Help deciding back-up (third choice) university

[CodeMonkey2000]

Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:47 pm wrote:

I personally don't like the programming language scheme despite how professors makes it sound like the best programming language in the world. coding in scheme is like writing an essay where you put the verb before the noun for every sentence.

Hey Scheme is awesome. The semantics and syntax of Scheme is very simple and natural. You are too used to Java/C++/Turing Plus there are a lot of things in scheme that I wish were in C/C++ (like lambda). If I was a highschool teacher, I would design my grade 11&12 CS classes like CS 135.


As for the work load for CS in UW, it really depends on your ability to grasp concepts. If you can understand things quickly, first term will be a breeze. You do get weekly assignments in (almost) every course, so if it takes you long to do assignments, managing your time is crucial. Math 135, math 137 and cs 135 wasn't terribly difficult for me. On average it takes me around 1-2 hrs to complete my assignments (for each class). For midterms/exams, review your notes and look at the mistakes you made on your assignments. There are old exams available, but I don't find them that useful. To me, the workload is greater than what it was in highschool, but it's still not too bad (I am commenting on first term, from what I hear it gets worse in 1B). The thing I like the most about university is that the amount of time you spend in classes is a lot less than in highschool. On Mon,Wed and Fri I'm in classes for around 5 hrs, and on Tues & Thurs 1 hr 20 min. Tues & Thurs is when I typically work on assignments, the rest of the time I'm free .

[Prabhakar Ragde]

DemonWasp @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:55 am wrote:

@Prabhakar: And, in general, those high school teachers were substantially better teachers.

Maybe your high school experience was better than mine, or that of my kids (one is in the middle of HS, one finished last year), or your university experience was worse. I found the level of teaching to be about comparable. There were a few inspirational teachers, many okay teachers, and some stinkers. The difference between high school and university is that the material in university is a lot better, and you're paying for it, so you tend to be more critical.

It's easy to blame the emphasis on research for poor teaching at university, but the fact is that both the university and high school systems, you can do a mediocre or even poor job of teaching and your paycheck is still secure, unless you don't show up to class or assault a student or something. There are always going to be people who take advantage of that. (It's not unique to education, either.) --PR

[Prabhakar Ragde]

CodeMonkey2000 @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:35 pm wrote:

You do get weekly assignments in (almost) every course, so if it takes you long to do assignments, managing your time is crucial.

I think this is the key: knowing how to manage your time and work efficiently. Don't leave things to the last minute, get help when you get stuck, plan ahead. Sounds like you're ahead of the pack in that respect. --PR

(PS Glad you like Scheme. It changed my life at a point where you wouldn't think that possible.)

[Superskull85]

Off topic, but I like Scheme as well.

I like how a lot of the language is straight forward and follows a concise layout where you don't have to think about whether the syntax will change ever so slightly just because it is a different feature in the language (like the basic arithmetics and function calls. In a lot of languages you would need to write something like (1 + 2) to add two numbers, but if you wanted to implement that via a function you would have to write "add (1, 2)".).

The other thing I like about Scheme is the freedom of naming variables and definitions. The language feels less restrictive when the programmer has the freedom to name things as he/she wishes.

Now there is an aspect of Scheme that I am not too fond of, and that is having to use parenthesis's all the time. I personally find it confusing to look at, but that is just a minor drawback about the language.

If I had the chance to use Scheme in mandatory studies I would definitely enjoy using the language.

Also time management is the key to success in my opinion as well. I've met a bunch of Engineering students that have a hard time with their studies because they are not able to manage their unusual amount of courses. I do not know how easy or hard Engineering in general is, but I think time management would of helped them tremendously through term one.

[endless]

Horus, are you from SJ?

Tony @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:34 pm wrote:

Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:47 pm wrote:

For residence, I recommend st.Jerome's.

Keep in mind that St. Jerome's residence is a part of SJU, an associated college across the river from UW. And they have their own set of rules, independent from UW and UW's residences:

Quote:

In all of our activities and practices, St. Jerome's University functions within the context of the Roman Catholic tradition and the principles of academic freedom.

Though I hear that it's not too bad.

i'm living here at SJ right now (although have all classes on main campus) and it is definitely epic, i would prefer any of the affiliated colleges for residence (Note that i am not religious at all, and i don't think many are here, but maybe that's due to SJ being mostly math people.) just because of the smaller community, and the caf here is awesome. i hear the main campus res' are fine with underage drinking, which is the difference here at SJ, it is pretty strict in that respect.

[Horus]

@endless, no, I live in UWP. But i got a friend who's in STJ so I go to STJ very often and come to realize it's a great place.

@CodeMonkey2000
If you are too used to the "natural" way of coding. You'll have a hard time coding in unnatural programs like C++/java etc... where those are the languages used to write real applications.

[CodeMonkey2000]

I still experiment with C++ and openGL on the side. I've been using C++ since grade 9 (when I taught myself).

[Tony]

Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:21 pm wrote:

You'll have a hard time coding in unnatural programs like C++/java etc... where those are the languages used to write real applications.

Assuming one would even want to write "real applications", whatever that means...

[Prabhakar Ragde]

Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:21 pm wrote:

If you are too used to the "natural" way of coding. You'll have a hard time coding in unnatural programs like C++/java etc... where those are the languages used to write real applications.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. Computer scientists should learn to handle many different styles of coding, and choose the one best suited to the task at hand. But in the learning process, a language with minimal syntax and good abstraction capabilities is a win. --PR

[Prabhakar Ragde]

Superskull85 @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:46 pm wrote:

Now there is an aspect of Scheme that I am not too fond of, and that is having to use parenthesis's all the time. I personally find it confusing to look at, but that is just a minor drawback about the language.

You learn to look past them.

There are three big advantages of the parentheses.

1. Unifying functions and operators, so you don't have to think about precedence and ordering.

2. Making code look similar to data, so that you can easily talk about Scheme programs which manipulate other Scheme programs. (* 2 3) is a Scheme expression that evaluates to 6. '(* 2 3) is a list of length 3 that you can manipulate. You learn a lot by writing Scheme interpreters in Scheme.

3. Making macros easy to write. Macros let you add syntax to the language by expressing rules of the form "If code looks like this [pattern], rewrite it like this [template]". Scheme's macro system goes well beyond the primitive C preprocessor (e.g. Scheme macros can be recursive, and hygiene takes care of potential name clashes). Advanced features of the system bring point 2 into play as well.

--PR

[DemonWasp]

Prabhakar Ragde @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:39 pm wrote:

Maybe your high school experience was better than mine, or that of my kids ... or your university experience was worse. I found the level of teaching to be about comparable.

It must have been. I went to the new school in the area (SJAM) when it opened, and it pulled a lot of really good teachers in. I won't name anyone, but I've been very disappointed in a few professors at UW because of their lack of enthusiasm, poor presentation skills and scattered thought processes. It may not help the problem that high school was mostly coasting for me, whereas university is decidedly not.

[Euphoracle]

Clearly you had a different high school experience than me as well. The profs I have are a blessing in comparison.

[[Gandalf]]

Heh, I enjoyed my high school experience as well. I guess it really does depend on the person. I appreciate the idea of receiving a broad education, while the whole business of specializing in a topic or two disheartens me. Focusing on a limited set of topics, while perhaps beneficial to society, fosters people's biases and to some extent encourages them to 'live in a box'.

Sidetracking the topic a bit, sorry.

[Prabhakar Ragde]

Gandalf: you are absolutely right. And the trick is to, first of all, get as broad an education as you can within the constraints of your chosen program, and second of all, never stop learning, even after your formal education is done. Unfortunately an affordable, high-quality liberal-arts education is hard to come by these days, and definitely undervalued.

[Horus]

Prabhakar Ragde @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:07 pm wrote:

Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:21 pm wrote:

If you are too used to the "natural" way of coding. You'll have a hard time coding in unnatural programs like C++/java etc... where those are the languages used to write real applications.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. Computer scientists should learn to handle many different styles of coding, and choose the one best suited to the task at hand. But in the learning process, a language with minimal syntax and good abstraction capabilities is a win. --PR

True that, except shouldn't the school consider teaching the languages that the students need to know immediately rather than a language that can be taught later?
For coop, most programming jobs requires you to use C++/java. When scheme was introduced in 2008, the coop rate for first year cs dropped significantly. According to the admission brochure I got in gr 12, the coop rate was 97% for cs, assuming that the number of people for coop is equal in all 6 work terms and all work term's coop rate is 100% except for the first, the first year coop rate for 2007-2008 would still be 82%. But in 2008-2009 (according to tony: http://compsci.ca/v3/viewtopic.php?t=20978) the coop rate for first year cs dropped to 53%. Sure, recession might played a role, but it did not affect much for SE which is still 71%. Now, SE and CS have almost identical courses with the exception of the CS course, CS is learning scheme in first year, while SE goes for C. So doesn't scheme lower the first year coop rate?