People tell me Comp.Sci. is a path to unemployment

[Leela]

Ok, now I am confused. I was a humanities person throughout my entire adult life and have recently decided to quit my "PhD of unemployment" and invest into a computer related education. I am in my early thirties and absolutely cannot afford a mistake this time around. This is, so to speak, my second chance to get a profession that is in demand, for a change.
So, I have applied to several universities, have finished my highschool math courses and waiting for my offers.
Now, at least 5 people have recently informed me (two of them work as programmers) that I will be underemployed or unemployed if I choose Comp.Sci. major. At the same time, browsing through the web I see multiple indications that computing professions are indeed very much in demand and that computer industry keeps growing. Who should I believe? I am not going to a different field anyway, because I start enjoying programming immensely, and it suits my personality. SO, I need some reassurance, I guess.

[DemonWasp]

I haven't even finished my BMath (Honours CS) and I'm employed as a coop with a local company. The jobs have always been plentiful in the co-op program here (UWaterloo). The job is good, as is the pay; even without any previous work experience I started above twice the minimum wage.

That said, the computing industry seems prone to forming bubbles around certain technologies. In particular, you find that a lot of excitement and hype builds up around some new technology or idea and a LOT of money gets invested. Eventually, the technology turns out to be uninteresting, unusable, or not profitable. Depending on how cynical and manipulative you are, you can ride these bubbles to gather quite a bit of money - it's the investors and the rank-and-file employees who lose out.

The best way to get ahead at first is to be a team player. Learn how to work in a team and communicate with your team members / supervisor. Technical expertise gets the job done, but communication skills let you figure out what job needs to be done - both are vital, and while most people in the field have a fair bit of the former, the latter can be much less common.

[Leela]

DemonWasp @ Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:27 am wrote:

I haven't even finished my BMath (Honours CS) and I'm employed as a coop with a local company. The jobs have always been plentiful in the co-op program here (UWaterloo). The job is good, as is the pay; even without any previous work experience I started above twice the minimum wage.

That said, the computing industry seems prone to forming bubbles around certain technologies. In particular, you find that a lot of excitement and hype builds up around some new technology or idea and a LOT of money gets invested. Eventually, the technology turns out to be uninteresting, unusable, or not profitable. Depending on how cynical and manipulative you are, you can ride these bubbles to gather quite a bit of money - it's the investors and the rank-and-file employees who lose out.

The best way to get ahead at first is to be a team player. Learn how to work in a team and communicate with your team members / supervisor. Technical expertise gets the job done, but communication skills let you figure out what job needs to be done - both are vital, and while most people in the field have a fair bit of the former, the latter can be much less common.

Thanks for the quick reply. Do you think UofT freshman will enjoy the same amount of attemtion from employers as a Waterloo one?

[jernst]

I've also had no trouble finding employment with my CS degree either (and its from WLU where CS is relatively unknown compared to UW, Toronto and larger schools). From what I've heard Toronto is a good school for CS so I would assume attending there would be a good choice. There are alot of computer companies in the Toronto area (judging by the number of jobs posted on monster.com and similar sites) so I would think that would be helpful if you are trying to do a co op program.

I think the key thing to keep in mind when in CS (as in other careers) is to set yourself out from the others. Contribute to projects, build up a good portfolio and experience (even if they are volunteer or school projects and just show you can do the work)

[Dan]

Getting jobs related to CS is relay more about your experience and networking with people in the industry more then what school you went too.

I have always been of the opinion that you should try to do what you like and want to do and not what is in demand at a given time. The job market is always changing and you can't easily prodict how it will change so picking a degree that has alot of openings now may not pay off in 4 or 6 years.

If you like the humanities i would say stay in the humanities and try to find a way to make money from it. For example almost any university degree can get you a teaching job at a high school or elementry school if you take a year to get a batchlers in education (there is a big demand for teachers in the UK right now and some other countries).

However if you are genualy intrested in Computer Science then i say sign up for the program at your favorit university, just don't do it soely becues you think there will be a big demand for it.

[jernst]

Dan @ Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:02 pm wrote:

Getting jobs related to CS is relay more about your experience and networking with people in the industry more then what school you went too.

I have always been of the opinion that you should try to do what you like and want to do and not what is in demand at a given time. The job market is always changing and you can't easily prodict how it will change so picking a degree that has alot of openings now may not pay off in 4 or 6 years.

If you like the humanities i would say stay in the humanities and try to find a way to make money from it. For example almost any university degree can get you a teaching job at a high school or elementry school if you take a year to get a batchlers in education (there is a big demand for teachers in the UK right now and some other countries).

However if you are genualy intrested in Computer Science then i say sign up for the program at your favorit university, just don't do it soely becues you think there will be a big demand for it.

I have to agree here with Dan as well, if you are not genuinely passionate about computers then it will be very difficult for you to succeed.

[Insectoid]

There is a bonus to these rumours; If more people don't go into compsci because they think there's no jobs, there will be more demand for you!

[Leela]

Dan @ Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:02 pm wrote:

Getting jobs related to CS is relay more about your experience and networking with people in the industry more then what school you went too.

I have always been of the opinion that you should try to do what you like and want to do and not what is in demand at a given time. The job market is always changing and you can't easily prodict how it will change so picking a degree that has alot of openings now may not pay off in 4 or 6 years.

If you like the humanities i would say stay in the humanities and try to find a way to make money from it. For example almost any university degree can get you a teaching job at a high school or elementry school if you take a year to get a batchlers in education (there is a big demand for teachers in the UK right now and some other countries).

However if you are genualy intrested in Computer Science then i say sign up for the program at your favorit university, just don't do it soely becues you think there will be a big demand for it.

No, there is no demand for humanities teachers anywhere. Not, in Canada, not in the UK. In Ontario they don't even accept students for bachelor of education programs anymore because of the huge oversupply of teachers. Believe me I thought of all of the opportunities available. The only thing one can do with a humanities degree is to go study something else, using your good marks as a ticket to get into a competitive program. Everyone does it, unless they don't ever need a well paying job. The smartest ones realise they've made a mistake earlier, the dummest (like me) linger around until the fourth year of their PhD program.
And, by the way, who said I even enjoyed humanities? Most people study "ologies" because they were too lazy during highschool and whatever they've selected to study isn't good for anything else, not because they want to work at a retail store with a bachelor of philosophy in their pockets. I made a mistake I am trying currect - what's wrong with that?

[Leela]

insectoid @ Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:37 pm wrote:

There is a bonus to these rumours; If more people don't go into compsci because they think there's no jobs, there will be more demand for you!

This came to my mind too. Hopefuly, you are right.

[Leela]

Quote:

I have to agree here with Dan as well, if you are not genuinely passionate about computers then it will be very difficult for you to succeed.

Define "genuinely passionate".

[Dan]

Leela @ 9th March 2009, 12:42 pm wrote:

No, there is no demand for humanities teachers anywhere. Not, in Canada, not in the UK. In Ontario they don't even accept students for bachelor of education programs anymore because of the huge oversupply of teachers. Believe me I thought of all of the opportunities available.

My gf is a English and education magor and this does not seem to be the case for her. She is graduating at the end of the year and has allready got an offer from the UK (tho it is unlikey she would go there) and alot of schools she talked to are hiring. Her teachables are in English and stoical sincences (bascily humanities).

Leela @ 9th March 2009, 12:42 pm wrote:

The only thing one can do with a humanities degree is to go study something else, using your good marks as a ticket to get into a competitive program. Everyone does it, unless they don't ever need a well paying job. The smartest ones realise they've made a mistake earlier, the dummest (like me) linger around until the fourth year of their PhD program.

I think it is to bad you droped it right at the end of your PhD (or did you get it?). With a PhD you could at least try to get a teaching position at a university.

Leela @ 9th March 2009, 12:42 pm wrote:

And, by the way, who said I even enjoyed humanities? Most people study "ologies" because they were too lazy during highschool and whatever they've selected to study isn't good for anything else, not because they want to work at a retail store with a bachelor of philosophy in their pockets. I made a mistake I am trying currect - what's wrong with that?

I am not saying there is anythnig wrong with it, i am simply saying that you shoukld do what you enjoy. If you don't like the humanities then don't do it and find somthing else. What i am saying is don't do computer science if it is only for the money/job, do it becues you would enjoy doing it.

Leela wrote:

Define "genuinely passionate".

That you get excited about making a new algorithm, solving a programming problem, trying to make an algorthim have a lower time complexity or looking over some new code/algortim some one has come up with. That you genualy want to get up and code somthing or do somthing realted to your field weather it is part of your job or not. That you program, think up algorthams and solve comptuer scinece ralted problems just for the fun of it.

Any of those would be passionate about computer science and/or programing. It has to be somthign you want to do even if you would not be payed for it.

[Leela]

Quote:

My gf is a English and education magor and this does not seem to be the case for her. She is graduating at the end of the year and has allready got an offer from the UK (tho it is unlikey she would go there) and alot of schools she talked to are hiring. Her teachables are in English and stoical sincences (bascily humanities).

Well, maybe things have changed for the UK or other places. However, I have absolutely no desire to leave Toronto. I am a family girl, have a house, my husband has his own career and my daughter attends a wonderful local daycare.
I don't want to sound pessimistic for your girlfriend - but wait till she actually gets hired full time, not as a supply teacher, and with benefits.

Quote:

I think it is to bad you droped it right at the end of your PhD (or did you get it?). With a PhD you could at least try to get a teaching position at a university.

No, I am not going to finish my PhD, because I am not motivated enough to finish it. The academic job market for the Humanities is ten thousands times worse than the teachers job market. You have to be an exceptional individual to even get invited to an interview. Besides, an academic career almost always entails living for short periods of time in different places all over the world, getting paid really low wages. It might sound exciting when you are 22, but later on this kind of lifestyle is less and less appealing. Conclusion - people work their butts off on writing an original master-peice of a thesis, spend years working as contract faculty, getting paid less then Tim Hortons coffee makers, and end up in the rear end of a very long line for a stable job for longer than one year.

Quote:

That you get excited about making a new algorithm, solving a programming problem, trying to make an algorthim have a lower time complexity or looking over some new code/algortim some one has come up with. That you genualy want to get up and code somthing or do somthing realted to your field weather it is part of your job or not. That you program, think up algorthams and solve comptuer scinece ralted problems just for the fun of it.

Hopefuly, I will enjoy it too. But, you know, I think it is a bit different for boys and girls. I know at least two women who are IT professionals, and are nothing like you described. I mean, they do like their jobs, but I never knew them as "computer geeks". Even at highschool they were never noticed spending hours coding in C or going to programming contests and stuff. They simply did well in their math classes, graduated and naturally went on to study math related subjects.

[Leela]

Here is a short article that perfectly describes the situation with PhD graduates

[Vermette]

Leela @ March 9th 2009, 14:07 wrote:

Quote:

My gf is a English and education magor and this does not seem to be the case for her. She is graduating at the end of the year and has allready got an offer from the UK (tho it is unlikey she would go there) and alot of schools she talked to are hiring. Her teachables are in English and stoical sincences (bascily humanities).

Well, maybe things have changed for the UK or other places. However, I have absolutely no desire to leave Toronto. I am a family girl, have a house, my husband has his own career and my daughter attends a wonderful local daycare.
I don't want to sound pessimistic for your girlfriend - but wait till she actually gets hired full time, not as a supply teacher, and with benefits.

There does seem to be an overabundance of Education grads right now with Social Science/Humanities teachables for the number of openings in Ontario. Of the 8 or so people I know who went for a B.Ed, only 1 found a full-time work, with Computer Science and Business as his teachables, and he's also expected to wear the IT hat. Two found supply work; one had Math/History teachables, the other Math in the French Immersion board. Supply work afaik works entirely by senority, so it's no guarantee of a livable income until the Boomers start to retire en masse. Plus, the recent union negotiations combined with general declining enrollment in the province as families moved West looking for work have added more budgetary pressures on the school boards.

[Drew416]

Leela @ Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:10 am wrote:

Ok, now I am confused. I was a humanities person throughout my entire adult life and have recently decided to quit my "PhD of unemployment" and invest into a computer related education. I am in my early thirties and absolutely cannot afford a mistake this time around. This is, so to speak, my second chance to get a profession that is in demand, for a change.
So, I have applied to several universities, have finished my highschool math courses and waiting for my offers.
Now, at least 5 people have recently informed me (two of them work as programmers) that I will be underemployed or unemployed if I choose Comp.Sci. major. At the same time, browsing through the web I see multiple indications that computing professions are indeed very much in demand and that computer industry keeps growing. Who should I believe? I am not going to a different field anyway, because I start enjoying programming immensely, and it suits my personality. SO, I need some reassurance, I guess.

I think that people are just negative in general. Some people will always find something to complain about. A lot of people don't know about the tech field and make comments based on hearsay. You should ask the two programmers who advised you against doing comp sci why are they saying that. Since you mentioned they are "programmers" so presumably they have a decent jobs so what is their basis of saying you'd be unemployed? They could be one of those people who decided to study computers during the tech boom of the 90's hoping to become filthy rich but they are not making $200k/year they expected, don't enjoy their job and are just bitter. Ontario universities post their employment statistics on their websites, since you are apparently going to UofT their statistics for 2005 graduates are http://www.utoronto.ca/about-uoft/measuring-our-performance/cudo/cudo_2008/other.htm. Computer Science employment statistics were

code:

Year       2 years      6 months 2005       100%         100% 2004       97.0%        77.1% 2003       91.0%        71.8%

Now, I don't put a lot of faith in these numbers as it probably includes grads who are working outside the cs field and universities skew their data to make themselves look good but it does give a more realistic idea about job prospects then anecdotes.