Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

[Zeroth]

Offtopic: @btiffin, you're making the mistake of thinking trickle-down economics actually works. There are many arguments to each side about the walmart phenomenon. One side insists because we pay less, there is less overall benefit, and that walmart ruins jobs, etc. The other side insists that because people pay less at walmart, the lower and lower-middle classes are affected more strongly than by any trickle-down effect. By saving more money, those people can spend that extra money where they need to elsewhere after buying the essentials(that's presuming they are smart with their money). The problem is: both sides are right.

Walmart can and does eliminate small businesses; but the catch is that the small businesses that die could not compete and would usually have closed down anyways. These are usually mom and pop stores that hire maybe 1, 2, 3 employees or their family, and have pretty high prices. I have no statistics on the number of small stores that close down, but its easy to see that Walmart likely creates more jobs than were lost.

Walmart can and does inflict pressure on companies; this is solely to improve Walmart's bottom line, because if their suppliers run things more efficiently and cheaper, the savings can be passed on to the consumer. Dealing with Walmart forces a company to modernize and grow up. In this day and age, expecting a company to have effective shipping and logistics should be the norm, not the exception. Some companies cannot handle this, so they die. Other companies deal with walmart via products, and find that they need walmart, but they can't say No to walmart. They either lose money with walmart or lose money without walmart. Again, this is not a bad thing. While sad, while seemingly cruel, it is just business. It is capitalism, and if you can't keep up, so long and thanks for all the fish.

Walmart pays competitive wages and benefits; instead of trying to gouge their employee's pay for as much as they can, Walmart pays just above the average wage for the local area. For example, here in Kelowna, Walmart pays about $12/hour starting wage. They don't have to, but they do anyways.

The problem is that people don't see capitalism for what it is, and instead apply their PC, soft little bunny ideals to it. Competition is good. Failed competition, while sad, indicates they could not keep up. Capitalism is tough. Many companies do it wrong today, but Walmart does it right. They know where they should spend their money, and where they should make things more cost-effective. They run with lower energy costs overall than any other big box store. They used their position to create market pressure FOR environmentally healthy packaging and products, like fluorescent lights.

Overall, Walmart does more good than bad, because they know that it creates a more profitable environment. But, Walmart is neither good nor bad. They can't be judged that way.

[btiffin]

Continuing offtopic

Well, I'll disagree. I'll admit, I'm Socialist, NDP gets my vote everytime.

WalMart and unfettered Capitalism is bad. As is unfettered Communism, or unfettered anything.

Humans are greedy. We base our political system around the myth of "Truth and Honour and Justice". If the Canadian Charter started with the words,

... as can be demonstrably justified by wealth mongering greedy powerful individuals...

instead of

Quote:

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

then at least we the people would have a chance, as the system would be based on a truth and not a fictitious myth/promise.

But I'll agree; can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. But make it a heat people can see, not some hidden backroom hack crap that is the reality.

I'll also disagree. WalMart does more bad than good, mainly due to much of the dealings being political and backroom. (in my, socialist, humble opinion) and humans en masse (again, I include myself) are idiots and need parents that don't screw them over in the dark.

A case in point (but actually this is from the other direction ... but applies I think). I used to hire summer students. I didn't NEED anything, I was just a contractor with some spare cash. I taught them SNOBOL and Icon. Working out of my house, I would leave them to go to work. This was solely for the purpose of giving a few people a leg up on the "I have paid experience programming" entry on a Resume. I once called a government office, so the students could perhaps pocket a little more money. I got a call, we have someone for you and we'll cover one third of the paycheque. My plan was to just hand that money over as "bonus". I told them that I needed someone I could trust alone in my home, and that they would trust to do the paperwork that they needed doing. I got a response of "hey what are you upto? We need a babysitter type employer. We don't trust you. This is fishy.". Of course it was fishy; people that pay people "just because" is not in normal human nature. So I told them, no thanks, keep your money, it's ok. I can only hope I helped these students start a better career. I feel that, in the long run, that is good for me and everyone else. If it cost me some retirement funds ... so be it.

Cheers

[nike52]

Outsourcing scares me, but every time I think I should jump the compsci ship, I don't know where to jump to. Everything else - trades, business, accounting, engineer - just isn't as appealing.

[Zeroth]

still offtopic..

I don't see any point where you actually try to refute my claims. You offer an anecdote, and we all know that an anecdote does not a pattern or proof make.

Basically, what I see in your post is a bunch of idealistic stuff. I've often found that the truth is always complicated, always many sides to it. Almost any sort of ideology, misguided belief, whatever, is always presented as THE SHINING PERFECT SOLUTION. The truth never is. Truth is boring, uncomfortable, and not interesting.

You should know better than to have a whole bunch of hand-wavy stuff that says that "this will fix everything" or even some stuff. We're programmers. We're supposed to tell it straight.

We get enough hand-wavy stuff from the politicians. I'd like to know my fellow programmers are at least telling it straight.

What I've been coming to is a good mix of socialism and capitalism. The key tenet of capitalism is that self-interest benefits everyone. Call it greed if you want. However, the further stipulation is that the business owner's self-interest MUST benefit the customer's self-interest. If you do not satisfy the customer's self-interest, then your own self-interest cannot be fulfilled without market manipulation, like monopolies, PR, laws and regulations. See how it is balanced? The customer's self-interest MUST be served to be successful. Second tenet that most friedmanite economists ignore: enviroment. The environment affects your employees, your customers, prices, supply, cost of benefits, etc. When looked at in that way, things that benefit the environment, whether that is a mental environment polluted with advertising and jingoistic media, or physical environment polluted with caustic chemicals, must be done. Serving the customer honestly, with an intent to satisfy the customer also lowers customer service costs, because there are fewer problems. So, the thing missing from most capitalist methods and plans is two basic necessary tenets: customer satisfaction and the environment. Anything that ignores those needs to act progressively more drastically to deal with the shortcomings.

Take for example cigarette companies. They know it harms their users. They know they place an undue load on the healthcare system. Their customers are dying every day, and they need new customers to fill the slack. Hence, they advertise to kids. Instead, if it were a product that was worth buying, that didn't kill its users... they wouldn't need to advertise to kids.

Socialism is an attempt to remove the cause of harmful companies, but that cause can never be removed. It is greed. However, greed can motivate people as well. The trick is finding a system that combines the motivation to succeed with the fairness and justice that a socialist system promises.

I am very much against friedmanite economics, but not because I am far left, but because I am rational. I don't believe any ideology will work, but only a mix of ideologies. Ideologies always have flaws. They always sound so perfect too. I would have thought you wouldn't fall for that.

-Zeroth
(Ps: good debate!)

[btiffin]

Still off
Good points Zeroth; but, as seen with the current situation, no we cannot trust a financial business owner to always look out for the best interest of customers. Proof in the current pudding. The Market is only good at self-regulation on the up swings. Down swings cause Socialist moves by Capitalist governments.

Regulation of human foibles is a good idea. Regulation of human feats is a good idea. Just because I think I should be able to drive faster than everyone else does not mean I should be able to drive faster than everyone else. Just because we think bankers and oil men are going to watch out for our interests over the long term does not mean we should let them do whatever whenever without watching.

And yes, my last post was rant and this is yet more lip flap. I doubt I'll ever influence the grand scheme, but I may influence an individual, to help another individual. Or perhaps someone here will become Prime Minister in the not too distant future and have that one little extra opinion about how reality is and how reality should be presented. If we all assume that wealth trumps wisdom, we'd be better off.

Would it really be so bad if we got that straight talk from the feds? There would not even be a need to change much, just be open about the root motivation.

And I'll admit, that I can't tell it straight. I haven't had the ear of an executive in a long time. Going on 10 years now. Perhaps a downside of not being in a cubicle. So my actual knowledge of out sourcing and off shoring is heresay and probably a fair ways off the truth of the situtation. Sadly for you lot, it won't stop me from flappin' gums.

Cheers,
Brian