Computer Science vs. Software Engineering

[daemonic9]

I've read through every thread I could find on this matter and am still unable to come to a decision. I'm referring to the programs at UW, by the way.

So, I have a few questions I was hoping could be answered.

Assuming all things else equal, which program would allow me to secure a better first coop job? Also, would it be reasonable to seek out a coding job (not QA or testing) in first year?
Is it common for a CS major to be more limited in career prospects for not having an engineering degree?
Do any employers consider one more difficult, prestigious, etc. than the other?
At UW, is conflict between the two programs common? As in, SE students consider themselves elite to CS students or vice versa.
Does the theory CS students do in lower year courses give them an advantage over SE students in upper year CS courses?

I think the main problem I'm having is that although I like the flexibility of the CS degree, I feel like my career would ultimately be more limited than if I went into SE.
Furthermore, I think that CS majors are so common that I'd consider myself "just another IT guy" whereas if I was in SE I'd feel more respected or something.
I'm going to apply to both programs anyway (and have no doubt that I'll be accepted to both), but I'd still appreciate the input.

Thank you.

[Tony]

- For first job, I don't think CS vs. SE matters. If you are confident in your skills, it would be preferable to get a coding job as the first job, but such are rare.
- CS is negligibly more limited than SE. Technically they can't sign off on Engineering documents in Canada (doesn't matter if you go into States, which is where the bulk of the high paying jobs are anyway)
- With co-op, employers will judge you on your skills and work experience, over the degree name.
- Every technical program will have a bit of a superiority complex, over every other technical program. So yes, they both do.
- I don't know who would perform better in upper year CS courses.

In summary: doesn't really matter. I've seen everyone from http://compsci.ca/blog/6-degrees-of-computer-science/ (+ Nanotech Engineering) hired into the same top-tier "software" jobs.

[Dan]

daemonic9 @ 17th November 2011, 10:56 pm wrote:

Does the theory CS students do in lower year courses give them an advantage over SE students in upper year CS courses?

I can't speak for Waterloo, but what i have seen from TAing upper year and graduate CS courses is that the CS students tend to have their marks distributed prity well on the bell curve while the engineering students who chose to do the same upper year CS courses tend to be on the middle to upper part of the curve.

Why? Because in most cases CS students are forced to do the upper year CS courses while the engineering students take it as an elective. Meaning that engineering students that are not interested or good at subjects such as advanced compiler design just don't take them (or take them and drop out before it counts against them) while the CS students must to complete the course to get their degree. I would assume at most universities that software engineering students have their own upper year courses offered by their department which they would take rather then the CS ones.

I can tell you that things are quite different in the first year CS courses however. Form what I have seen of them, the engineering students tend to do much more poorly and have a higher failure rate then the CS students. This is likely due to it being the first time they are introduced to CS concepts and programming, while many CS students studies it in high school. In my case it may also have to do with my university having far more engineering student spaces then CS students, meaning they admit more engineers each year then CS students creating more of a mix of quality in the engineering department in the first years (in till some are weeded out).

Also purely from anecdotal evidence, it would seem that engineering students tend to push the envelope far more in terms of academic dishonesty then their CS counter parts in the lower years. But again this could just be a case of their being more of them were i am and confirmation basis taking effect as i don't exctactly keep a spread sheet of academic dishonesty stats or anything.

Edit:

tony wrote:

In summary: doesn't really matter. I've seen everyone from http://compsci.ca/blog/6-degrees-of-computer-science/ (+ Nanotech Engineering) hired into the same top-tier "software" jobs.

It would be great to see an updated version of that blog post with some of the newer degrees added, like "biotechnology", "bioinformatics", "computational science", "management information systems", "nanotech", "quantum computing" (tho that is noramly a specialization of CS), etc.[/quote]

[daemonic9]

Thanks for the comments, guys. Just a few more questions.

Tony @ Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:19 pm wrote:

- For first job, I don't think CS vs. SE matters.
If you are confident in your skills, it would be preferable to get a coding job as the first job, but such are rare.

How rare? Would rare jobs be obtained mostly from high grades, work experience, or connections?

Quote:

Technically they can't sign off on Engineering documents in Canada (doesn't matter if you go into States, which is where the bulk of the high paying jobs are anyway)

Would it really be of any advantage to be able to do so? Is the average salary posted on UW's coop site a good indication of how much I'll be making? As in, is it lowered substantially by non-cs math students, or something?
Oh, and what percent (roughly) of CS jobs are outside of Canada?

Quote:

I don't know who would perform better in upper year CS courses.

Hmm, I expected CS students to perform better due to their more rigorous math courses.

[Tony]

Development jobs are "rare" in a way that, lacking experience, those jobs would typically go to second-year students. So you'd have to wait for the bulk of more experience students to get out of the system, before available jobs are exhausted. Grades, experience, and connections can all be helpful.

re: Professional Engineering in Canada -- strictly speaking, it's not a disadvantage. But it's relevant only for a small number of very specific positions. Control software capable of hurting people, that sort of thing.

Average salary is just that -- average. The University tries to make it very difficult for you to actually negotiate for anything, so try to research positions ahead of time. I would imagine that people finding jobs outside of the system will average higher rates. (I have also seen a number of Engineers hired for minimum wage, by sketchy companies.)

The bulk of posted jobs are in Ontario. It seems that most students are reluctant to travel, so the moment you apply to anything outside of Toronto/Waterloo, you are at an advantage.

[daemonic9]

Tony @ Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:19 pm wrote:

In summary: doesn't really matter. I've seen everyone from http://compsci.ca/blog/6-degrees-of-computer-science/ (+ Nanotech Engineering) hired into the same top-tier "software" jobs.

Not Systems Design Engineering, though?

[Tony]

hah, right. No one knows what they do.

[SmokeMonster]

daemonic9 @ Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:54 pm wrote:

How rare? Would rare jobs be obtained mostly from high grades, work experience, or connections?

With your first co-op position grades while not the sole determining factor are helpful, experience helps as well but to be honest on a certain level it's a crapshoot. There's a deal of luck involved since the employers have so little to judge you by or to differentiate you from other students. There are some employers who would throw your resume in the trash if some bullet points on the resume end with a period and others don't (seriously). UW has a stream where you can do 3 study terms and then go on your co-op, that might be something to consider. As far as CS vs SE I don't think it matters either way.

[randint]

Obviously, it will depend on what you want. If you want to do math, go for CS [people in CS get a better math education than the people in SE], but if you are more interested in Physics and/or Chemistry, then SE is better.

Flexibility also matters, if you want to double-major in something, then it is nearly impossible if you are in SE, take UW for example, SE students take 6 courses per semester whereas CS students take 5, again, if you are interested in something else as well, you are free to take it in CS.

[mar5000k]

What stuffs that can be done by Computer scientists and which can't be done by software engineers and viseversa?????

[mirhagk]

Nothing. Nothing at all. The degree the person has has little effect on their actual abilities. In theory software engineers are better with constructing and managing programs and computer scientists are better with algorithms, but that's not what actually happens.

[mar5000k]

What advantages each of the 2 above has over the other??