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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:24 am   Post subject: Windows 8

Here you can criticize or praise Windows 8

What are your initial impressions?
What do you like/dislike?

Overall judgement? etc.

Personally, I don't like it. It feels like they just tacked on a tablet-oriented UI onto Windows 7.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:28 pm   Post subject: Re: Windows 8

Beastinonyou @ Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:24 am wrote:
It feels like they just tacked on a tablet-oriented UI onto Windows 7.

Well they _are_ releasing a tablet...
Latest from Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:06 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

The tablet is kinda the point. The point is pretty much that it is a tablet UI that is tacked onto windows 7.

For me, it's a crappy desktop/laptop OS and I won't update to it. It is however an amazing tablet OS in that every program you already have runs on it, it has full keyboard support (and games might actually use the keyboard instead of just onscreen thumbsticks) and it allows you to the entire freedom you have with desktop computers.

If the pro tablet is priced right then I will almost certainly get it. I don't have a tablet because to me they are useless (no modern games, just arcade like games, no steam, terrible to type anything with, inefficent UI, no sharing of info between apps, and worst of all, no programming on them), but windows 8 and the pro tablet cure most of the problems for me (still typing will be annoying, and it's a 10 inch screen, but at least it's 1080 still).

I doubt that it will be anywhere near as popular as the iPad with casual users, and probably not as popular as android tablets with many in the nerd community, but it might still make a splash, and it works well in a business area. For instance my work will probably be purchasing them because some of the doctors and reserchers have been wanting to use iPad's, but we didn't want to support an entirely new platform just for a couple people, but these tablets will by default already work with our system.

TLDNR: Windows 8 as a desktop/laptop OS: worse than windows 7, too much stuff tacked on
Windows 8 as a tablet OS: Can I haz noa plz?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:38 am   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

I'm not a fan of metro but I love the desktop mode. It's more lightweight than 7 + Vista and has some awesome features, such as more information when copying files/task manager.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:01 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

I don't think I'll ever install windows 8 on a desktop/good laptop. I will however be ecstatic about the release of the windows 8 tablets, and will give the non-ARM surface. (if I can get university textbooks as eBooks perhaps)

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:54 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

I'm sure you've already heard of this but it's interesting nonetheless.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:06 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

Yeah, windows 8 is a terrible direction if your looking from the desktop/laptop perspective. From the tablet perspective, it's amazing though.

Also most of Gabe's complaints have no merit. He thinks they are going to close off everything, and limit competitors access to it. If they really planned on doing that they wouldn't be giving free access to the OS to anyone who wants to download it during nearly the entire development cycle. Also microsoft has lost of money for not giving competitors access to their stuff, and I'm pretty sure they won't go down that road again.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:03 am   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

Except that it's not amazing as a tablet OS. Way too much stuff that still isn't tablet-friendly.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:20 am   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

People are probably going to treat the tablets like consoles in terms of gaming, at least at first. With the iPad, the standardized hardware let people download whatever they wanted and it would just work, as long as it's compatible with iPad 2 or whichever iPad you have. System requirements were a thing of the past; all they had to check was which iPads were supported (if even).

On Win8 tablets, I suspect people are going to act the same way, and then there's going to be an uproar when Half-Life 3 doesn't run on their tablet and they don't know why. There are people who've never installed a PC game. They grew up with consoles where the game just works. These same people play games on iPads or iPhones, and they will play games on Win8 tablets. Win8 will be the first time these people ever have to consider system requirements, and it will take them by surprise.

Btw, that last paragraph is pure speculation, however I think it very likely for much of the 12-and-under crowd. At any rate, you can usually trust Gabe's business sense. Just because Microsoft is giving early Win8 access to devs, doesn't mean Win8 is dev-friendly. It will let devs be even lazier in their console-to-PC ports though; they can just list a game controller with thumbsticks as a system requirement and drop keyboard/mouse support altogether.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:59 am   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

How??? How does windows 8 magically allow developers to list a game controller with thumbsticks as a system requirement on a device that's harder to get a game controller than it is on PC.

The ports of console-PC aren't going to get lazier, the only difference is there is now a touch screen, and they could make use of the touch screen. What will get lazier is PC-tablet ports, because everyone has a keyboard, so games can finally support it on tablets. (I hate onscreen controls for 90% of touch screen games, they are just lazy mimics of a keyboard and mouse).

I agree about the requirements thing, it was the exact same when people started using android, and iPhone started coming out with new generations (only recently did iOS get support for telling people they can't play games, before that it was a pain in the ass because games wouldn't tell you their specs, and they wouldn't play on older generations sometimes). If anything windows 8 tablets are the most friendly to it, because stores can easily query all the available hardware (just like they have for all of windows history) and tell a user whether they can run them. There's also that windows score that could be used.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:00 am   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

- redesigned task manager
- somewhat faster
- fewer huge sections of "glass" in Aero-based UI
- hybrid boot is cool
- "snap" still works

- new UI that ignores all previous UI research Microsoft has ever conducted
- Ribbon UI in Explorer
- forced integration of other Microsoft ecosystem (xbox live, etc)
- still no support for non-NFTS, non-FAT filesystems
- still no good default shell
- still no package management (though there is the Windows Store)
- still no open specification of their RAID and RAID-like systems, so good luck using those from other operating systems
- still consumes 15+GB
- still has limited recovery tools and options
- still no live-CD option
- still no multiple desktop
- everything seems to be very closed-off, very locked-down, very Microsoft-only

Good and Bad:
- locked down version of IE10 (good: security; bad: lockdown)

Overall, it looks like it'll be a fun system to play around with or have on your console. I would really prefer my development workhorse to be powered by Linux though -- the ecosystem there is superior for developers (though inferior for gamers and people who like Flash video).

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:09 am   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

Lol so most of the bad points aren't things they added, but rather the fact it isn't linux. I agree that this is never going on my development laptop, and I sincerely hope my work machine won't be "upgraded". But I am for sure getting the first tablet that I can actually program on, with a decent IDE, and compilation on the device. (and the use of nearly any programming language, being able to use all of them on the device). While I won't be doing major devving on the device, it gives me something fun to do while I sit on the bus.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:40 am   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

Fun will likely be a placebo effect with a Windows 8 tablet. With an iPad you can't go wrong.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:21 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

Considering the controller argument, it doesn't seem impossible that games devs would agree on a standard game controller layout (let's call it SGC). This layout would closely match existing game controllers for easy porting. Then you just need hardware manufacturers to release cheap SGC-compliant controllers and list an SGC-certified controller as a requirement. As it takes off, higher-end manufacturers would make high-quality SGC controllers. Not saying it will happen, but that it could. The tablet industry is still so young there's no telling what will happen and this seems viable.

Now for something completely different. The iPad has a major benefit Windows does not: It's 99% idiotproof. Users don't get to see files. Users don't get to tweak the OS. Users don't get to install anything non-Apple approved without jailbreaking. The iPad is a closed system. Win8 is not.

Openness is important for general computing because the people who know what they're doing need to be able to do the things they know how to do. However, it's also important to not let people who don't know what they're doing do the things they don't know how to do. When I worked in a tech shop, most of the issues were caused by people touching things they had no business touching. Even if the iPad had a system32.exe, you could not delete it. Depending on the audience, the closed model of the iPad is its greatest strength and most crippling weakness.

Win8 tries to offer the power and openness of a desktop operating system with the closedness of a tablet system. It won't work. The ignorant tablet users will go into desktop mode and screw around with files. They'll still happily install scareware, because just being on a tablet doesn't make you immune to idiocy. The people who *do* know what they're doing will be putting up with loads of extra anti-idiot safeguards that hinder their project.

Closed systems are good for the people that need them. Open systems are good for the people that need them. Mixed systems are no good for anyone.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:02 pm   Post subject: RE:Windows 8

The iPad is already losing out on the tablet market for most of the reasons you already described. Windows 8 isn't a mixed system, it's a touchscreen based interface mixed with a marketplace/app system tacked on top of a fully usable OS. You can completely ignore anything but the normal OS if you wish, which makes it the first general purpose tablet, and the first tablet where you could actually seriously consider replacing a laptop.

I never thought that the freedom windows 8 gave people could be considered against it lol, especially considering android has been dominating in the phone marketplace for that very same reason (I'm not sure about tablets since it's still new there).

Also the controller won't work for the same reason detachable keyboards don't work with other tablets. If not everyone has it, it's useless. If they don't force everyone to have it, most won't. And plus a controller is hella awkward to carry compared to a tablet.
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