???Video Game Design???

[R34P3R]

Hello everyone, I'm just your average guy with a passion for gaming that would like to get into video game design. I have absolutely no programming knowledge. Im a good artist and have some experience with 3d modeling using bryce 5 and AutoCAD (they have nothing to do with game design I know). I was trying to learn c++, but i can't even get my compiler set up in DOS and the tutorial i was using is too vague. Does anybody have any suggestions? Some good sites? Tutorials? What college courses would give me some of the knowledge required for video game design? What kind of knowledge is required to create a game from scratch? Without using game creation software, such as genesis3d. Keep in mind, I have absolutely no knowledge under my belt, I need something for absolute beginners, a good start. Any help would be much appreciated.

[Tony]

To create a game from scratch, by yourself, you need to know everything.

If you have no experience with programming then you should start with the basics, not games. Definitely not 3D games. And most definitely not with C++.

Keep in mind that design (media, 3D, etc) and development (code, etc) are two different fields. One certainly needs both to put together a game, but the two parts don't necessarily have to be done by the same person.

[jeffgreco13]

Yeah for sure Tony's right...
this isn't like Grandma's Boy where you can just make a game all by urself and it be brilliant (Demonic, Gndmas Boy fans know what im talking about) If you really really wanna get into the 3D graphics design aspect you've got to look into Maya as well as some photoshop and illustrator. The programming end takes hours and hours of toiling away.

Maybe you are much better of starting small...

[DemonWasp]

Tony is correct: if you want to make a video game by yourself, you need to know absolutely everything:

- how to program (and program well)
- how to design a (fairly) large project
- how to make models, textures, etc
- how to code difficult bits (the 3d engine and AIs may well be incredibly difficult to get right, depending on the game type)
- how to package all of this for distribution
- how to design a game that's fun to play

Of course, these are all generally assigned to teams (development, architecture, art, and so forth), but it's not impossible for a single person to manage it : just don't expect to have an easy time, produce a professional-quality product, or be done in under a year of solid work.

Since you don't know how to program, you would need to either get started on that, or find someone who's willing to write the game code (and let you worry about design decisions and such). If you go the DIY route, then I strongly suggest you stay the hells away from C/C++ - while they are industry standards for writing game code, both languages are horrifically complex and have a huge set of obscure pitfalls that you have to carefully avoid. Instead, you may be better of choosing a language like Java, VB, or *gasp* Turing (it's available on these boards, and it's an excellent tool for learning to program). Once you know how to program, you can move into the more difficult languages. See the tutorials sections under each of the aforementioned languages and try reading each; if you completely don't understand it, consider taking an introduction-to-programming class at a local university or college.

If you're going to code bits like the 3d engine and AIs (note: there are free, open-source 3d engines for C++ and Java, and possibly several other languages), then you really need some higher education in math and computer algorithms to do so. Pick up an appropriate book (once you've learned how to program, of course).

Your experience modeling and aptitude as an artist lead me to believe that you'd be happiest working on the art while other people do the coding bits, but I could easily be wrong. You are correct in noting that AutoCAD and Bryce5 aren't used in the game industry, but at least you have experience with 3d models. The industry tends to use programs like 3dMax, Blender and so forth.

To actually answer your questions:
Does anybody have any suggestions? - Game programming looks simple, but isn't. There's an awful lot you need to know to make a game, and it's a difficult task for one person (I'm currently working on one, but I can't pretend it has a good chance of ever being very playable).

Some good sites? Tutorials? This one. If you insist on learning C++, then both the tutorial here, and these sites should help: http://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial.html
http://www.cs.brown.edu/courses/cs123/javatoc.htm (this one is best if you start in Java first, then try to move to C++). If you get stuck, you can probably ask for help here (just follow the forum posting guidelines to make sure people want to help).

What college courses would give me some of the knowledge required for video game design? Anything in a university-level computer science degree will help a LOT (though these generally require that you have rudimentary programming knowledge going into them). If you're not going to code, then go for something in 3d art at a college.

What kind of knowledge is required to create a game from scratch (w/o game-creation software)? As said, EVERYTHING. It's a lot of work. If you're really really interested, don't back down, just do the work...but if you're not very committed to this, then you should probably consider joining a team that's already making a game.

[Zeroth]

The work really depends on the scale. Most programmers are capable of hacking out a tetris clone, or a breakout clone. It might take a couple of weeks, depending on the language and libraries. But something of a higher level, like FFVII, well, it took Square a team of about 20 programmers, the same number of animators, three YEARS to complete. It cost them several tens of millions of dollars. That is way out of the scope for any single programmer.

That is to say its not impossible. A group of about four, then six programmers developed a graphically sophisticated FPS that fits into 96K.
http://www.theprodukkt.com/kkrieger

But read their story. It took a lot of time and effort.

What scale are you planning to achieve?

[R34P3R]

Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated. I think I'm going to take a mix of programming and 3d modeling classes at the local college to get a feel for both and hopefully that will help me decide what I want to do. Speaking of Grandmas Boy I watched it the other night on FX, they completely ruined it with all the cut outs and edits, gahh >.<.

[R34P3R]

Zeroth @ Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:00 am wrote:

The work really depends on the scale. Most programmers are capable of hacking out a tetris clone, or a breakout clone. It might take a couple of weeks, depending on the language and libraries. But something of a higher level, like FFVII, well, it took Square a team of about 20 programmers, the same number of animators, three YEARS to complete. It cost them several tens of millions of dollars. That is way out of the scope for any single programmer.

That is to say its not impossible. A group of about four, then six programmers developed a graphically sophisticated FPS that fits into 96K.
http://www.theprodukkt.com/kkrieger

But read their story. It took a lot of time and effort.

What scale are you planning to achieve?

Now that I know a little more about it, I will probably take some programming and design courses like I said, but I'll end up sticking to one of them in the end. I kind of figured it would be nearly impossible for person to single handedly develop a top end game like say assassins creed, fable II, devil may cry 4 etc. Eventually I would like to be involved in something having to do with creating games for next gen consoles, most likely in the art department because that's where I excel. So scale wise, I'd definitely say I want to work on the more complex and innovative games that are being developed for next gen consoles.

[R34P3R]

The tutorial at, http://www.cs.brown.edu/courses/cs123/javatoc.htm#Introduction, is too vague.
Could somebody try to explain this to me please?

[Foo.java]
public class Foo // declare a class Foo
{
protected int _num; // declare an instance variable of type int

public Foo() // declare and define a constructor for Foo
{
_num = 5; //[u]the constructor initializes the _num[/u]
// instance variable
}
}

For the parts of the code that ive underlined, im guessing that isn't an actually part of the code but instructions of what to put after the //. I have no idea what any of it means.[/b]

[Aziz]

Right. There's lots of good Tutorials in the "Tutorials" forum of each Language's section. Be sure to check them out and welcome!

EDIT: Sorry, I though I was the 2nd post. Guess I shouldve refreshed.

[DemonWasp]

The tutorial you're looking at is a Java-to-C++ tutorial, for people who already know Java and are trying to learn C++.

// is the "comment" character, meaning everything following that on the same line is a comment - left by the programmer to make reading the code easier. It explains what the purpose of the code is, while the code tells the machine what to do. Without comments, code can be incredibly hard to read.

Java may not be the best language to begin learning in, to be honest. It's a great language in a lot of ways (very precise), but without knowing a lot about Object-Oriented design before you begin, you're likely to get lost. I would honestly recommend Turing as an excellent starter place (though Python and Pascal may also prove good, I haven't tried them, so I can't recommend them).

[R34P3R]

You would be correct sir, I couldn't even get the simple HelloWorld to run with java. Definitely going to start off with turing.

[Insectoid]

Turing is the language usually taught in grades 10-12. It is mostly for learning common algorithms, because it is quite bad in large projects. It is extremely simple and with some work you can even make 3-d games with it.

I myself have only had 1 semester of schooling in Turing, and have been able to make Breakout with ease (I did spend a lot of free time learning on my own though). I suggest making Pong for your first big project, it is very simple and helps when trying to make larger games later on.

One more thing: Don't download 4.1.1, it can't compile. Download 4.1.

[R34P3R]

Im working with it right now and yes it seems very simple its just a lot to take in and remember, seeing as ive never programmed before... I downloaded 4.1.1 >.<. Once I complete the tutorial I'll go back and get 4.1. I don't see how you could create a game with this, then again i've only used its basic functions so far.

[michaelp]

I'm sure a visit to the Turing Submissions section will change your mind.

[Aziz]

It's a lot of drawing procedures (like Draw.Line) and mouse/getch events