Good folks, suggestion please.

[armstrong800]

Hi all,

Today(May 31) at 7ish PM Toronto U Scarborough emailed me my acceptance to their co-op computer science. I am having mixed feelings now and your constructive advice will be much appreciated.

Some of you might recall that I had a post in mid April about an offer from Carleton U software engineering co-op that required me to reply by April 25th. Without knowing if I would be accepted by the other two schools (Waterloo SE & Toronto) I accepted their offer through Carleton's website, however even now on OUAC no offers nor acceptance of offers had been updated (those two columns are just blank for all three schools.)

I have been working and living in Ottawa for the last 5 years after graduating from Algonquin College's electronics engineering tech. During the last 5 years I gradually realized that I am indeed into computer and software. Before I thought I was just into games that was why I didn't choose computer related program at Algonquin.

I am committed to enter a school this fall. For those who have been there, done that, can you tell me your experience at Carleton or Toronto U Scarborough for the specific majors? I want to land a good job after school so which one do you think has a better reputation in computer science/ software engineering? I will work hard in either school as I pay for the school with my hard earned savings.

In addition, if I dump Carleton's offer now, will there be bad consequences? I will really feel apologetic if I will do that as I am not a person who easily break promises. Going to Toronto U means that I will have to move from one city to another, and it will be more expensive to live and study there, but if I get a consensus from you guys that it's worth it then it will be anything goes for me.

Eagerly awaits your opinions.

[Tony]

My personal understanding is that all of UofToronto's reputation, good profs, strong programs, and the excitement of "living in Toronto" come solely from its downtown campus. I'd have strong recommendations towards St. George campus _but_ (it's a fairly big but), I don't think that any of those benefits transfer well to their satellite campuses.

This isn't a "you should do this" answer (it rarely is, for such kind of questions). It's more of a warning that when you are reading up on either University, the particular campus matters.

[armstrong800]

Tony @ Tue May 31, 2011 10:38 pm wrote:

My personal understanding is that all of UofToronto's reputation, good profs, strong programs, and the excitement of "living in Toronto" come solely from its downtown campus. I'd have strong recommendations towards St. George campus _but_ (it's a fairly big but), I don't think that any of those benefits transfer well to their satellite campuses.

This isn't a "you should do this" answer (it rarely is, for such kind of questions). It's more of a warning that when you are reading up on either University, the particular campus matters.

I see. So does anyone know where does UTSC stand in terms of its compsci quality of education and reputation? I don't seem to be able to find any reviews on that.

[mikazo]

I'm in Computer Science (as opposed to Software Engineering) at Carleton, so I think the professors might be different, but I can give some thoughts on Carleton in general.

As I'm sure you know from living in Ottawa, Carleton has a nice campus. They're just finishing construction of two big new buildings on campus, and I think one of them is for computer science/software engineering. I haven't really heard much (good or bad) about Carleton's reputation for comp sci/soft eng degrees. One of the reasons I came to Ottawa was because there is a good selection of tech companies in town and/or Kanata for co-op. I have enjoyed myself so far, and I don't feel like I picked the wrong school (my choices were Carleton, Waterloo and Nipissing). Most of the professors seem to be knowledgeable in their subject, although I had some language barrier issues with some math professors.

One bad thing I can say about Carleton is that their grading system as far as calculating your CGPA isn't very fair. Your percentage mark in a course translates to a letter grade, which counts as so many points toward your CGPA. 80-100% gets you an A-, A, or A+. But then 60-80% can get you anywhere from a C- to a B+. In other words, it's more difficult to get a high mark because of the non-uniform translation of percentage grade into letter grade. This means it can be easy to let your CGPA drop, and it will be even harder to get it back up to where it was, since you need to get higher marks to bring the average up.

http://www.carleton.ca/calendars/ugrad/current/regulations/acadregsuniv2.html#2.3

Also, I don't know if this is any indication of the future, but Carleton had a support staff strike when I started in 2007, and very narrowly avoided a professor/TA strike this past school year.

Overall, I'd say I'm really enjoying Carleton so far. I have one school year left until I graduate, and I'm just doing my last co-op term this summer. Hope this helps.

[armstrong800]

Mikazo,

That's the kind of personal experience I was looking for. I really appreciate that. Can you tell me how related are the coop jobs to what you learned? Did/do you feel what you learn in school is enough for those jobs? How diligent are most classmates? Are they mostly on the same level or vary significantly enough that the profs have to take care what they teach to not to lose some students? Are the lessons require genuine efforts to achieve true understanding and good marks? And lastly how big is the class? Sorry for so many questions. I need to get a picture of the quality of education to make the decision.

Thanks a lot

[z_cross_fire]

Tony @ Tue May 31, 2011 10:38 pm wrote:

My personal understanding is that all of UofToronto's reputation, good profs, strong programs, and the excitement of "living in Toronto" come solely from its downtown campus. I'd have strong recommendations towards St. George campus _but_ (it's a fairly big but), I don't think that any of those benefits transfer well to their satellite campuses.

This isn't a "you should do this" answer (it rarely is, for such kind of questions). It's more of a warning that when you are reading up on either University, the particular campus matters.

I don't think UTSG has co-op, although UTSC does...

[Tony]

z_cross_fire @ Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:13 pm wrote:

I don't think UTSG has co-op, although UTSC does...

UTSG has PEY

[[Gandalf]]

Tony @ 2011-05-31, 10:38 pm wrote:

My personal understanding is that all of UofToronto's reputation, good profs, strong programs, and the excitement of "living in Toronto" come solely from its downtown campus. I'd have strong recommendations towards St. George campus _but_ (it's a fairly big but), I don't think that any of those benefits transfer well to their satellite campuses.

This isn't true. The two satellite campuses, UTM and UTSC both offer just as great profs on average, and perhaps even better because you don't get as many sessional lecturers. Unless your goal is to get lectured by Steve Cook (which is still quite doable by taking a course at St. George) the difference in profs shouldn't affect you a lot. The reputation and opportunities transfer over pretty much 100%, plus you get the benefits of making use of your own campus' opportunities when that benefits you. The courses are in some cases less challenging, and in some cases more so. Nothing surprising there. Also, you also get all the advantages of small classes, which I couldn't stress enough.

The downside to the satellite campuses is the loss of the downtown experience, with the bustle of top notch start ups and research projects happening right beside you. The other main perks to St. George are the sheer amount of people you can mingle with, more to do between classes, and the amount of crazy electives you can take. Personally, I think probably the best thing about a campus like St. George or a university like UWaterloo is the sheer amount of brilliant people you can meet, argue with, etc. However, there are inspiring people throughout the three campuses and across the GTA, and anyways, no one dumb is making it past 2nd year CS.

[[Gandalf]]

Tony @ 2011-06-01, 6:38 pm wrote:

z_cross_fire @ Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:13 pm wrote:

I don't think UTSG has co-op, although UTSC does...

UTSG has PEY

If you take the initiative to get a summer or part time job related to CS (which shouldn't be a problem if you're doing well in school of have previous experience) and enroll in PEY, then you could graduate with over two full years of experience. And you'd still be graduating around the same time as co-op students.

[mikazo]

armstrong800,

I've really enjoyed not having to travel and find accommodation for co-op jobs, they're all within traveling distance of where I live in Ottawa (near Carleton). On multiple occasions, I've had the chance to apply what I've learned in school during co-op, the first things that come to mind being object-oriented design principles, and algorithm efficiency considerations.

I've had the chance to learn about myself too, what specific area of computer science I enjoy most. I've had the chance to do embedded C development, virtualization, quality assurance, and J2EE technologies. I learned what I like most and least about each, which has made it easier to focus on what I'd like to make a career out of.

I was honestly pretty scared the first day of my first co-op, whether I had learned enough in school to do the job well. But once they tossed me head first into a gigantic C++ project, I ended up learning a ton. Since then I've gained confidence in my ability to pick up on things at the start of a new job, which is a valuable state of mind to have.

As for classmates, I'm not sure everyone is at the same level of knowledge or work ethic, even in third year classes. Just last term, I had issues with a partner in a project, who was doing what work and how much of it, etc. At the third year level, a student shouldn't have to worry about those kind of problems, and should just be able to focus on the course content.

Some professors are quite good at imparting what they need to, some professors plough ahead, leaving those that can't keep up behind, and some professors don't make the course engaging enough. That could just be my personal view, but I look forward to learning as much as I can from a course.

As for lessons, it really depends on the course. Most courses have a good balance of assignment difficulty, although how much each one is worth is sometimes a little strange. My favourite course for marks allocation was 4 assignments worth 20% each and a final worth 20%. Unfortunately, most courses don't follow that framework. It is common to see a final exam worth 40% or even 50% of a final grade (not always comp sci courses).

For class size, I'd say the biggest (in comp sci) I've seen is probably 60, the smallest 20, the average about 30. As you progress, more and more people drop out, but third year classes are still typically about 25-30 students. Most comp sci courses have only one TA, but some have two. I've never really made use of TAs though (just my style of learning, I'd rather do it myself).

Lots of questions make for a lengthy answer.

Hope this helps.

[z_cross_fire]

Tony @ Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:38 pm wrote:

UTSG has PEY

Hmm, didn't know that. I always thought that UTSC had co-op (in the form of PEY) and UTSG didn't. That's why I ended up applying for UTSC.

And yea, in terms of professors, U of T has many recognized ones, compared to other uni's.

[armstrong800]

mikazo,

Thanks so much for sharing your valuable experience of your studying at Carleton. it reminds me of my days at the college. Just like you said, some profs know the stuff like the back of their hand, but doesn't know how to convey the idea, which I found very frustrating, but then again it forces students to develop self-teaching skill, which is not necessary a bad thing.

I think you will find that even at work place there are people who are just not self-initiated. And if you are a person who's eager to get stuff done then people like that will always drag you down. Knowing how it's like and maybe find ways to deal with them will be useful in a long run.

Thanks again for sharing.

[mikazo]

I'm glad I could help. Hopefully I'll be able to find a job after I graduate where everyone is as motivated as I am.

Let us know what school you pick, when you do decide!

[armstrong800]

Today I went to the welcome seminar at UTSC. I was able to speak with a local high school graduate. Just like some of you have mentioned, he also recommended downtown campus for computer science. Do anyone know how easy/hard it will be to transfer from UTSC to UTSG for compsci?