Riddle me this, Batman.

[Mazer]

Does anyone happen to know the details involved in a bird (like a raven) folding it's wings back to it's sides after landing? It seems like a pretty awkward thing to accomplish but their wings end up flat (well, curved) against their body. Google turned up:
1) Some guy who actually seems to be trying to accomplish something similar to my own goal (didn't get anything useful from it though)
2) What appears to be lesson plans for elementary school kids examing bird wings and bat (bugs) wings.
3) Some origami. PS, WOW! (it's a PDF)

Well, nothing that answers my question. Any of you happen to know? If you have any diagrams or video show it (skeletal, or otherwise) clearly, please let me know.

[Delos]

I've dug up a couple of interesting papers on the matter. One looks at the Tail patterns of a pigeon during flight, lift off, landing, etc. The other looks at computerizing animations of flight models.
Then there's a book I found with some info on bats (Ha, tie in to the title!) specifically a section on their wings and how they fold.

- TAIL MUSCLE ACTIVITY PATTERNS IN WALKING AND
FLYING PIGEONS (COLUMBA LIVIA). Gatesy and Dial. 1995.

- Animating bird flight using aerodynamics. Ramakrishnananda and Wong. 1999.

- The Biology of Bats. Neuweiler. 2000.

For the bats one, check out pg. 14 for the reference. So, Coutsos, what exactly are you up to?

Edit: BTW, that origami pwns! I'm *so* making that later today

[wtd]

The field you want to look into is biomechanics.

[Mazer]

I'm trying to animate a bird (low poly, for use in a game). It doesn't need to be perfect, but I don't polygons sticking out at obscure angles (does anyone remember the ravens in Metal Gear Solid? When at rest the wings (looks like they were two polygons each) folded upward). And heck, my curiousity won't let go.

[Delos]

wtd has a good point there. I would also suggest going to your local museum and getting your hands on a complete skeleton of a bird. Take as many photos as you can of its wings in various positions and use that to model your animation on.
A good bird anatomy book might be helpful too; depends on how well you can understand the figures. Track down the animation article from above, it's got some pretty pictures in it. It's also full of algorithms, so maybe you'll be inspired.

[Andy]

local museum... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! does windsor even have a museum? i think the closest we have is an art gallery, and by we i mean you. yum, lol!

[Mazer]

Are you referring to the SIGGRAPH article? If so, I've seen it and while the videos were undoubtedly cool to watch, they don't really cover the kind of thing I'm looking for. The one I saw was about modelling a bird's flight using physics, but all I really want is to see how the wing folds.

Anyways, having never actually been to a museum I have to wonder if they'd even let somebody touch a skeleton (or if it would help me... I can imagine the bones moving but I have to see the feathers too). And as jerkface said, I don't know if there is a museum in the area.

[Delos]

I was referring to the one I had mentioned in my first post...as for museums, if you ask *really* nicely they might. Or, you could always walk around for a while until you find a dead bird on the side of the road and use that as your muse. I would wear gloves if I were you.

[Mazer]

Dead birds are sad, Delos. Like, Gladiator sad. 'cept without the crying. Fortunately I can avoid the avian autopsies for now!
Chalk one up for Flickr!
This picture really helped to clear up some misconceptions I had about the layering of the wing. And damn is it a cool picture. not enough bats though

[wtd]

Seriously, though, find a local university and ask if you can talk to a biology professor about this. You'll want to look at how the joints are structured, where the musculature is located, and how tendons and ligaments connect.

[[Gandalf]]

Is it really that important for him to get the wings to fold decently that he would go out and do all this in-depth research? I mean, they don't have to be exactly life-like, just believable. This all seems a bit like overkill to me. Unless you're just that interested in the topic...

Quote:

It doesn't need to be perfect

[Mazer]

Yeah, not really perfect (alot of the detail would probably be lost in this particular case), but it was interesting to know anyway. I think the real problem about going to a biology professor about it (aside from finding one [I don't know any]) is that I'd feel like I'm wasting their time about something pretty insignificant. I'd also be going pretty far out of my way for one question. Unless I were to email a professor...

[wtd]

[Gandalf] wrote:

Is it really that important for him to get the wings to fold decently that he would go out and do all this in-depth research? I mean, they don't have to be exactly life-like, just believable. This all seems a bit like overkill to me. Unless you're just that interested in the topic...

It is a really interesting topic.

[Mazer]

Actually, looking at some of these pictures on Flickr (and the many pictures I've looked through last night) I've begun to notice that birds are really interesting. I probably haven't noticed it before because all of the birds in my area are small and boring (that's when you even see them at all). There's alot of robbins and other such things, or seagulls if you're nearby some abandoned food, but nothing really cool.

[wtd]

Actually, sometimes the small birds are the really interesting ones. You have to take all of that complexity and put it in a small package.

Here's something to think about. How do perching birds sleep and stay perched on a branch?