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 Question about CCC
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mirhagk




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:20 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

There's no compilation, however it does allow you to check manually to see if someone cheated or not, very easily.
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Tony




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:24 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

Checking every submission manually is _much_ more work than having to install some new language every once in a while.

Besides, there's no way for you to know if my random blurb of bits is garbage or a legitimate solution in some esoteric programming language that you don't recognize.
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:29 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

Okay say there are 5 questions. And for each question there is 3 VERY similar data sets, to the point that they have the same tricks or w/e, but produce slightly different outputs. Then if someone cheats for all 5 questions, they have a 1/(3^5) chance of getting it right, which works out to about 0.4% of getting it correct. You can see how easily someone who cheats can be noticed. Then all you need to check is all the people who cheated (ie uploaded the WRONG output data, but that matches a different input data).

Chances are that someone won't get a problem wrong, and have it be right for one of the other 2 data sets, so you have a pretty good chance they are cheating already. If the code looks like it does something, then they can be cleared. Even if it's some strange esoteric language your unfamiliar with, you can request that they send a video of them compiling the problem themselves using that as the source, or you could try and do it.

Yes it will require some manual work, but only for those that cheat, and manage to cheat effectively enough to provide source code that isn't just gibberish, or is a esoteric language.
Tony




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:52 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:Question about CCC

I would argue your every point, but
mirhagk @ Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:29 pm wrote:
you can request that they send a video of them compiling the problem themselves using that as the source, or you could try and do it.

I'm now convinced that you are just trolling.

No, them sending me their compiler and video is not "less work" than me installing that compiler myself ahead of time.
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:05 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

This is considering the very worst most extreme case, where they are using a programming language you have never heard of, and it's so esoteric that's it's not even remotely readable.

I'm just saying that it's not really likely for someone to get away with cheating, the only way it's possible is for someone to send their source code to someone else, and they alter it, but that's already possible.
Tony




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:15 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

Point is -- you fail to convince me that putting in effort into rewriting the system and retraining existing users will provider at least as much benefit over any timeline.
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:20 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

Okay, well how much effort will it be to get the linux computer to properly run C# .NET programs? Because all of my school (at least 10 students) will be competing using C#, so I'm assuming you won't want to do it manually.

My point is that it's definitely a better system, and only requires work once, for every language, instead of new work for each language. So if adding new languages takes x1 amount of time, and converting the system takes x2 amount of time, what value of n would make n*x1>x2? If it's a low value, such as 1 to 4 it may be a better option, requiring less work.
A.J




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:24 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

DWITE purpose isn't *solely* to train high school students for contests such as ECOO and CCC, but to also be its own unique experience. Also, regarding cheating, like most online contests we are kind of going by the honor system here. I mean I don't know why someone will cheat in a contest where don't really gain any prize (except for knowledge, which cheating doesn't help you gain).
Tony




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:24 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

DWITE already supports C# http://dwite.org/judge Let me know if there's a different version of the compiler that you want to use.
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:19 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

Alright well if it's not compatible with the compiler, who's fault is it? ie, if it doesn't run on the system because of different versions/libraries and what not, do I fail the question, or does it get marked manually?

For instance some code I just wrote for the purpose of testing algorithms and contest problems won't compile on the 2005 compiler (or the 2007 compiler) since it uses duck typing. Similarly C# 4.0 also uses optional parameters, and a couple other goodies.

And C# 3.0 uses features I use very commonly, for instance inline object and collection initializes, extension methods, and my personal favourite, lambda expressions (makes using sort functions SO much easier)
Tony




PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:37 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

If you choose to not follow instructions and choose to submit against a wrong compiler then... we give you an error message and another chance to do things right. If your code doesn't compile the second time as well, then yeah... you fail.

I mean sure, if your high school homework doesn't compile you could argue your way into some part marks. But I think it's a reasonable expectation to have you at least try to compile the code yourself before submitting it for grading. If it doesn't, no other contest will give you any marks just the same.
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:25 am   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

That's not true, the CCC, the ECOO, and the Google code jam don't care what compiler you use. The code is 100% valid C# code, it's just modern, and doesn't run on old compilers.

Basically C# is supported, but not modern C#, which is another good reason for the ECOO/Google code jam model, since it will allow people to use new features, and not have to revert to using older, less efficient methods.

I should make sure my code compiles and runs fine, I should not have to know the exact compiler you use, and make sure I have a copy of that, just to make sure that it works on your system.
Tony




PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:28 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:Question about CCC

mirhagk @ Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:25 am wrote:
That's not true, the CCC, the ECOO, and the Google code jam don't care what compiler you use.

What part was "that" referring to? The rest of that sentence did not seen directly relevant to anything I've said last. You are still wrong anyway. CCC (Stage 2) is _very_ restrictive http://www.cemc.uwaterloo.ca/contests/computing/details.html#languages
Quote:

For Stage 2, competitors must use Pascal and/or C/C++.

Stage 1 (and ECOO) does the same has some restrictions along the lines of "any programming language which is supported at their school". Lacking strict on-site supervision, the "which is supported" part is moved from school to DWITE.

mirhagk @ Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:25 am wrote:

I should not have to know the exact compiler you use, and make sure I have a copy of that, just to make sure that it works on your system.

You should know the exact compiler that your school supports. Similarly, you should know the exact compiler that DWITE supports.
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
mirhagk




PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:02 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

The "that" refers to the fact that you said we'd get no marks for code that is 100% valid, just isn't supported by your compiler.

And the HUGE difference between knowing which lanugage is supported at your school, and at dwite, is that you can change it to get the version you'd like.
Tony




PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:10 pm   Post subject: RE:Question about CCC

I've said
Tony @ Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:37 pm wrote:
But I think it's a reasonable expectation to have you at least try to compile the code yourself before submitting it for grading. If it doesn't, no other contest will give you any marks just the same.

If you submit code to CCC that does not compile, then you fail every test case and end up with a 0.

And just as you can ask your school to support a new language, you can ask me to extend the list of languages/versions on DWITE.
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
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