UW breadth and depth requirements

[bbi5291]

Why is it that only the CS programs in the Faculty of Mathematics have breadth and depth requirements? (I know other programs in Math require some number of non-Math courses, but that's not really the same.) Yes, I get why they exist --- to broaden the student's horizons and such. But as far as I know, other universities usually require them for all students, not just students in specific programs. Does this reflect a judgement that, in the absence of breadth and depth requirements, CS students are likely to be the least well-rounded out of all Math students?

[Tony]

bbi5291 @ Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:42 pm wrote:

as far as I know, other universities usually require them for all students, not just students in specific programs.

Then the question should be -- why do non-CS Math students not have the same requirements.

P.S. in the current Calendar the Breadth and Depth requirements are actually relaxed from previous years.

[Brightguy]

bbi5291 @ Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:42 pm wrote:

(I know other programs in Math require some number of non-Math courses, but that's not really the same.)

I believe it is a Faculty-wide policy that a full 25% of your 20 units required to graduate must be non-math. Annoying, but at least they don't do the CS six-step-checklist thing; probably because it would make things needlessly complex and be a pain to coordinate with every program in the Faculty.

[bbi5291]

Tony @ Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:41 pm wrote:

Then the question should be -- why do non-CS Math students not have the same requirements.

Yes, that was pretty much my question.

Quote:

P.S. in the current Calendar the Breadth and Depth requirements are actually relaxed from previous years.

I don't have a problem with taking non-Math courses, but I wish the University had better non-Math courses to offer, at least in the areas that interest me. Actually, I'd like to take fewer Math courses. The requirement of 27 Math courses total for my degree is unreasonable, in my opinion.

Brightguy @ Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:35 pm wrote:

I believe it is a Faculty-wide policy that a full 25% of your 20 units required to graduate must be non-math. Annoying, but at least they don't do the CS six-step-checklist thing; probably because it would make things needlessly complex and be a pain to coordinate with every program in the Faculty.

If the answer is that it would be too much work to have this six-step checklist for all programs in Math, then there still remains the question of why it's so important for CS to have it rather than any other program. To me it seems rather as though they trust non-CS Math students to use their non-Math units for a useful liberal curriculum but think that CS students would only take bird courses if given the chance, because we're... only interested in CS and no other fields, or some stereotype like that?

[Brightguy]

bbi5291 @ Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:49 pm wrote:

The requirement of 27 Math courses total for my degree is unreasonable, in my opinion.

Why? For a math degree, shouldn't the math classes be the mandatory ones?

bbi5291 @ Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:49 pm wrote:

To me it seems rather as though they trust non-CS Math students to use their non-Math units for a useful liberal curriculum but think that CS students would only take bird courses if given the chance

Maybe the CS overseers aren't happy with some of the courses the math students end up taking? Ultimately, the answer to your question may lie somewhere within an impressive hierarchical labyrinth of committees. (Sometimes I'm amazed the University gets any work done at all.)

[bbi5291]

Brightguy @ Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:40 pm wrote:

bbi5291 @ Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:49 pm wrote:

The requirement of 27 Math courses total for my degree is unreasonable, in my opinion.

Why? For a math degree, shouldn't the math classes be the mandatory ones?

Oh, sure. But 27 is too many. At MIT, for example, you only need to take 8 math courses in order to be a math major. And MIT math majors are certainly at least as good as Waterloo math majors (I would say they tend to be better, in fact, but a lot of people disagree). Really, it's understood that a person who wants a math degree will usually take lots of math courses just out of interest --- there's no reason to force them to take at least some large number.

Quote:

bbi5291 @ Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:49 pm wrote:

To me it seems rather as though they trust non-CS Math students to use their non-Math units for a useful liberal curriculum but think that CS students would only take bird courses if given the chance

Maybe the CS overseers aren't happy with some of the courses the math students end up taking? Ultimately, the answer to your question may lie somewhere within an impressive hierarchical labyrinth of committees. (Sometimes I'm amazed the University gets any work done at all.)

Labyrinths aren't hierarchial. Hierarchial structures are efficient (trees!), and labyrinths are not. Undoubtedly the bureaucracy at UW is a labyrinth.

[Clayton]

As a fair note of point, nearly every bereaucracy at a University is a giant labyrinth.

[Dan]

Personaly I think forcing students to take courses outside their major is a great idea. Many fields of study are not directly realted to computer science may still provide valuable experince and knowagle when you get to the real world.

If you choces to go into programming for a living, thier is a good chance you will run into projects that touch on other subject areas. For example enterprise software soultions deal heavly in business policy, accounting and business mangment concepts that you would be clueless about if you never had a business course.

If you chose to go into the research side of things, their are many popular research topics that are a hybrid of disciplines. For example eHealh, eLearning, biosurveillance, physics simulations, chemistry sumulations, etc.

If you chose to create your own business, having some background in business, mangment, accounting, comunications, etc will be critical.

The arts can also be of great benfite in educating us to comuncate more efficiently and profesional. Writing essays about philosophy may seem pointless to your crearer, but may help in writing reports, papers and doucmenation latter on in life.

Also is their some value in being well educated overall as a person. At the very least one should have basic knowledge and understanding of the sciences outside math. Everyone should at least have a high school level understanding of topics like the solar system (formation, layout, etc), evolution, motion (newtonian physics), basic chemistry (molecules are made out of atoms, periodic table, etc), and basic human biology.

[2goto1]

bbi5291 @ Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:42 pm wrote:

Does this reflect a judgement that, in the absence of breadth and depth requirements, CS students are likely to be the least well-rounded out of all Math students?

All graduates of the faculty of math will have completely different types of career paths, even though all programs are in the same faculty.

It could imply what you're thinking. Looking at it in a more positive perspective, it could imply that the university has tailored their CS program based on industry feedback, market research, competing universities, alumni feedback, etc. Many CS grads from all universities (let's say those who have graduated in the past 3 - 20 years) are not just doing super-specialized low level technical programming anymore. Many have grown into other types of roles and responsibilities over and above just pure programming, such as project management, entrepreneurial stuff, business analyst type jobs, etc. I also see many alumni still doing lots of low level programming, because they still enjoy that career path. I also know many CS grads that have gone on to take their MBAs in order to transition their careers into something else completely outside of tech. I've seen all of that from my personal experiences.

Your best bet though would be to speak with admissions and ask them these types of questions, to see what they have to say. Dan's comments are very thoughtful and insightful as well.