People tell me Comp.Sci. is a path to unemployment

[jbking]

Leela @ Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:57 pm wrote:

As to the material side - Would you do CS, if you were promissed to spend 4-5 years in a job search and then get paid 30-40k without any job security?

I haven't had that long a drought in my experience, but there have been a few times where it took me a few months to find a job, Aug. 1997-Feb. 1998, December 2004-August 2005 and October 2007-December 2007. In each case one could make a case for why I didn't have any job security in my field of web development using Microsoft technologies. There have been times where I did have to look for a few years to find a job as for example in 2001 I started looking and didn't find something until 2004 which was a few years.

CS is just half of my degree though. The other half is a Math specialty known as Combinatorics & Optimization, which tends to get an eye-rolling reaction 99% of the time. While I did learn things in getting my degree, I'd likely say that 90% of what I use and do now has come from what I've learned on the job over the 11 years that I've been doing this. There will always be a chicken little saying that something is horrible. I remember once hearing the story of someone who had a Philosophy degree that got into programming even though he didn't take any CS courses in university, he did get various logical foundations that combined with his ability to learn is what got him as far as it did in the working world. Good luck with your future and do keep in mind the suggestion of trying to align what you like to do with both what strengthens you and in which you are known for being good.

[Zeroth]

I guess its time for me to chime in.

We understand that you feel there are no jobs in the humanities, Leela. Or at least, as it may appear to be. What was your major and thesis, specifically? You should understand that though the market is glutted with PhDs, taking a good hard look at your skillset and knowledge is absolutely key for living a good life. The site you linked, however, is quite... old. In internet terms, its old. Lots of the links are dead. But my perspective is this:

Bachelor's is to prepare and show students what a career in <X> is like, and to give them the necessary skills. Master's is to show what academia is like in <X>. And the PhD is for the truly dedicated and passionate. Of course you have to sacrifice to get a PhD. I could be snarky here, ask if you're expecting jobs to be handed to you, but thats not fair to you, since you've asked a question of us.

Passion is important, especially in computer science. Because only in computer science are you expected to do the equivalent of designing a chemistry experiment your first day. You will spend hours working on homework. You will be awake till 3 am working alone or with team members on big projects. To survive this, you need to have passion.

Leela wrote:

Quote:

It's not a diffrence between male/female or computer geek or not. It is the diffrence between thos that are doing work for the sake of work/money and thoes how have a life long commitment to learning and studying there field of choice.

You sound very young, forgive my rudeness. But I will have to tell you that Santa Clause does not exist, because in the real world people feel very lucky if they can simply tolerate their jobs.

What he was trying to say is that passion and intelligence matter more than being a geek, or being a guy in Computer Science. He was actually trying to be encouraging, trying to deal with the stereotypes and negative issues of the industry. He is young, but he's talented and passionate. Most of us here are. There's one random old guy, but you can ignore his ramblings

The short and simple point of everyone's posts here: Be Passionate, Be Smart, and Be Talented, and you will have a job guaranteed. You just have to work for it. Which is part of the whole Be Smart thing

However, if you are in CS just because of the money, leave. I hate to be the rude one, but too many of us have to deal with the "professionals" that do it solely for the money, and make our lives harder. Look at The Daily WTF for examples of what kind of damage people whom are in it for the money do. Its like being a doctor because of the money. It makes you a subpar doctor, just as lacking the true passion will make you a subpar IT individual. Note that passion does not mean sacrificing family and social life to do work. But it means you are excited to come into work, to solve problems, to fix issues, to make the workplace's technology just a bit better today, or to bring something goddamn cool to the masses.

[Zeroth]

Okay, just a few more thoughts: Pretty much anything in humanities is a huge plus. And I'll explain why: video games. Right now, development studios are desperate to create vivid, realistic worlds and people. If you can code, and have a strong background in culture and history, as I presume you do, then this is a huge plus. You can talk to the programmers, the managers, the executives, and make them see the value in your work. You'd get to be creative, and use your humanities education. I'd hate for you to waste all that time and effort and go straight into a pure CS/IT environment. It would kill you. One key thing to consider is that game studios really want to market games to women. Help them make genuinely fun games for women that don't consist of shopping, makeup, or barbie.

If you need a contact, I do have the personal email of a Senior VP at Black Box Studios, owned by EA.

Edit: One of the names on that page you linked, Annalee Newitz, is now the head editor of io9.com, a sci-fi blog, actually, one of the biggest sci-fi blogs on the internet.
Here's references: http://io9.com/people/Annalee/posts/ and http://archive.salon.com/it/career/1998/11/06career.html

So being in the humanities is NOT a death knell. You just need to find your passion and talk and get out there.

[DemonWasp]

Addendum to Drew's post: but don't think that a business degree is worthless. If you're going to grow beyond a small group (5-10 people), then you need more infrastructure - managers, business types, etc.

[Vermette]

Zeroth @ March 10th 2009, 00:33 wrote:

If you need a contact, I do have the personal email of a Senior VP at Black Box Studios, owned by EA.

hmmm I wonder if he managed to keep his job:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/12/19/ea-blackbox.html?ref=rss

[Zeroth]

Vermette @ Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:35 am wrote:

Zeroth @ March 10th 2009, 00:33 wrote:

If you need a contact, I do have the personal email of a Senior VP at Black Box Studios, owned by EA.

hmmm I wonder if he managed to keep his job:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/12/19/ea-blackbox.html?ref=rss

He did. He just came and talked to us last week.

[[Gandalf]]

McKenzie @ 2009-03-09, 10:07 pm wrote:

The fear in industry is quite the opposite. There are a number of big players who are concerned that because the current CS enrollment is so low there is going to be a crisis in about 5 years where companies will have a hard time finding good grads and will be forced to offer signing bonuses and other incentives.

On the contrary, isn't CS enrollment increasing again? At least, that's the impression I get.

[Prabhakar Ragde]

Not as fast as industry wants. Mind you, they want an employers' market. But independent sources (governments, think tanks) are forecasting shortages. I think they mean shortages of people they can't replace with outsourcing. So look to beyond grunt-level programming.

What field was the OP studying before CS?

[Leela]

OK, guys, I really am sorry that I do not intend to reply to each and every accusation poured my way, because of my time restrains. I will make it very short, trying to clarify the entire "I like Humanities but they don't pay, so I go into Computer Science because I am a shameless opportunist" monstrosity:
1. I do not like Humanities. I never did. I have only managed to land in this program because I got accepted, was offered some money and some security and had no idea what else to do with my life. Most Humanities PhD can tell you the same story.
2. I went into Humanities to begin with because I was too lazy in highschool and did not take the required math courses. Otherwise I would have chosen Computer Science - 100%.
3. If I had the courage I would have changed things long time ago. Unfortunately I waited for too long.
4. I do not know if I can enjoy programming or not because I am a newbie to this field. No one knows whether they are going to like something until they try it. Hence, I am very careful not to proclaim myself as "passionate" about it.
5. I chose very carefully what I should do when I quit my PhD program (which I am going to do, so stop telling me how to work this all out). My considerations were multiple, far from being only based on pay ranges. Otherwise I would have chosen Medicine.

I will to continue this list for a bit longer, when I have some more time.
As for now I bid you all good-bye and good luck.

[Tony]

a few of those points really click with one of "The way I see it" quotes on Starbucks' cups (which I consume excessively).

Quote:

"Failure's hard, but success is far more dangerous. If you're successful at the wrong thing, the mix of praise and money and opportunity can lock you in forever." - Po Bronson, Author of "What Should I Do With My Life"

Perhaps Humanities PhD was not necessary "successful", and yet even moderate amount of opportunity and some money was enough to suck you in for some time. Props for recognizing that you should be looking for something more interesting.

[CodeMonkey2000]

I don't get it. If you didn't like humanities, why did you continue with the major? And then why did you further go on for masters?

[Leela]

Tony @ Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:31 pm wrote:

a few of those points really click with one of "The way I see it" quotes on Starbucks' cups (which I consume excessively).

Quote:

"Failure's hard, but success is far more dangerous. If you're successful at the wrong thing, the mix of praise and money and opportunity can lock you in forever." - Po Bronson, Author of "What Should I Do With My Life"

Perhaps Humanities PhD was not necessary "successful", and yet even moderate amount of opportunity and some money was enough to suck you in for some time. Props for recognizing that you should be looking for something more interesting.

You might be right by pointing this out. In fact, you are right. (I guess...)

[Leela]

CodeMonkey2000 @ Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:38 pm wrote:

I don't get it. If you didn't like humanities, why did you continue with the major? And then why did you further go on for masters?

Because it was very easy. At least to me. I scored very high marks throughout the entire four years of my Bachelors, then was invited to do a Masters by the head of my department, and afterwards was very much encouraged to start a PhD by my faculty members. Once you are in a Humanities program and are faced with the possiblity of either going to work for a minimum wage or continue the illusion of being a useful, "institutionalized" and respected member of your society, the latter is very hard to turn down.

[Zeroth]

Like I said, Humanities doesn't mean crappy "real world" jobs. You have a lot of knowledge and skills, which if you enjoyed the area, would trade off well in a lot of careers, most of which you'd have to invent yourself. But since you don't enjoy humanities, that changes the game.

Take a first year computer programming course. If you enjoy it, then continue, otherwise you aren't wasting your time again. That or find something else. There are very suitable and effective aptitude tests, usually used by job seeker crown corporations.

[Dan]

Zeroth @ 11th March 2009, 8:31 am wrote:

Take a first year computer programming course. If you enjoy it, then continue, otherwise you aren't wasting your time again. That or find something else. There are very suitable and effective aptitude tests, usually used by job seeker crown corporations.

That sounds like a very good idea. Maybe even take one of the first year math courses so you get a full picture (computer science is not just coding by any means). If you do decied to stick with it thoes corses should count as credit for the program.