Looking for a suggestion

[iker]

I've recently found out that I could not take my second year of programming in highschool, and since I could not do that, I've decided to learn Java on my own. Now I'm taking grade 11 computer engineering at a different school(the schools in town are on the same school board and crap), and we're barely touching programming in that class. I have already borowed a copy of the "ready to program" environment, and the textbook that goes with it from some of my teachers. Now, my question is, where should I start? I've already scanned about 200 pages of the book, and noticed many similarities between Java and Turing, and was wondering, what would be the easiest way to learn Java without thinking of how to make it like a Turing program.

If this isn't making any sence, read this paragraph, if it is, just skip it. What I mean is like when you speak english, and you try to learn french, you associate every french word with an english word and try to put it together like that, and end up with mixed words and a pile of crap. Same thing with Turing to Java. I know that Java isn't as linear, and works with procedures and functions that all can run at the same time, but I think 'put "Hey"' instead of 'c.println ("hey");'.

I'm planning on reading the book, going through almost every page, and reading some of the tutorials on compsci, but just need to know what would be the best way to go to Java from Turing.

[wtd]

If you aren't taking a class, skip Ready To Program and the information that was offered to you. From everything I know about it, it's just not that good. About the only purpose it serves is teaching kids how to pass tests tailored for Holtsoft's proprietary software.

You can get standard Java and good tools for dealing with it for free, and there's a boatload of information at java.sun.com.

Ready to Program is specifically designed to be like Turing. If you get away from materials tailored for RTP you'll see much more idiomatic code that looks a lot less like Turing.

Second... why are you limiting yourself to Java?

You don't seem to have any obligation to learn Java as part of a class, and you can find information and environments for other languages for free as well.

[Hikaru79]

wtd wrote:

Second... why are you limiting yourself to Java?

You don't seem to have any obligation to learn Java as part of a class, and you can find information and environments for other languages for free as well.

Because presumably he would like to be taking some computer science courses at a Canadian university later on, and (for better or worse), they use Java and expect you to have a rudimentary knowledge of it as well.

[wtd]

I learned a bunch of other languages before Java. You know how long it took me to figure out Java? A week at most.

I'm not saying never learn Java, but it's not the best choice for learning basic concepts.

[Andy]

i agree with wtd... learning java isnt hard once u know how to program.. i did very little java before university, and without even going to class, i was getting 95-100s on the programming part of my cs assignments in java... now the documentation, thats another story lol

[Martin]

Andy wrote:

i was getting 95-100s on the programming part of my cs assignments in java... now the documentation, thats another story lol

Hey, me too. After the first two assignments I was failing the class, yet my programs never failed a test case. Personally, I think that

code:

for (int i=0;i<someArray.length;++i)     someArray[i]=0;

is pretty self explanatory. Apparently not. If I had added a '//initialize everything in someArray to 0' I probably would have gotten full marks. And that's why I left CS.

---

Anyway, the second language that I learnt after Turing was C++, and I found it incredibly confusing, but I think at the same time it made me a much better programmer.

Java's a decent choice. It's pretty easy to use and great for enterprise applications because of its huge library and relatively safe code, but if you're learning just to learn you'll miss out on a lot of important concepts (why learn how to write a linked list when you can just use a java.util.List?). In any case, Java is really easy to pick up. Coming into university, I had never touched Java before. I got 100% on 'correctness' on my first Java assignment (and a whopping 5% or so on documentation, leaving my mark for the assignment at about a 40% - and yes, I put comments. Unfortunately, apparently they were looking for an engaging philosophical discussion of the importance of choosing 'i' for a loop iterator instead of some other letter).

That said, there're lots of languages out there, and none of them would be a bad choice (okay, very very few of them would be bad choices). Look through general programming - wtd has posted primers to a ton of interesting languages. Read through them and find one that you like.

[wtd]

Martin wrote:

code:

for (int i=0;i<someArray.length;++i)     someArray[i]=0;

I'd fail you for not writing:

code:

Arrays.fill(someArray, 0);

[Martin]

wtd wrote:

Martin wrote:

code:

for (int i=0;i<someArray.length;++i)     someArray[i]=0;

I'd fail you for not writing:

code:

Arrays.fill(someArray, 0);

Oooh, cool. At least in that case, I'd have learnt something

Another great thing about this CS course was that one of the TA's felt the need to indent some of the provided source files with a beautiful mixture of tabs and spaces.

[codemage]

We did Pascal in first year. 2nd year they switched to Java, and immediately started giving us assignments in it without actually telling us how to use it.

It was a harsh, but easy enough transition. Later on, we were instructed in the major differences that we hadn't taken advantage of yet.

If you didn't learn any object oriented programming with Turing, it's best you pick it up sooner than later if you're doing Java.

[wtd]

codemage wrote:

If you didn't learn any object oriented programming with Turing, it's best you pick it up sooner than later if you're doing Java.

Indeed. You can't do anything in Java without understanding object oriented programming.

I'll tell you a secret about how I "got" OOP. Java made my head hurt. I could get past the verbosity of it. It was too dense. So I gave up my first attempts to understand it.

Then a friend challenged me to learn Python. The ease of experimenting with classes and objects in Python finally got the basic OOP concepts through my thick skull.

This is not to sing the praises of Python above all other languages. With my experience now there are other languages (like Ruby) that I'd rather recommend.

You can learn from my trials and tribulations and not bang your head against the wall with Java.

[iker]

Actualy, I NEED to learn Java because I'm challenging the credit, where as in I only have to write the exam at the end of the semester without taking the course, and still get the credit. Seeing as how the course uses Ready, and I don't have the speed or time to download a Java editor/compiler, I'm probly going to stick with Ready. I've actualy made it about 1/4 the way through the book, and its making more sence then I thought it would have.
I'm thinking of learning Python or Basic just for my own knowledge later this year, or soon, but anyways, thanks for the help ALL.

[Naveg]

wtd wrote:

I learned a bunch of other languages before Java. You know how long it took me to figure out Java? A week at most.

I'm not saying never learn Java, but it's not the best choice for learning basic concepts.

And what would you suggest is, wtd?

Io, O'Caml, Ruby, and Python....in that order!

[wtd]

Naveg wrote:

wtd wrote:

I learned a bunch of other languages before Java. You know how long it took me to figure out Java? A week at most.

I'm not saying never learn Java, but it's not the best choice for learning basic concepts.

And what would you suggest is, wtd?

Io, O'Caml, Ruby, and Python....in that order!

Those are all not bad.

I'd suggest Ruby, personally. Of the languages mentioned it probably is the best semantic match for Java.

[iker]

Ruby it is then! Anyone know where the smallest download link of a Ruby environment or compiler or whatever I would need would be?

[Hikaru79]

iker wrote:

Ruby it is then! Anyone know where the smallest download link of a Ruby environment or compiler or whatever I would need would be?

There's a neat "one-click installer" at http://rubyinstaller.rubyforge.org/wiki/wiki.pl that not only installs a recent version of Ruby, but also Gems, FreeRIDE, fxri, SciTE, and a whole bunch of other useful Ruby tools. As far as Windows goes, its the best Ruby package available.

Enjoy!