Turing shouldn't be taught as a starter language anymore.

[S_Grimm]

Vote "yes" or "no". No posts that are just "Turing sucks." If you post, enter a valid reason.

My opinon :
No, because Turing teaches bad habits, like not indenting properly, not double checking the code, because Turing will tell you exactly whats wrong when you run it. I think that Java would be better to teach as a starter language.

[delparnel]

I don't think it should have ever been taught as a starter language.

Languages like Java and Python teach better habits, and try to get rid of the "make it work" path that many people take when writing code.

[Dan]

I voted no becues it is no longer supported by Holt Soft so the langue is effectively dead unless holt gives out the source code and a group starts working on it.

Turing does have some advantages in how simple graphics are and how fast you can get coding somthing. In other langues doing GUI or graphics can be complex and require outside APIs.

As for bad habits, the only ones i see turing giving students is the idea that a complier is the same as an IDE and they don't learn how to complie things from the comand line.

I don't think turing hurts studetns ablity to indent properly, it might make it easy for them to do with it's auto indenting feature but that at least shows them how it should be.

I don't buy the not double checking code either, almost all compliers i have ever used tell you when somthing is wrong and try to do there best to explaint what.

Personaly i think ruby or python would make good starting langues for grade 10s and Java, C and C++ should be thrown in at higher levels.

[Vermette]

I voted no along the same lines as Tony: The lack of support is troubling. There are other starter languages that are still widely supported and accessible to the young beginner crowd. It's not the responsibility of the language to enforce coding conventions like indentation.

Ruby and Python would be fine choices. An overlooked and surprisingly powerful choice is Javascript (the language is better than you probably think). What's necessary is the ability for new students is painless IO, which Turing has.

Really though, the most important goal in high school CS is to expose students to the absolute core concepts of modern languages and programming techniques, and Turning served that goal well for its time (for me, 2000). Those students that get bitten by the bug learn quickly to migrate to more powerful languages anyways when they want to learn more abstract aspects, and there's nothing to stop a teacher from making those options available to eager students.

[btiffin]

I polled No. I'm of the opinion that the first exposure to computer programming should be Assembler.

AND I want students from Ontario to have a fair shake at getting jobs the day they leave school.

Cheers

[md]

btiffin @ 2008-11-04, 1:53 pm wrote:

I polled No. I'm of the opinion that the first exposure to computer programming should be Assembler.

AND I want students from Ontario to have a fair shake at getting jobs the day they leave school.

Cheers

This. Teach programming from the bottom up. Assember (can) be very simple and strait forward, and it gets you into the habit of thinking like a computer.

[Dan]

md @ 4th November 2008, 2:06 pm wrote:

btiffin @ 2008-11-04, 1:53 pm wrote:

I polled No. I'm of the opinion that the first exposure to computer programming should be Assembler.

This. Teach programming from the bottom up. Assember (can) be very simple and strait forward, and it gets you into the habit of thinking like a computer.

I like the bottom up teaching idea as well but my worry with it is that it would scare away students. Alot of students taking computer science in high school do not know much about what computer programming is and persetning it at a level as low as assembly could make alot drop out and lower enrolment rates.

Vermette wrote:

I voted no along the same lines as Tony The lack of support is troubling.

I am starting to think there is a sick joke going around here on me.

[S_Grimm]

Quote:

I am starting to think there is a sick joke going around here on me.

Other than the spelling mistakes?????
Maybe.............................................

[Vermette]

Dan @ November 4th 2008, 14:37 wrote:

Vermette wrote:

I voted no along the same lines as Tony The lack of support is troubling.

I am starting to think there is a sick joke going around here on me.

Oh man, I chuckle to myself where I saw others doing it, and now here I am...

[S_Grimm]

lets get off the "pick on Tony" subject, shall we? As much fun as it is, it sort of defeats the ppurpose of this poll. I'll create another one called "Is there a joke on Tony. Yes or No?" later.

[Zeroth]

A\V @ Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:35 pm wrote:

lets get off the "pick on Dan" subject, shall we? As much fun as it is, it sort of defeats the ppurpose of this poll. I'll create another one called "Is there a joke on Dan. Yes or No?" later.

Fixed.

[S_Grimm]

oh. sorry Tony. I meant Dan. So like Zeroth Said lets get off the "pick on Dan" subject, shall we? As much fun as it is, it sort of defeats the ppurpose of this poll. I'll create another one called "Is there a joke on Dan. Yes or No?" later.

[md]

Dan @ 2008-11-04, 2:37 pm wrote:

md @ 4th November 2008, 2:06 pm wrote:

btiffin @ 2008-11-04, 1:53 pm wrote:

I polled No. I'm of the opinion that the first exposure to computer programming should be Assembler.

This. Teach programming from the bottom up. Assember (can) be very simple and strait forward, and it gets you into the habit of thinking like a computer.

I like the bottom up teaching idea as well but my worry with it is that it would scare away students. Alot of students taking computer science in high school do not know much about what computer programming is and persetning it at a level as low as assembly could make alot drop out and lower enrolment rates.

See I think this would happen too - but I don't think it's bad. There are a lot of people out there who simply can't grasp the step-by-step nature of programming. They have too much difficulty with the logic and end up as horrible programmers. Is it wrong to artificially exclude them? Possibly. But I cannot see how it's wrong to start off by teaching how to program at the most basic level and letting anyone who can't figure it out fail. I think we'd end up with better programmers too - once you see how C's functions or C++'s classes (and joyous templates!) work at an assembly level you really get a much better feel for how you should apply them and why.

[Vertico]

I somewhat agree with the assembly method mentioned.

Back in high school, we where taught Java and Assembly. Although majority of the class did not like Assembly, I found it to be quite useful and educational.

From what I can tell, I was the only one from that Assembly class who continued down the compsci path.

[jbking]

I wonder if there are some Commodore PETs around that someone could do some assembly programming on. Ah, those are the memories...