Zeitgeist

[chrisbrown]

Since programmers are instinctively logical:
[url]
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
[/url]
If you haven't already..

[SNIPERDUDE]

I've seen the movie about a year ago
It really is a load of s**t.

I mean logically, alot of the stuff they mention is NOT factual and just stirred up thoughts trying to get you angry.

Check this out:
http://zeitgeistmovieisfake.com/truth/

[Zeroth]

It is bullshit. And that site you linked to Sniperdude is bullshit as well. Pretty much this

Quote:

Part 1 deals with Christian religion, telling us it is fake, and that Jesus never existed. Well who cares whether Jesus never existed. Christian religion had profound positive effects on the development of western civilization. Where in other parts of the world people with different religion slaughter each other, consider women second class citizens, and kill in the name of God, we have values deeply rooted by our religion into us. Our connection to Christianity is so deep that most of us still retain our values even though we are not religious. Christianity in this sense is real and a great success story. We are a living testament to that. It is absolutely not important whether Jesus ever lived, whether he died, and whether he was resurrected.

disgusted me. Its nothing but a bunch of stereotypes and religious justification for Christianity. I guess he's forgotten about the Crusades?

Let me break down how Zeitgeist is bullshit.

They use musical rhythms which are well known to put people into more "receptive" states. In addition, the techniques of echoing, of questions, pretty pictures, again, all into a more receptive state. By remaining faceless initially, it gives more credence to his initial statements. These are all basic techniques for influencing people or telling a story in a certain way. There are many more that I didn't mention. If he was telling the "truth" he wouldn't need these factors to essentially "convince" people.

In addition, he presents a logical fallacy in part one about Christianity. The existence or not of Jesus Christ does not in any way negate the teachings or the morality of the religion. The teachings, morality, and lessons presented exist separate from any faith, proof, or even Jesus Christ. If the teachings are moral, if they make people be better people, then it does not matter if Christ existed. I'm not sure what kind of fallacy this is, but it is one.

Part 2 is about the 9/11 attacks. This can be easily answered with one question: Could the same government that could not keep the world convinced there were WMD's in Iraq, that has proven incompetent in every other way, have managed to orchestrate a horrific attack... and keep it a secret? Remember, many of the people in charge were in charge when the secret service couldn't even keep a little stained dress secret.

Parts one and two are specifically designed to inspire paranoia. They break down the two strongest institutions in people's lives, effectively destroying most people's foundations... but they do it with manipulative techniques, logical fallacies, argument by ad hominem. This is designed so they will be more receptive to the utter crap in part three. Look at the markets the last couple of weeks. Basically, its saying that the same people that sold bad debt over and over and over to each other, insured it, gave loans and mortgages to people that could not pay.... are also masterminding everything? Wow. Just wow.

Now, if anyone wants a really good story, backed up with facts, references, etc, read The Shock Doctrine. The book was of course written before all the turmoil, but in short, she says that there is a pattern. Whenever a major disaster happens, free market capitalists swoop in, and begin enforcing their free market ideas, with the insistence that all government interference is bad. These free market ideas extend to vouchers for charter schools, selling off every public works, like electricity, gas, mines, etc, and scaling back the role of government to police, courts, and army. No price controls. Pay as you go healthcare. And each and every single time they try this, they fail. The economy goes into a depression, prices spiral out of control, debt balloons, and the government is forced to buy out these debts with public money. Sound familiar? It has the ring of conspiracy theory... but its true. That is what is so scary about it.

Every place that has been hailed as a victory for free markets is not. Argentina, its unemployment rate soared to 30%! It was only after Pinochet aggressively nationalized the banks, the infrastructure, the mines, that the economy stabilized and began to actually employ people. But the damage was done. The middle class was wiped out, and Argentina today still has one of the largest divides between the rich and the poor. Look at whats happening now in the US.

[Zeroth]

I'd also like to add that, reading the transcript, again, I have to point out that he goes into all this "proof" but does not support his assertions of

Quote:

Christianity, along with all other theistic belief systems, is the fraud of the age. It serves to detach the species from the natural world, and likewise, each other. It supports blind submission to authority. It reduces human responsibility to the effect that "God" controls everything, and in turn awful crimes can be justified in the name of Divine Pursuit. And most importantly, it empowers those who know the truth but use the myth to manipulate and control societies. The religious myth is the most powerful device ever created, and serves as the psychological soil upon which other myths can flourish

Where is his proof that it distances us from each other? It is silly. All this proof, and then he makes blind assertions... the idea is that the authority granted by the proof of the earlier bits is carried over to his assertions. From a student standpoint, this is something we are taught not to do in English class, Philosophy, grad studies...

[SNIPERDUDE]

Yeah, about part 1 not only does he make these blind assertions, all of these 'facts' he gives us are easily argued against. With logic and proof.

I don't even want to bother to argue every stupid point the movie makes - it just takes too damn long.

Either way I'm sure we can all just leave it at the judgement that this movie is BS.

[Zren]

I've seen the first video, but has anyone watch the second episode in full yet? If so, is it worth watching. Even though the first may be just about every conspiracy theory together in one place with slight, if any connections. I believe it was still is a well created movie, and was worth watching.

[chrisbrown]

Quote:

I'm sure we can all just leave it at the judgement that this movie is BS.

What makes you so sure? Is it your own intuition? Or is it that your conditioning has made it so that you accept such matters without question? I don't know about the rest of you but personally, I believe this movie spells out the truth, and those who question it do so only because they have been blinded by that which is meant to cloud your judgement. IIRC, there is a quote that goes something like: "That which can be accepted without proof can also be dismissed without proof." In which case, you have to ask yourself, which is the more likely scenario: that there is an all-powerful god that watches over us, or that some smart people realized that they can exploit the general population through fear. I won't judge anyone who disagree's but personally, evidence or not, the arguments made in Zeitgeist ring far truer than anything I learned in religion class.

[SNIPERDUDE]

No, I do not make blind judgements. Hell, when I first saw the movie I believed it. Then I started to question everything I took in, and after searching for answers I found some. Legitimate answers that not only make sense - but are factual and backed up. Can you actually back up your (their) arguments with other sources?

I have a really good amount of religious study under my belt, and I can easily argue against the movie. And just to note about there being a God - science, Theology, and Psychology has proven the need for Intelligent Design. The guy in the movie who was giving that presentation was an idiot, with no more proof for his argument as stubborn Christians who say "there is no proof either way" - which is not true.

For a good read check out 'The Case For A Creator' by Lee Strobel.

All I'm saying is, be careful of what you take in as fact or fiction.

[Zeroth]

methodoxx @ Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:58 pm wrote:

Quote:

I'm sure we can all just leave it at the judgement that this movie is BS.

What makes you so sure? Is it your own intuition? Or is it that your conditioning has made it so that you accept such matters without question? I don't know about the rest of you but personally, I believe this movie spells out the truth, and those who question it do so only because they have been blinded by that which is meant to cloud your judgement. IIRC, there is a quote that goes something like: "That which can be accepted without proof can also be dismissed without proof." In which case, you have to ask yourself, which is the more likely scenario: that there is an all-powerful god that watches over us, or that some smart people realized that they can exploit the general population through fear. I won't judge anyone who disagree's but personally, evidence or not, the arguments made in Zeitgeist ring far truer than anything I learned in religion class.

Methodoxx, I personally am an atheist, but I believe in spirituality. Take a look at what I've written. You are merely being manipulated. You are using the exact same arguments as in the movie. Though, I, personally, am atheist, I don't see why that means religion should go away. It does help people. It provides a moral compass, and a strong ethical foundation, in a world that is growing ever more amoral. Now, as I stated before, any argument that needs to use such blatant manipulations of the mind, isn't an argument that is well-supported or well-argued. Yes, some people have used it for their own benefit... but in the greater sense, it has provided a lot of good.

@Sniperdude: I don't care if you are creationist... what I do care is this simple question: What should be taught in biology classes?

Oh, and PS, no science has NOT proven the need for intelligent design. Science is based on two concepts; any theory that is proposed can be falsified, ie, it can be tested, and that it does not ever explain the why, merely the how, when, and what. Explaining the why is the provenance of religion and philosophy. Science, in this case, evolution, offers a good explanation, and testable theory, about how species change and adapt. Abiogenesis, which is the science of the start of life, seeks to explain how it started. Just because we can't explain that yet, does not invalidate evolutionary theory. It is as if, some guy comes up with several formula for physics, related to the motion of objects, say... Newton, but could not yet explain how it works that way. Then you simply claim his ideas are wrong because its incomplete. That, as you can see, is a complete fallacy to approach other scientific theories with the same attitude.

For a really good read, check out The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins.

[Dan]

Please keep this on the topic of Zeitgeist and not creationism vs evloution type thing, we have had the 2nd debate alot and it allways ends in a flame war and no ones option is changed but alot of fellings are hurt.

[Zeroth]

Okay, sorry Dan.

On the topic of Zeitgeist, as I said before, it is pure manipulation. It is designed to convince people with doubts about religion and government. These people need something to believe in, which he offers. It is solely a money-making effort. While pretty effective, I dislike anyone trying to covertly manipulate me. Maybe that is why I hate advertising...

[Euphoracle]

I found it entertaining. It's a good movie.

[riveryu]

Truth is just something that the majority agree with. So I say the majority wins any argument. I bet there are more people who will say the movie is not bullshit lol.

"Philosophy is questions that can never be answered. Religion is an answer that can not be questioned." -someone

The thing is that sometimes religion gets in the way of science.

[StealthArcher]

The Philosophy above always holds true, until you examine history.

-Medieval Times: People always believed Aristotle, no matter the objections. Later proven in absolute to be dead wrong in almost every area.

-George Washington: He dying of pneumonia! OMFG!
Let's drain him of his blood!
Yes! That's a GOOD idea!

-Majority of the updates to the atomic structure.

Majority belief != Truth

[gitoxa]

Truth is absolute fact, whether or not it is known to people.

Easy (read: poor) example, it's like saying that 1+1=3 because you're in a school of people that don't understand math. Just because they all think that's true, doesn't make it so.