheers

[wtd]

The stuff you will learn in math and physics will give you a good reason to build computer programs.

Or... what btiffin said.

[Prabhakar Ragde]

deathbow2134 @ Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:09 pm wrote:

Is it better to have very advanced math and physics courses without a programming course or is it best to have less advanced math / science courses with a programming course?

It is better to have very advanced math and physics courses.

IB CS in particular is a sprawling mess.

[Drew416]

Prabhakar Ragde @ Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:59 am wrote:

IB CS in particular is a sprawling mess.

Why do you say that? I was in IB CS and I thought it was an excellent program. Grade 10, 11 and most of grade 12 is really really good. They do go a little crazy in the second half of Grade 12 with the hardware stuff on which we don't get to spend appropriate amount of time but as far as the programming goes, it was excellent. I am finishing first year CS at university right now and I can easily say that I learned more in IB CS then the first year of university.Working on the final project alone taught me more things then the entire first year university, you actually get to use what you learned in a practical situation which gives you so much appreciation for the material. For example using a linked-list to make a scheduling program as your final project gives you far more appreciation and knowledge of linked-lists then a cookie cutter assignment by the prof and one question on the exam does. Similarly, in University the prof gives us a contrived assignment asking us create a class that inherits from another class, does x, y and z blah blah blah. And the only thing that the student is thinking-- this is stupid, why is the prof making me do this using classes when I could do this more easily and faster without it. IB forces you to appreciate such concepts, when you are working on your final project and see how OOP is making your life easier you never think of it as a waste of time and you are more inclined delve further into it unlike in university where the way they teach you stuff and their assignments are so contrived that you just want to get done with the assignment get a good mark and get the hell out of the library. IB CS was a much better Intro to CS course then University's first CS course (atleast at my current university)

BTW deathbow2134, if you are considering going into IB Higher Level physics be warned it is an absolutely brutal course... no one can get a 7... 6 is a major reach too. If you are willing to work your ass off you can maybe get a 5. The higher level section of the course (that happens in the second semester of grade 12) is some of the most bizarre shit I have ever seen. It is the worst structured IB course. They cram so much stuff in to that last semester that it blows your brains. Towards the end of grade 12 we were doing were doing topics that people in second year university physics do and we were barely spending any time on them to make sure we covered all the stuff on the exam. I'd say go to the school that offers IB but avoid the higher level section of physics, take it at standard level (or atleast be smart enough to drop out if you feel overwhelmed). Does the high school you are going to weights IB grades? If not IB can really deflate your marks, I know most IB schools weight your marks appropriately but some high schools are hardasses about it and say whatever mark you get is your final mark not considering how unfair it is for IB people and how they become no longer on a level playing field with the regular students. Ask your guidance councilor about it... if your hs does not weight your IB marks then IB is really not worth it.

[Prabhakar Ragde]

Drew416 @ Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:38 pm wrote:

IB forces you to appreciate such concepts, when you are working on your final project and see how OOP is making your life easier you never think of it as a waste of time and you are more inclined delve further into it unlike in university where the way they teach you stuff and their assignments are so contrived that you just want to get done with the assignment get a good mark and get the hell out of the library. IB CS was a much better Intro to CS course then University's first CS course (atleast at my current university)

It may be better than your current university (I agree that assignments where the concepts arise naturally are preferable to contrived ones), and it may be all right in the hands of a very good teacher and with a very good student, but the IB curriculum is way too ambitious. The risk is a very shallow coverage of the topics. It sounds from your description like IB Physics has the same problem.

If I'm not mistaken, you use C and then C++ at Calgary. What did you use for IB? --PR

[jernst]

Prabhakar Ragde @ Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:59 am wrote:

It is better to have very advanced math and physics courses.

I agree with this completely. Not having sufficient math background definitely makes your life harder later one. It seems almost everyone I have met with a sufficient math background can pick up on computer science concepts quickly.

[deathbow2134]

Prabhakar Ragde @ Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:21 pm wrote:

Drew416 @ Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:38 pm wrote:

IB forces you to appreciate such concepts, when you are working on your final project and see how OOP is making your life easier you never think of it as a waste of time and you are more inclined delve further into it unlike in university where the way they teach you stuff and their assignments are so contrived that you just want to get done with the assignment get a good mark and get the hell out of the library. IB CS was a much better Intro to CS course then University's first CS course (atleast at my current university)

It may be better than your current university (I agree that assignments where the concepts arise naturally are preferable to contrived ones), and it may be all right in the hands of a very good teacher and with a very good student, but the IB curriculum is way too ambitious. The risk is a very shallow coverage of the topics. It sounds from your description like IB Physics has the same problem.

If I'm not mistaken, you use C and then C++ at Calgary. What did you use for IB? --PR

Haha, I belive it. Luckily, the school around where I am only offers physics and math at the standard level.

What sucks is that they don't have cs
And I would do so good in it because I already know so much about cs...

[Drew416]

Prabhakar Ragde @ Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:21 pm wrote:

Drew416 @ Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:38 pm wrote:

IB forces you to appreciate such concepts, when you are working on your final project and see how OOP is making your life easier you never think of it as a waste of time and you are more inclined delve further into it unlike in university where the way they teach you stuff and their assignments are so contrived that you just want to get done with the assignment get a good mark and get the hell out of the library. IB CS was a much better Intro to CS course then University's first CS course (atleast at my current university)

It may be better than your current university (I agree that assignments where the concepts arise naturally are preferable to contrived ones), and it may be all right in the hands of a very good teacher and with a very good student, but the IB curriculum is way too ambitious. The risk is a very shallow coverage of the topics. It sounds from your description like IB Physics has the same problem.

If I'm not mistaken, you use C and then C++ at Calgary. What did you use for IB? --PR

I see what you are saying and some of that is true. CS IB is not perfect, at my school they only gave a Higher Level CS only 2 semesters of class time (one class every other day through grade 11 and 12) whereas HL courses need and get atleast 3 semesters (in Europe they get 4 apparently), it creates problems towards the end similar to physics but not as extreme, however the first leg of the course which is the programming part is very good. Grade 12 is 80% theory and very little programming anyways so it's not a huge problem that they cannot go into great depth with it.

Java is the only language that IB accepts.

deathbow2134 @ Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:39 pm wrote:

Haha, I belive it. Luckily, the school around where I am only offers physics and math at the standard level.

Then you should definitely go to this school. SL Physics and Math are challenging but not out of control courses. One advantage of IB physics is that if you decide to drop out of it at the end of grd 11, then regular grade 12 physics is like a stroll in the park. There were a bunch of people in my class who got 70's in IB physics went into regular and got 95%! With Math you cover the entire First term university calculus and about 25-30% of first year Linear Algebra, which could make life a lot easier at uni.

[Prabhakar Ragde]

Drew416 @ Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:52 am wrote:

Grade 12 is 80% theory and very little programming anyways so it's not a huge problem that they cannot go into great depth with it.

On the contrary, it's a bigger problem. At least with shallow coverage of programming, there is a machine to show you that you're doing things wrong. Theory is important going forward, and there's no "reality check" on misconceptions. --PR

[[Gandalf]]

Drew416 @ 2009-04-17, 3:52 am wrote:

With Math you cover the entire First term university calculus and about 25-30% of first year Linear Algebra, which could make life a lot easier at uni.

Your high school's IB math courses may cover some universities' entire first year calculus. I've talked to some people who hadn't even started differentiation until their second term. But most of the time universities offer varying difficulties of first and second year courses, especially in math. Just a small nit-pick.

[Prabhakar Ragde]

[quote="[Gandalf] @ Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:06 pm"]
Your high school's IB math courses may cover some universities' entire first year calculus. I've talked to some people who hadn't even started differentiation until their second term.[/quote]

Where? This is too sensible to be believed.

"Cover" as in "take a quick look at the topic", not "cover" as in "do the same job that the university will do". --PR

[[Gandalf]]

Prabhakar Ragde @ 2009-04-17, 4:16 pm wrote:

Where? This is too sensible to be believed.

Regarding the first or second sentence?

I wasn't saying that any high school covers your average university calculus course, IB or not. On the contrary, I was saying that they will "take a quick look at the topic", and barely even that for the 'more advanced' first year courses. However, I've heard at least one story of people spending half of first year reviewing logarithms and such. I have only heard of this, hence the "may".

Heh, I see my name has thwarted yet another quote. Blame phpBB!

[Sniper4Life]

deathblow so your in grade 8?
what kinds of things do you know bout CS?
your lucky IB accepted you
only few people from my school got accepted into there
but only bout 6 applied anyways
or like 11