Where is the pragmatism?

[Zeroth]

Being in IT, I'm sure many of us have seen and participated in our share of flame wars(emacs vs vi, Linux vs FreeBSD, etc). So, the question is: where is the pragmatism? Where is the rational approach of evaluation from a non-biased viewpoint, considering the features, the applicability to the application, etc, etc? What is it about technology that makes people become die-hard rabid frothing at the mouth fans?

Lets consider say, Django. At the recent Django con, the keynote speech was titled, "Why I hate Django". It was a remarkably funny, and entertaining speech, very educational, from Cal Henderson of Flickr. He /wants/ to use Django, but its not good enough for him yet. And people loved the speech. They took the criticisms to heart, and already, many of the major points he makes are being addressed... or at least in the initial design phase. Why don't we see this attitude elsewhere? Why do we see RoR fans frothing at any imagined slight against their engine?

In addition, this is a subtle plea for rationality and pragmatism. If something works well for someone, then its all right, even if you disagree with their choice.

[Insectoid]

I believe it is all personal preference. Linux fans love it because it is so customizable and free, I don't like it because of the lack of support for...well, games. Windows fans like the fact that pretty well everything will run on it, I don't like it because I am sick of viruses, crashes, retarded notifications and the settings scattered all over the place. I like mac because everything is where I expect it to be, it has support for a good few games, far less threat from viruses, far more stable than windows, etc. Other people don't like it because it's expensive.

Everyone will find something they like, and argue that it is the best based on what they see as important in an OS/application/baseball glove/etc.

[Clayton]

Some people are close-minded. Close-minded people tend to have the idea that theirs, and only their opinion is the one that matters. Usually these people tend to not believe in the fact that other technology out there exists and/or may be better for some applications than another. Really, insectoid hit it on the head.

[wtd]

Zeroth @ Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:38 am wrote:

Why do we see RoR fans frothing at any imagined slight against their engine?

I'm calling strawman.

The Ruby on Rails development team is incredibly responsive to criticism and works to make changes quickly when they are necessary or at least desirable. One of the criticisms I do frequently see of RoR is that the team is too responsive to constructive criticism, and thus Rails changes too rapidly sometimes. But this criticism they respond too as well, by having a reasonably well thought-out approach to releasing new features.

[Zeroth]

wtd @ Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:58 am wrote:

Zeroth @ Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:38 am wrote:

Why do we see RoR fans frothing at any imagined slight against their engine?

I'm calling strawman.

The Ruby on Rails development team is incredibly responsive to criticism and works to make changes quickly when they are necessary or at least desirable. One of the criticisms I do frequently see of RoR is that the team is too responsive to constructive criticism, and thus Rails changes too rapidly sometimes. But this criticism they respond too as well, by having a reasonably well thought-out approach to releasing new features.

I'm talking not about the core dev team, but the fans, the hanger-ons. You wouldn't believe the howls I saw around the internet when that guy wrote his incredibly long screed against the RoR team and the RoR users. It was like someone had kicked, then raped their favorite puppy. Here's the link to the original rant for reference: http://www.zedshaw.com/rants/rails_is_a_ghetto.html

But I could just as easily have replace RoR with emacs, or vim, or Linux, or Windows, or fricking FreeBSD! Thats my point. People become irrationally attached or against something, and fight hard. But we're supposed to be better than that. We're supposed to be smarter, and more rational; yet many of us aren't.

[wtd]

http://compsci.ca/v3/viewtopic.php?p=104162#104162

[btiffin]

Zeroth; My beliefs are MY beliefs and everyone else is wrong. I'd have it no other way actually. (I'd like to see it toned down a thousand in many instances, but people have to believe and belief is rarely logical nor changeable.)

I believe in REBOL. I'm saddened when I can't convince others of its inate superiority, but I try not and "seriously" flame others for their choice. A light toasting perhaps.

I also believe that I'm wrong more often than not. (The odds stack that way - for everyone - but many don't want to admit it, so things go irrational).

I can say, at least for myself, the angst of it all decreases with age.

Cheers

[jernst]

I find that alot of the people who you are describing on either side (hardcore defenders, or hardcore criticizers) just plain don't know what they are talking about. Most people who are really close to the work can recognize the flaws, and will even help point them out or at least be willing and happy to work to improve what they are working on. Conversely the people who are overly critical may have never even tried some of the competing tools or products or whatever and may not realize that both more or less accomplish the same thing. For example, people who have never used macs, or linux, or even vista yet are still adamantly opposed to using them.

[Zeroth]

I definitely would have to agree with jernst's assessment. Most of the most vocal people really don't know anything about what they're talking about... which gives me another reason to distrust politicians. >.>

Its like on a King of the Hill episode, where Bobby gets really excited and loud about an idea, and Joseph says, "You're talking really loud, so of course I'm in!"

[jbking]

My own guess is that part of this comes from what experiences one has had, e.g. Mac users may have fewer issues with their computers and thus gush about them just like some car owners would do if they thought their car was AWESOME. To try to give anyone equal exposure to multiple technologies is a mighty challenge as think about what it would take to be Linux/Mac/Windows neutral alone.

Another way to think about it is that if something tends to make someone happy, they enjoy talking about it and may jump in to defend it if they feel it is unfairly under attack. Some of the more common flame wars I've seen are the Intel vs AMD, ATi(now part of AMD) vs nVidia, Windows vs Macs, XBox vs Playstation, Java vs. .Net, Oracle vs MS-SQL for relational databases.

[S_Grimm]

Don't forget the most important one of them all:

Starwars vs Startrek



People are stupid. Not insulting anyone out there, but really. If I grew up being told that Mac is better than Windows, I would believe that. Hence I would be stupid. BTW: There is no competition between XBox and Playstation.

Y? Because Wii is the best of them all!

jk!