Your advice please...

[Eric]

Hello Everyone,

I was directed to this forum and signed up just last night (Thank-you Tony!). My name is Eric and I could use a bit of advice, help and a bit of encouragement as I'm feeling quite alone/lost right now. Please take the time to read it if you can.

First, let me give you a quick background description of myself: I graduated with a B.Eng. in Electrical from McMaster just over 3 years ago. I've been working as an Engineer for the past 3 years for a small company in Oakville (Fifth Light Tech). It's a relatively new company and I do get the benefit of working with a lot of my professors from MAC. I spend some of my time programming PLCs and microchips, generally using C, assembly, and structured text/ladder logic (for the PLCs). Otherwise, I spend the rest of my time helping designing hardware for our products.

In high school, I was an avid programmer, yet, for whatever reason I decided to go the route of Engineering rather than sticking strictly within my programming niche, CompSci. I suppose at the time I thought that Eng would incorporate a lot of the CompSci aspects I loved while allowing me to broaden my knowledge in other areas outside of programming. To some extent it might be true, but I found that I never got a lot of the hands-on learning/progamming that I desired and far too much theory than I cared to receive. There was no balance. BTW, Electrical is basically the same thing as Computer Engineering if some of you don't know. If I supplement something like 2 of my final year courses with 2 other courses, I'd have a B.Eng in Computers.

Well, after working in the field for 3 years, I find myself regretting becoming an Engineer as I do not feel very satisfied. Actually, I began feeling it after the first year but I always hoped that the feelings would pass with pay increases, new projects, etc, but it has only gotten worse. I don't get to do enough programming, and the programming I get to do is limited to the languages I specified above. Whenever we have to make actual software for customers, they outsource to "experienced" programmers who know how to use visual environments better than I do. There is potential to make a lot of money with this company as it grows but I am finding that money is not going to appease my disinterest/unhappiness. I tried looking at other positions with other companies, but these consulting companies are all the same.

I had always thought working as a game programmer would be right up my alley but I've always been a bit too intimidated to start over from square one. Even something loosely related to the industry would be a lot more satisfying that what I am doing right now. In the last couple months, I began reading up on what it is I'd need to do to get myself along that career path and I stumbled upon the GameCamp event. I thought it might be a nice event to jump on, considering I am just starting out and I must say that I really did enjoy it. While the examples were fairly basic (yet very useful for visualization), the motivational speaking was what really got me. It wasn't until then that I was 100% certain that I do want to do some kind of career change, preferably towards the game industry.

So, here enters your advice"¦ I am looking at going back to school to brush up on my programming. I am looking at either completing another Undergrad (in CompSci) or doing my Masters in CompSci"¦ in which case I'd probably have to take a bunch undergrad prerequisites to get the Masters program I want. The question is what should I bother with? I like the idea of revisiting another undergrad but I do not want to waste too much time on stuff I might have already learned or stuff I may not need to learn. On the other hand, if I skip the undergrad, I'm afraid I might miss something incredibly useful. I like the idea of getting my Masters, but I'd like to make sure it focused on something related to my career change. I also would like to at least get all the undergrad courses that would help me along on that path.

I haven't had a chance to review the course calendar for CompSci. I plan on doing that this week. I also found that most Universities won't allow me to take another Bachelor in any field that is closely related to my own (including CompSci) because a lot the courses would be overlapping. Maybe it is their way of preventing people from getting a Bachelor in everything. I found that because I do know professors at MAC and I that can talk to the Dean and his associates, they can easily pull some strings to accommodate me in any program if I beg hard and long enough. But would it be necessary? That is the question. Perhaps a masters is all I need and it would definitely take less time to complete. But what would I need to focus on and what prereqs in the undergrad should I take that would be helpful to me, assuming I want to be a game developer?

Finally, I know I need to do a lot of work on my own spare time to make demos/examples of my ideas and what I'm capable of (In short: a portfolio). I plan to begin working on this as soon as I figure out what it is I'm going to do, but I'd love to get involved with the community as best I can. I have little to no associates that share the same programming interests that I do. I do have a friend that works for Bioware in Edmonton and he gives me advice all the time and a little inside help but his main focus is art, not programming, and I'm not a strong artist . If anyone in and around the Toronto area needs any help with any of their own personal projects, I'd love to get involved in any way that I can. I would love the learning experience, being able to share idea, and being able to be able to be part of something that will provide entertainment to those around me (I know you all love playing games! I know I do). Also, if there are any clubs, etc, I'm down!

For the time being, I am getting caught up on some of the programming concepts of the here and now. Engineers tend to use the most rudimentary and old fashioned methods to solve problems so I am finding that moving from C to say, C#, while not difficult, requires a change in thinking. Also, I have little to no experience with things like .NET and, again, it's not hard at all. But it is a lot of information to absorb right now. I'm looking to see what other people are working with and gain as much insight as humanly possible. So please, feed me what you can!

I apologize in advance that this post turned into a short story but I would really appreciate it if some of you took the time to read it all and give me some feedback. Forgive any spelling and/or grammar mistakes as I'm at work and I had to type this up really fast. Also, feel free to ask me any questions if you need to know anything else.

Eric

[jamonathin]

Aye it was quite the short story . I don't know a whole lot as to where you should go/do (you would know more than I would, seeing as you've gratuated and have been working for 3 years).

All I know is that most game making jobs require a B.Sc in Computer Science (gameDev) w/ 2+ years in the field. But seeing what you already have (which is pretty good *thumbs up*) who knows how flexible they would be - i dont lol..

Have you ever thought of joining a game making school? You know, one of those schools from those annoying commercials? I dont know how good they are but i know how much they cost so they better give you something.

I would think that the first years of a Bachelor would be pointless to you (seeing as you cant take it anyways for the overlapping purpose). You said a lot in your post but i guess we dont really know what you're capable of (seems like a lot tho).

I know this would probabily be a crude method to find out what you need, but I would say look at company websites and what they require. This way you know what you're looking at and not as much assuming. Im dont really know how company's work but if you get a job there, is it more of what you're capable of, rather than what pieces of paper say you can do? I dont know, but I would definately look into company websites, because more and more companies are blooming (i.e BigBlueBubble based out of London).

But best of luck to you and your future endevors, im shure you'll get what fills your disinterest.

[wtd]

Eric wrote:

I am finding that moving from C to say, C#, while not difficult, requires a change in thinking.

If it the object-oriented aspect which you find challenging, you may wish to experiment with other OO languages first. An interactive interpreter can be a huge help when you're just working on little stuff.

[Dan]

I think you should think over what makes you dislike your curent profession befor jumping in to another. Computer Science and programing can have there down sides too. You may find that what you dislike in your curent job is 10 times worse on the programing side.

Also game desging is not the same as programing, in alot of cases game desingers aucatly work with programers and the desingier is more of the creative sorce then the part that doses the coding. As jamonathin method above the stander requrments for geting a job as a game programer for a big company is an undergrad in compsci and at least 2 years expreice (in game programing or programing in general). Thos game schools can be good if you whont to be the game desinger or artest, but i whould recomend an undergrad in compsci at a uni over that for the programing part.

As for masters vs undergrad, it realy deepends on what you whont to do with it. For game programing i dougth there will be any requirments for a masters rather then an undergrad. From what i understand of my uni, you simple whould not have to do corses that overlaped to much and whould just be reuried to do the ones you have no yet for the undergrad.

I am realy not shure what kinds of corses they offer in the computer or eletoral engering programs, but you deftaly are going to need to have the conspects of progaming covered if you whont to do a masters. Computer Science tends to deal with the higher level langues well it sounds like computer engeinring deals with the lower level ones.

So in summery, i whould do an undergrad and then see if you realy need the masters to do what you whont. Affter all the masters programes ushely cost more. Also i whould sit down and think what you do not like about your job so you don't wast alot of time and moeny geting trained for one you may like less.

[Eric]

I appreciate the feedback so far. I'm guessing its pretty obvious that I were to go back to school, I should focus mainly on the higher level programming... avoid a lot of the theory, and mainly brush up on the maths related real world physics.

I have the "professional" experience but I still need to get experience related to the industry. I'd probably have to work on those things on my own time.

As for going to a "gaming" school, I've found that most of the programs offered by schools are geared towards the art, not the logic. For example, mainly working in autodesk applications rather than scripting/programming. However, There are a game schools that offer a CompSci degree directly geared towards gaming but it is not easy to get into at all. They require a programming portfolio that includes quite a few personal working game examples, etc. I couldn't apply right now if I wanted to.

My first step should be to establish when I'd feel comfortable applying for a job in that particular industry. As such, I'd need my arsenal - and I'd like to get something related to CompSci under my belt, mostly for the knowledge portion but also because I've learned that these degrees tend to also be for show. I've been to job interviews where they wanted to see that you had a degree but couldn't give a rats ass what you knew because they train you. Technically, anyone could have done the job but a consideration is only made to those with the degree. Also, given that I have equal experience/skills/selling points as a CompSci and applying for the same job in the game industry (and their final decision rested on looking at our degrees), I am willing to bet that they would always go the route of the other person. I could be sorely mistaken though!

I do not want to waste too much time so I'm trying to be as efficient as while making this transition... and that's why I'm asking you all for the best way to do this, even right down to the course level/focus (if I do decide to go back to school). Make sense?


H.Dan, there is a myriad of things that I do not appreciate about this job (and I'm sure most people will say the same thing about just about every other job out there). It could be the work and it could be the people. Many of these factors are completely uncontrollable. I've come to expect that most jobs aren't perfect. I can deal with that.

I believe the major disinterest I have with Fifth Light lies in the fact that I cannot relate their product/service. It serves little purpose to me on all levels. When a project is completed, I feel as if I have no connection to it.

Passion for the work you do is what allows you to overlook all the little things about a job that you don't like. It's what makes 8-10 hours fly by without thinking about it. When this crucial point is missing, work really does become "work". So I believe the major problem is that I have no passion towards what Fifth Light does. On a more general note, I'm not a big fan of designing hardware, compared to software.

I suppose if I were working on the next amd micro, or helping design the next playstation or high end graphics card, I would have a different view of things. I love computers and these are things I can relate to and I am definitely checking it all out while I consider CompSci. Before I abandon my field, I'm going to really look at what there is in my field that can keep me engaged.

E

[apomb]

You know, Eric... im in pretty much the exact opposite position you are. Though, im not in the industry of Software design, i am studying it, and i am finding out that it is not my passion. im more interested in the hardware/low-level programming. and higher level languages seem overly and needlessly complex to me. just thought i'd give you another opposing opinion of the programming side of things.

[Eric]

Thats actually very interesting. You're definitely not alone if that helps any. I can only suggest that if that's what you want to do, go for it!

The good news is that if you are looking to work with low level programming strictly, you will find the transition from what you are doing now to be really easy. Assembly and C are the 2 things you will use to program most any microchips. If you are looking to work with FPGAs, then it would be more something along the lines of VHDL. If you are looking to work with PLCs, then your looking more at structured text and ladder logic. Obviously there is more to it than just the languages, but the tools themselves are very simple and straight forward.

Now, if you're talking about designing hardware? That is a whole different animal that requires a lot of hands-on to get proper experience and familiarity. I still have lots to learn.

If you want to even step it up a little more and are talking about designing actual hardware components, such as microchips.... well, that's even a little beyond me. I've learned it in school but I use none of it right now. It is very interesting, though it is not my cup of tea.

[Tony]

well Eric, you should know that we go to Universities and get degrees to show that we can learn and succeed in a particular field/environment, not to actually learn anything

Hey, I've entered two of my software dev jobs with 0 practical experience for the languages/tools involved.

Though to be honest I've had plenty of related experience, and could easily show that I can pick up a new programming language within a week.

That being said, have you concidered contributing to an open sourced project? Obviously you don't get paid, but it's an amazing way to get some real world programming experience. I'm not sure how many open sourced game projects there are, but I've got to quote Davey from the XNA session we went to:

Davey wrote:

You've got to just code, and have many different projects to show for yourself, even if they are just little demos

Alright, I don't remember the exact quote, but something along those lines.

[Eric]

Yep! I do remember that, Tony.

That will be central in my mission. Definitely what we do in our own time is just as important (if not more important) that what credentials we have.

Getting involved in an open source project sounds like a great idea. I'll have to explore opportunities out there related to gaming.

[wtd]

Keep in mind that a project need not be related to gaming. Just being able to positively contribute to a collaborative project is a big deal, and navigating the many inherent problems in such a situation is mostly the same regardless of the actual code being produced.