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 A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages
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wtd




PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:43 am   Post subject: A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages

I just finished reading a blog entry. In it the author commented on how his work as a consultant normally has him working on J2EE apps, but that he was assigned to work on a Rails app to satisfy his curiosity, and that of his manager.

He goes on to say that with no prior Ruby or Rails experience, he created an app in 100 hours, that his coworkers estimate would take 550 to 600 hours in a Java/.NET environment. Moreover, that 100 hours included his learning curve. The Java/.NET estimate assumes someone already highly experienced with the language, environment and libraries.

This doesn't surprise me, but I don't want to turn this into a flamefest against Java or .NET. What really gets to me is that he continues, and "admits" that a caveat to Ruby might be finding people to work on projects.

I take issue with this. If he was able to learn the language and the environment, and in a relatively short time produce a rich, highly functional site, then certainly others can. If an "alternative" environment like Rails can make a programmer so much more productive that they can learn the language and the library and produce an app in less time than it would take a programmer highly experienced in a more mainstream environment, then does it not stand to reason that there is a net gain, even if someone is hired with no previous experience in the alternative?

Doesn't that mean that the pool of (for instance) Rails developers really only limited by the number of smart developers out there?

And who really wants to hire the dumb ones anyway?
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Tony




PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:52 pm   Post subject: RE:A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages

I've also heard that many developers (myself included) will pick working with Rails over a pay raise for "conventional" environment (Java or .Net). I think that assumes involvement of equivalent projects.

So developers are happier, produce quality code, faster! And the first companies on the Ruby bandwagon will get to attract all the best developers, possibly for less cost than otherwise.
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
Naveg




PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:59 pm   Post subject: RE:A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages

I think the real issue here is the stigma that employers have about the value of experience. As new tools and environments emerge that are easier to learn and use, an employee's experience has less value than it once did. The author of this article obviously realized this himself, but still subscribes to the idea that experience is everything for some reason.
wtd




PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:08 pm   Post subject: RE:A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages

Indeed. Language bigotry aside, the lack of logic is what irks me.
md




PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:25 pm   Post subject: RE:A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages

So this ruby... it's nice to work with? How much trouble do you think an C++/Pascal based programmer would have picking it up?

I say this as I would eventually like to finish the backend for my website; and replacing the monster that is php with something lighter and faster would be nice.
Cervantes




PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:01 pm   Post subject: RE:A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages

Yes, it is nice to work with. md, you know us well enough that you shouldn't have expected any other answer. It shouldn't be too difficult to get used to. You'll just have to learn the library, and possibly some new concepts. Mixins, blocks.. and some magic, such as method_missing and class_eval. Those sort of things that can make your code extremely dynamic.
wtd




PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:15 pm   Post subject: RE:A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages

As you learn Ruby, I think you will find that if you encounter surprises, they are pleasant ones. Smile
rizzix




PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:31 pm   Post subject: RE:A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages

Using the same line of logic, I could argue that Ruby programmers are infact dumber since the language makes it "easier" to develop a website. There's less effort involved, and things simply work. Where as a Java programmer requires thinking out a lot more on a workable design to fit within the constraints of the limitations of the webframework to create something acceptable.

Well I could argue that, but the thing is programming on J2EE is not all that "difficult". In fact it is just as easy. Therefore I would like to claim that the argument is flawed. You see, most of these articles consider the more mainstream J2EE web-frameworks which include Spring, Struts and Java Faces. While they are nice and very powerful, they are not the simplest and most of them have a relatively steeper learning curve. The fact is there are around 100s of webframeworks for java, some opensourced and some paid-for. Of these, quite a few are pretty good and really simplify web development. I've actually tried some of them and I did find a few of them really easy! Nevertheless, I haven't really done any serious web development yet, so I won't claim anything but I'll say this, you'd need more information and a broader survey of the frameworks (and the developers) to make a solid statement.

I feel that Rails, while good, is really over-rated.
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wtd




PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:54 am   Post subject: RE:A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages

The issue is not one of programmer intelligence. It is purely me taking issue with flawed logic.

Imagine you are experienced with J2EE, and, on a lark, try building a complex site in Rails, which requires you to learn Rails and Ruby from scratch. You find that you are able to complete the site (including testing) in a fifth the time it would take to have built the same site using the J2EE framework of your choosing.

You then say that you found Ruby to be a huge productivity boost, but contend that it could be hard to hire programmers to work with it.

Is this not flawed logic? It would seem obvious that you could simply hire experienced J2EE developers and confidently throw them into Rails development, even if you could not find suitable Ruby developers to hire. This would make the candidate pool at least as large as the pool of Java developers.

The use of Ruby and Java here is not meant to say anything in particular about those two languages. It would just as well apply to others. Perhaps Python and Django vs. ASP.NET.
ZeroPaladn




PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:42 pm   Post subject: Re: A bit of a rant re: "alternative" programming languages

I installed Ruby on my computer a little while ago, and having only decent experience in Turing and little in VB6, I was extrememly skeptical. wtd told me, and convinced me otherwise. I tried it out, and managed to learn the basics of it. It's amazing. The flexibility of the language and the manipulation of the variables is very simple, though takes getting used to. Definatly reccomend it. Now if only I could get it so that i canuse it all the time. I'm severely restricted on my computer, and my father locked down the program shortly after I installed it.

Note to self: get my own computer.
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