freelancebalkan

[Dragan]

If you want, you can help to me and my friends and put our banner on your site, or if you want we can manage exchanging banners with yours sites

our banner is

http://www.freelancebalkan.com/baneri/mali%20baner-en.swf

site is www.freelancebalkan.com

[Dan]

Your site goes aginsted everything i blive in and i can only hope a lot of the users here would agree with that as Canadian programmers who care about the feuttuer of the industry.

All i can add is you get what you pay for.

[Zeroth]

I heartily agree. That site seems... like a ripoff. Any student that uses this site is just asking to be kicked out of school. Dan, can you delete this?

[Dragan]

Zeroth @ Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:43 am wrote:

I heartily agree. That site seems... like a ripoff. Any student that uses this site is just asking to be kicked out of school. Dan, can you delete this?

I didn't understand you. What delete ? Why delete?

Did I break some of compsci.ca rules?


@Zeroth, @Dan, if you don't understand purpose of www.freelancebalkan.com visit this link http://forum.freelancebalkan.com/viewforum.php?f=5

[rizzix]

To quote Zeroth,

Zeroth @ Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:43 am wrote:

Any student that uses this site is just asking to be kicked out of school.

Besides, that kind of cheating is against compsci.ca rules.

[Dan]

My problem is more with the outsourcing part then the potential for cheating.

As for deleting it does not realy break any rules and he is free to post it as long as it is not done in a spammy way.

@Dragan Personaly my issue with it is the idea of outsourcing programming work to other countrys and thus hurting the local programming industry and puting well trained and qaufied local programmers out of work for lower payed less educated programmers who will work for less.

I blive zeroth issue with it stems from the poteal for it to be used by computer science students as a means for paying peoleop to do there work. Outsourcing the home work so to say.

[StealthArcher]

Dan @ Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:25 pm wrote:

@Dragan Personaly my issue with it is the idea of outsourcing programming work to other countrys and thus hurting the local programming industry and puting well trained and qaufied local programmers out of work for lower payed less educated programmers who will work for less.

Then the local programmers should find a way to reduce their costs and charge less, we shouldn't have to 'protect' them by shutting outsourcing down.

[DemonWasp]

Stealth Archer, you have a point, but consider the typical (software) outsourcing story:

1. Company decides local talent is too expensive, outsources the work.
2. Work takes longer and costs more than anticipated.
3. Project arrives late, barely functional, and incomplete. The software is complete garbage. Nobody is happy with the outcome.
4. People get to use sub-standard software because someone got greedy.

While the free market can handle a lot of things, it doesn't always create quality products; that only happens if the people working on it care about the product enough to make it good. Local talent can't be cheaper, because if it was, they'd be cutting corners to work at the same level as the outsourced labour.

So really, it's not that we should protect local programmers, it's that we should encourage competent programming (and competent engineering, etc) so that we aren't left with half-assed products. This is to keep the software world "healthy", not to bolster the pocketbooks of local coders, IMO.

[Tony]

Local programmers shouldn't reduce cost or charge less, they should simply do the high-quality type of work that they have the skills for.

The problems arise when one expects a high wage for a low-skill job or when a high-skill job is outsourced to a low-skill worker.

[StealthArcher]

DemonWasp @ Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:33 pm wrote:

Stealth Archer, you have a point, but consider the typical (software) outsourcing story:

1. Company decides local talent is too expensive, outsources the work.
2. Work takes longer and costs more than anticipated.
3. Project arrives late, barely functional, and incomplete. The software is complete garbage. Nobody is happy with the outcome.
4. People get to use sub-standard software because someone got greedy.

While the free market can handle a lot of things, it doesn't always create quality products; that only happens if the people working on it care about the product enough to make it good. Local talent can't be cheaper, because if it was, they'd be cutting corners to work at the same level as the outsourced labour.

So really, it's not that we should protect local programmers, it's that we should encourage competent programming (and competent engineering, etc) so that we aren't left with half-assed products. This is to keep the software world "healthy", not to bolster the pocketbooks of local coders, IMO.

And yet you truly believe controlling the market through legislation produces this?

[DemonWasp]

It can, if the legislation is written with foresight. There's no reason it can't be, except that people are stupid, misinformed, and generally lousy at seeing the whole picture (myself included).

The people who make the laws are not necessarily in the best position to understand their ramifications, so you'll get poor laws if you can't guide the lawmakers in their work.

[btiffin]

Umm, I'm with Stealth Archer on this one. Don't assume non North American programmers are "low-skill". Problems arise from spec mis-interpretations more often than any lack of programming talent. IQ and higher education is evenly distributed across the planet (in the main).

The large IT centre that was built in India is now mainly a call-centre afaik. Just before a lot of large outsourcing was planned the US and Canadian governments piped up "Wait, you want to develop government contracted software in a foreign land ... we don't think so!" Large corporate clients followed suit. Too much security risk.

Not that it is not happening, just not on the scale that was planned by some big wigs.

Better to let "them" make outsourcing plans and then create a better-than-anywhere-else Canadian shop. Compete on the global stage and go get contracts producing software for China. Do it. I'll apply for a job and gladly work for just about anyone here.

Cheers

[DemonWasp]

Hmmm. Perhaps my gripe is more against independent contracting where the company ends up with a crappy product that they're legally obligated to pay outrageous amounts for. I suppose I've heard of that both in outsourcing and locally, but more frequently in outsourcing.

Either way, software quality suffers when people try to do it cheap. Quality - Short Development Time - Price; choose exactly two. Too often the first goes unnoticed, with the emphasis on the other two. This sacrifices things like efficiency, security, good coding practices, maintainability, and so on for a short-term gain, and it's damaging both to the software industry as well as whoever the application is for.

[Zeroth]

The problem is not the outsource programmers, but the companies that employ them. I've seen and heard of contract work that comes back, in:
A) The wrong language(its almost always VB6, instead of C, C++, Perl, Lisp, or Python as requested)
B) Buggier than code written by a first year programmer
C) Takes longer than stated, and they always have glib excuses.

There have been a few small successes, but typically, the companies take the contract, they change things so their programmers don't realize its all wrong, and then ship it back without bugs. There are also significant cultural issues. One company thats actually succeeded with outsourcing, does all their testing in China(and main development in the US). When they started, they sent the software off, and the tests routines. They were asked by the lead tester, "What do you want the tests to say?"

To do outsourcing well, you need to deal with cultural issues, timeline expectations, communications issues, security issues, and ensure the company isn't just lying. This tends to create a large group of... facilitators just to ensure the "cheaper" work gets done right... and which ends up, with the cost of the facilitators and technology, to be more expensive than home-brewed programmers.

And yes, my issue is on the cheating part. Sites should encourage learning, not buying the answers. As well, I do have a particular dislike of outsource coders, since they typically undersell everyone on those code for hire sites, and screw up every single time. For awhile, I tried to do one of those code for hire sites... kept getting undersold by coders that would submit, again, VB6, instead of Python, or C as had been requested.

[Dragan]

Dan @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:25 am wrote:

@Dragan Personaly my issue with it is the idea of outsourcing programming work to other countrys and thus hurting the local programming industry and puting well trained and qaufied local programmers out of work for lower payed less educated programmers who will work for less.

Why do you think that only in your country programers are well trained and qaulified, and all other (in other countries like mine) are less educated?

Maybe we are cheaper but that is becouse standard in my country is on less level.

Zeroth wrote:

The problem is not the outsource programmers, but the companies that employ them. I've seen and heard of contract work that comes back, in
A) The wrong language(its almost always VB6, instead of C, C++, Perl, Lisp, or Python as requested)
B) Buggier than code written by a first year programmer
C) Takes longer than stated, and they always have glib excuses.

Do you think that only in your country programmers make the best programs. Every country have low-skill and high-skill programers. Any company who employ low-skill programmers, thay will do one job with tham and after this:
A) The wrong language(its almost always VB6, instead of C, C++, Perl, Lisp, or Python as requested)
B) Buggier than code written by a first year programmer
C) Takes longer than stated, and they always have glib excuses.

thay will be fired.

Zeroth wrote:

And yes, my issue is on the cheating part. Sites should encourage learning, not buying the answers.

You are miss point, we dont want to work someones homework, we try to find business partners.