The amount of mathematics in CS...

[Prabhakar Ragde]

Gandalf @ Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:15 am wrote:

Prabhakar Ragde @ 2009-03-24, 9:36 am wrote:

I also looked at McMaster (I didn't do much of this looking around, because none of these places make searching for this information very easy) and counted three or four math courses.

I think all this comes down is what you're accustomed to, and a good Google search will usually do the trick.

There is no need to be condescending. A Google search will not quickly deliver the full picture (as the rest of your message makes clear).

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Prabhakar Ragde @ 2009-03-24, 9:36 am wrote:

Not everyone takes a Specialist stream at U of T -- that's their premium brand. As far as I can tell, the straight Major requires one calculus, one algebra, and one probability/stats. They have a CS course that is covering similar ground to our Math 135, also, and no real equivalent to our CS 245.

Not everyone takes the BMath at Waterloo either, that's their premium brand. I doubt if you were to check the statistics you'd find a large difference in the percentages of CS students who take those programs (BMath and Specialist). So we're still at Waterloo not having more math in CS than every other university. I don't see how you can continue defending that clearly exaggerated and groundless comment.

I didn't make the comment -- it was made by a former UW student who graduated at a time when it was true. We have since reduced the requirements in both Math and CS to allow for more flexibility and the possibility of joint programs such as Bioinformatics and CFM. In what I've said above, I've been comparing the BCS (not the BMath/CS) to other institutions, and for U of T, the fairest comparison is to the Major program. We have no equivalent of the Specialist program in terms of diploma recognition, though I would argue that the quality of our Math courses, the explicit connections made in the curriculum, the advanced Math/CS courses, the possibility of joint/double majors (CS/C&O is common), and the general effect of being in a Faculty of Mathematics (many BCS students take Calc 3, for example, even though it is not required) combine to lift our connections to math above those that you would encounter in other CS programs.

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No real equivalent to Waterloo's CS245, "Logic and Computation"? Sounds like U of T's CSC236, "Introduction to the Theory of Computation".

I teach CS 245 and I am old friends with the developer of CSC236, and they are different courses. CS 245 is a course in mathematical logic and its relationship to computer science, and is considerably more mathematical than both CSC236 (or, for that matter, than the nonmajor PMath 330 at UW). The closest UT equivalent to UW's CS 245 is CSC330 (not required). CSC236 covers algorithm correctness and analysis and the basics of formal languages, material that we at UW cover in CS 136 and CS 241.

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Plus, where Waterloo has one course that another university doesn't, another university will have a course that Waterloo doesn't. Math and CS included.

If you're going to dismiss Waterloo as no better than anywhere else on the grounds that everyone requires 40 courses or equivalent for a degree, there's not much I can say to change your mind. I am not knocking UT; it's a good program, though I would suggest that their focus really is on their grad program and on the select number of their undergraduates that they can convince to attend grad school with them. (Waterloo may be headed in this direction as well.) I also think that aspects of Waterloo's reputation are exaggerated, and I have no interest in perpetuating mythology. The fact that our ACM Programming Contest teams have historically done well, for example, says nothing about the quality of our education, since the particular skills involved in a programming contest are a small fraction of the skill-set that should be imparted by a CS program, and the individuals on those teams exercising those skills did not necessarily pick them up in UW classrooms. Nor is every course at UW a life-changing experience; as at other places, there is far too much indifferent teaching and watering-down of content for the sake of expediency. However, when it comes to the influence of math and its integration into the CS curriculum, few institutions can match UW, and none with comparable numbers of students.

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