Beware the IDEs of Java? Opinions please

[btiffin]

Hello campers,

I'm trying to force myself back into a mainstream mode. Thinking about trying to squeeze a few minutes of Java back into my daily routines. Eclipse has turned me off before I even got seriously started. What kinda bloated ... never mind.

I guess I'm seeking opinions from the board on a sane choice of Java development environment. As some background, gotta be GNU/Linux; I'd prefer it be vi and gcj but part of the goal was "mainstream - follow the herd so you know of what they speak" and I'm not sure gcj has the coverage of what average Java developers would be discussing or expect. Is that assumption true?

I'm not an IDE kinda guy, but as I haven't Java'ed since 1999 I'd prefer an overview class browser of some sort (I think), just to get up to speed on the AWT or SWING or WTF class library offerings.

Or maybe not. Also part of my background is a healthy disrespect for lemmings and herds so it may be a delusion to think I'd be any good at mainstream programming anyway - the red devil shoulder continually shouting down the white angel shoulder makes for a poor workday.

Any personal preference opinions or compelling arguments would be appreciated.
Cheers

[DemonWasp]

I can understand not liking Eclipse, but to be honest it's fairly good about bloat. Starts up faster than any equivalent IDE I've ever seen (C++ Builder and JBuilder both took twice as long to start up, and weren't as helpful). The biggest advantage here is code-completion, as it saves you a lot of time looking up stuff in the Javadocs.

If you're more oriented towards command-line development (ie using vi and command-line compiles), then you can of course just use vi and command-line stuff. I would, however, recommend that you be prepared to put together build scripts (either bash or ANT or similar), as the commands required can be incredibly long, depending on your setup.

As far as "mainstream" goes (and note that I have minimal job experience here...), I've only ever seen Java written in Eclipse. In fact, I'm using Eclipse for C++ development right now (not a choice I'd make, as CDT isn't ready yet).

Actually, a thought occurs: if the cluttered interface of Eclipse was what was getting to you, try double-clicking on the tab for your source code: it will expand to consume most of the window, thus hiding other components and making it a lot less chaotic.

If, instead, it was the non-vi-edit that was messing with you, you may want to try the vi plugin for Eclipse

The only other IDE I've used was JCreator; it's fairly light and fast, but lacks a lot of features other IDEs have had for ages (code-completion, definition lookups, etc). I can't recall whether it's cross-platform or not offhand.

[rdrake]

The only Java IDE I could stand was Netbeans.

[btiffin]

I'm still waffling. I loaded Eclipse (an hour for apt-get ... part of the "what's getting me") and played around with the class browser.

I might just go back to using my spare time to build up expertise in D instead (but I'm not going to give up just yet). Maybe more soon.

Thanks by the way.
Cheers

[DemonWasp]

Urg...apt-get is a bad plan in this case, as it rarely serves above 150KB/s. Just use the Eclipse download site and you should be able to saturate your connection (I hit 800KB/s).

Also, make sure you get 3.3 at the very least, preferably 3.4 (there's a slight bug with the first build if you switch to using SUN's Java).

Also worth noting: make sure you're using SUN's Java if you can. GCJ is a great idea, but it's not nearly as fast, and can cause Eclipse to become far less usable. You can, of course, have Eclipse run in the Sun JVM and compile/run your code with GCJ, or some other arrangement, if you absolutely have to use GCJ.

[wtd]

I think you either want to learn more about D or write Java code in Scala.

[Unforgiven]

I've recently gotten interested in writing web services in Java, so this is directly relevant.

I've only briefly gotten into it so far, but so far, Netbeans is sluggish but works, and has some nice plugins (haven't been able to try it yet, but the collaboration one looks great), and Eclipse barely f'ing runs. Eclipse is the sort of thing that makes me not even bother to try running java apps at all.

[btiffin]

wtd wrote:

I think you either want to learn more about D or write Java code in Scala.

Yeah, maybe. I was leaning toward Kawa though. I'll not be giving up D, regardless of what I spend spare spare-time on. D is wicked cool.

Unforgiven @ Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:52 pm wrote:

I've recently gotten interested in writing web services in Java, so this is directly relevant.

I've only briefly gotten into it so far, but so far, Netbeans is sluggish but works, and has some nice plugins (haven't been able to try it yet, but the collaboration one looks great), and Eclipse barely f'ing runs. Eclipse is the sort of thing that makes me not even bother to try running java apps at all.

Yep. Performance (and bloat) is what's holding me back from embracing Gosling's baby. Always has been. When I was a "professional" Java coder I was using Forte. Brutal. Pretty, promising, but brutal. I learned to expect about 15 minutes of productive work, a crash, 15 minutes to get back to developing, swearing about figuring out what was lost, and then another race to get 15 minutes of work done. Type two, save, knit two, save, lull into creative development zone and crash - fantastic!

Umm, I rarely mention that stint on a resume. All things being equal, I would have fired me. (I was blaming the tool - everyday - not a professional thing to do. I really should have just embraced the Duke and sucked it up.)

Cheers

[wtd]

I am inclined to see Java witten in Scheme as unwieldy. Yeah, you can do it, but Guy Steele dies a little inside when you do.

Scala is a much better match.

[rizzix]

Kawa is elegant, but I'd have to say Scala is much better.

[Aziz]

JCreator is windows-only, and I don't think it even runs well with wine. I've liked Netbeans before, but Java GUIs are not as intuitive as most natives ones are (for example, my eclipse doesn't support drag-and-drop text! I though it did, but when I installed it at work, it didn't).

[btiffin]

Oh, by the way;

I've reaffirmed my total dislike for IDEs. They are all heinous and unconscionable distractions to productivity. ALL.



Cheers