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 Perpetual Motion Machine
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isaiahk9




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:28 pm   Post subject: Perpetual Motion Machine

For those who know what the title means, then you'll know what this thread is about. For those who don't here's what it is :
A perpetual motion machine is a machine that violates the laws of physics, by never having any waste heat. basically, its a machine that once started will never stop.
This machine is impossible - it violates the laws of physics. However, the genius i sit beside in physics was bored and started talking to me about it. Both of us being fairly bright, we started talking. Eventually we came to this design (based off one of the very first perpetual motion machines made by a Hindu, I forget his name), and we're wondering why it wouldn't work. We know it wouldn't, but why? Here is the design :

A lightweight titanium cylinder has its sides cut out, so it can have an axle fed through its length. On the inside of this cylinder, there is negative mono-poles (if you don't know what they are, they are extremely rare and powerful one-sided magnets, either completely negatively charged or completely positively charged). The axle is a rod of a negative mono-pole. This way, the magnetism will reduce the friction of the axle to nilch. The axle is connected to a stand that stabilizes the contraption on the ground. So far, there is a cylinder on an axle, not touching because of mono-poles.
Attached to this lightweight cylinder on the outside are negative mono-pole plates, perpendicular to the cylinder's surface when looked at from the side. Then, a negative mono-pole is fixed above the machine at an angle. This way, the mono-poles repel and because the mono-poles strength is so great, the wheel is spent spinning. All of this machine is kept in a vaccume to remove air resistance. So as the mono-poles repel, the wheel spins and the next mono-pole is brought up, repelling again to send the machine going in a never-ending circuit.

So what is wrong with it?
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rizzix




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:34 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

:s How's the existence of a magnetic monopoles physically possible?
Tony




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:48 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

rizzix hits it spot on Wink

And also, a perpetual motion machine does not violate the laws of physics. It's simply a machine running at 100% efficiency -- no friction, no heat. Once the energy is applied to the machine (to start it), it will remain there. In fact, laws of physics dictate that -- an object in motion will remain in motion, unless acted upon by the outside force.

What is impossible is having a machine with 101% efficiency -- free energy.

A 100% efficient device is amusing, yet useless, since any useful output will result in energy being taken out of the system, and thus it can't be 100% efficient.
Latest from compsci.ca/blog: Tony's programming blog. DWITE - a programming contest.
isaiahk9




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:49 pm   Post subject: Re: Perpetual Motion Machine

"Normally, if you break a magnet in half, you do not get two monopoles. Instead each half of the magnet becomes a magnet by itself, with its own north and south pole; that is, it becomes another dipole. So if you continue to shatter a magnet, you will always find pairs of north and south poles. (This process of breaking dipole magnet to create smaller dipole magnets continues all the way down to the atomic level, where the atoms themselves are dipoles.)" - Michio Kaku
". . . physicists widely believe that the universe once had an abundance of monopoles at the instant of the big bang. . . because of the universe expanding the denisty of monopoles has been diluted . . . in summary, monopoles are most probably in deep space, and are the cause of the expansion of the universe." - Michio Kaku
rizzix




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:52 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

Then find me a monopole.
isaiahk9




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:53 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

As well, 100% efficiency is against the second law of Thermodynamics : states that the total amount of entropy always increases.
Basically, you can't break even. And if the monopoles, being so incredibly powerfully charged, they would push more than 100% efficiency, and being more than 101%.
isaiahk9




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:55 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

rizzix, I was speaking in theory. I'm not gonna get monopoles when they cost $$$. I was saying IF i did have monopoles, then would it be possible
rizzix




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:02 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

In theory one could say a lot of things, it doesn't mean it works. There are contradiction in a lot of these models, only a few seem to fit in nicely -- and even then some of these don't provide any useful results.

Edit: You said, "I'm not gonna get monopoles when they cost $$$", that could imply that we already have these monopoles.
isaiahk9




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:16 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

First, your edit : sorry for misleading you. If we have got them (the government) then a __ year old citizen wouldn't be allowed to have them. if we don't have them, then sorry for implying it.

In your paragraph above that, are you talking about monopoles or the perpetual-motion-machine.

If you're talking about monopoles, then humor me and pretend they exist for my idea.

If you're talking about the machine, then I was just asking if anybody had a physic's law or a fact that would prevent it from working. Me and my buddy went through four models before this one, each one being stumped by a law of physics.
rizzix




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:31 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

I was talking about the monopoles, but yes my point is, the theoretical physics land can be very much like a fairytale land, with just a few equations thrown in for good measure Razz
r691175002




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:54 pm   Post subject: Re: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

isaiahk9 @ Thu May 15, 2008 4:53 pm wrote:
As well, 100% efficiency is against the second law of Thermodynamics : states that the total amount of entropy always increases.


I was under the impression the law was along the lines "Entropy can only remain constant or increase, never decrease" (For example, a completely static closed system will not increase in entropy) however wikipedia is very unclear on the actual nature of the second law, stating only "In an isolated system, a process can occur only if it increases the total entropy of the system."

Either way though, I would consider it impossible to achieve 100% efficiency. There are many ways to lose energy that in practice occur very rarely in non trivial amounts. I have a feeling your design would induce eddy currents among many other small losses of energy.
isaiahk9




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:12 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

I understand that the laws of physics say that it is impossible, but how? Just because the laws of physics says something, doesn't mean its true. The greatest scientific discovery of our time was the quantum theory, and it came only after it overtook the Newtonian theory, the most believed theory of that time.
Basically, I'm saying that we don't know if that Law is correct. I was wondering how this machine would lose its motion if it removes air resistance and friction.
And to rizzix, we'll never know unless we try. Really, the only thing that is theoretical science in this is the monopoles.
Dan




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:14 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

100.0000000000000000..1% effecheny or higger breaks the law that says enegy can not be desotryed or created. If a perpetual motion machine that output enegy existiced it would be producing engenry out of nothing.

Also even if you could find monpoles, and the mashen did seem to work (both of witch i find extermaly imporable) the poles would eventualy demagtize and it would stop, making it less then 100%.

In addtion there are problems with the fources from your monpoles, even if one could existce you are going to have conlficing forces unless there magentic force magicly stops when it hits the cylender. You claim that the aixs is a monpole that admits a singal pole force all around it to make the cylender float but if that is the case each monopole around the cylender to make it move must also have a spherical effect even if it is singal poled. This means the angle of the monopoles is irealvent as they also admit a magtice fource sphericaly around them. The net foruces just don't add up to the cyliender moving like you say.

So what you realy want is not just monopoles but bidirectional monopoles witch is even more imposable.
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isaiahk9




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:17 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

No, I think I explained my design not clear enough. How could I show a picture (then I'd show the diagram)?
Dan




PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:22 pm   Post subject: RE:Perpetual Motion Machine

The problem is that in one part of your desing monpoles ack in one direction and in the other part they act as a unifourm fource over a sphere. Both can't posible be true, but the point is irealvent as it breks the law of engery being created or desotryed if it can make power and if not it is not 100% becues they will demagtize some day.
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