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Computer Science Canada

Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target

Author:	Prabhakar Ragde [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
"Nearly all degree courses in video gaming at British universities leave graduates unfit to work in the industry[...]" I wonder what they'd think of programs at Canadian universities? --PR http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,2287204,00.html

Author:	apomb [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
I believe Tony covered this in his blog

Author:	Tony [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Quote: The games industry claims that Canadian government support has allowed it to flourish, and thousands of jobs are moving from Britain to Canada. You've seen my view on this, right? It's been pointed out elsewhere that the accreditation established is relatively new (3 years old?), speculating that not all of the courses had a chance to be evaluated... Though I don't think this would have a great impact on what this figure implies. I think Canada is doing well (as the quote suggests) simply because we don't yet have a lot of watered-down "game" courses at Universities.

Author:	Zeroth [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Is this general video game programming, or 3d animation/level design? There is a distinct difference. Then there are the courses teaching video game design, with the full overview of management, gameplay design, etc.

Author:	Prabhakar Ragde [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Tony @ Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:40 pm wrote: You've seen my view on this, right? Sorry for what is essentially a double post, then. I hadn't looked at the blog recently (it was awfully quiet for a while, so I stopped looking). --PR Edit: fixed formatting.

Author:	Tony [ Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
I'm still in between midterms. Though that's why we have RSS feeds, right?

Author:	apomb [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Tony @ Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:45 pm wrote: I'm still in between midterms. Though that's why we have RSS feeds, right? RSS Feeds are one of my favourite things since I discovered them... on the topic of your blog, though tony... you looking for any summer writers?

Author:	Reality Check [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Just by the commercials those game design colleges seem to be approaching game design in the wrong way. Not really surprised by this...but the number is quite high.

Author:	apomb [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
They seem to be targeted at unemployed schlubs who stay home during the day, and feel sorry for themselves. I was sick one day a couple weeks ago, and noticed that the wording is simple, yet harsh. And you rarely see those kinds of commercials at any other time of the day.

Author:	Reality Check [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Nice catch apomb. I mean, if you're an unemployed not so bright guy living in your parents' basement, surely you'd love to make cash making games and testing them. Chances are those people are already gamers and play all the time so the idea of making them or testing them for cash in just a year must be appealing. Little do they know what it actually takes to make a game.

Author:	Aziz [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
But Visual Basics are so easy!!!1!

Author:	Tony [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Aziz @ Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:30 pm wrote: But Visual Basics are so easy!!!1! Yes, all of them You just drag and drop an application together. Wow! Actually XNA is aiming at that, and Lee Winder (who commented on the /blog article) has wrote about that. It's easy to "drag and drop" (relatively speaking) together a pretty looking demo, and with some more effort -- a "marketplace" minigame. Though that hardly prepares one for a $20mil commercial game dev project.

Author:	Aziz [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
I could go on with the sarcastic comments, but I'm starting to want to kill myself when I do it.

Author:	apomb [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Reality Check @ Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:23 pm wrote: Nice catch apomb. I mean, if you're an unemployed not so bright guy living in your parents' basement, surely you'd love to make cash making games and testing them. Chances are those people are already gamers and play all the time so the idea of making them or testing them for cash in just a year must be appealing. Little do they know what it actually takes to make a game. exactly, and this probably accounts for a good portion of said 95% of inadequate developers. though, one cannot be too sure of statistics all the time.

Author:	Aziz [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Afterall, they're 41% made up, right? But I think you're in the ballpark here

Author:	CodeMonkey2000 [ Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
From what I hear, I want to stay away from game programming. According to a lot of people, you are over worked and under paid, especially at companies like EA. I do like game programming, but I guess I'll have to keep it as a hobby.

Author:	Reality Check [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Oh man EA would be a DREAM job I think. However, I got into programming FOR games. I've loved them and up to just a little while ago, thought I wanted to make them. Very recently my views have been swayed. I'm not so sure anymore if I want to be that guy and it's not about money or anything it's just I think I might enjoy my programming more making other things. I mean, I'd love to work at Adobe for example IF given the chance. I think I'd feel a little more accomplished in helping make an Adobe product over NHL 2011. But I have a lot of time to think about that I guess...first gotta finish my years at UW, hopefully get my masters and then I'll decide.

Author:	Aziz [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:25 am ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
There's a lot of different aspects to game development, even within the programming. There's separate teams for graphics engines, physics engines, game mechanics, and higher-level game tools, like map-editors, etc. etc. And that's what I know from just reading some articles and a lot of OXM/NP.

Author:	Reality Check [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
I think if I were dabble into the game industry, I'd want to be part of the team doing the Physics engines for the game. I find that most interesting I think.

Author:	DemonWasp [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:36 am ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Ew, EA Games? From what I've heard, they like to employ entire teams of people who have barely got a postsecondary education, and they have a habit of treating those people like dirt. No thanks.

Author:	Aziz [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:37 am ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Probably going to be my minor in uni next year.

Author:	Vermette [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:39 am ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Being treated like dirt? Join a frat

Author:	Aziz [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:59 am ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
No frat for me BTW, fellow Windsorite, http://blog.aaziz.org/but-what-about-my-star-wars-poster

Author:	Zeroth [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
I do want to point out that there is a strong misconception in the games industry. There are reams of independent developers and publishers, that treat their employees very well. If you're looking for good companies, but not neccessarily high pay, check them out. Get a subscription to gamasutra.com, and use their resources to find these companies. The unfortunate problem with a career in IT, or programming, is that you are only good at it, if you're enjoying it. Its not like a few other career paths where you don't need to be any certain type of person, just be skilled and knowledgable. In IT/Programming, you really need to have the right personality for it too.

Author:	Aziz [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
And it's not a common personality, either. CS isn't for everyone. It takes a "special" person to do those dirty jobs. Oh, and thanks for the link!

Author:	Zampano [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Aziz @ Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:04 pm wrote: And it's not a common personality, either. CS isn't for everyone. It takes a "special" person to do those dirty jobs. Oh, and thanks for the link! Way to make me fear inadequacy. is panicking

Author:	apomb [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Why would that make you panic? if its not for you, its not for you. and if you end up really liking the industry, then, well you're all set.

Author:	Zampano [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
I would panic because if not this, then there is obviously nothing else which I am meant for. I enjoy computer science immensely, and if some curse of genes were to keep me from excellence in it, it would be like the Prince banishing Romeo from Verona so that he can't see Juliet. Yeah, that's a poor analogy, but if I were to devote myself to this, and eventually be told "I'm sorry, the material is not in your head.", now that would be a crushing blow.

Author:	DemonWasp [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
If you're good at programming, I wouldn't worry too much. If you find yourself debugging classmates' code because you're better at it than they are, then you have no cause for worry. The fact that you're here, and have been so long enough to post 180+ times is probably sufficient to not worry.

Author:	apomb [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Have you felt this so far? What other hobbies do you have? Branch out, have a fallback, nothing is certain. But, if you feel so strongly towards CS, then wouldn't that be an indication that you DO have that predisposition to be in this field? Ask yourself those questions, and come to a conclusion that way, just like the good ol' Hitchhiker's Guide's cover says in large, friendly letters:: DON'T PANIC

Author:	Zeroth [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Are you in it for the money Zampano? Because it would be a great career? If you answered no to both of those questions, you are starting from the right reasons. When I say personality, I mean simple things like patience, creativity(anyone that says programming requires no creativity has never actually coded something NEW), as well as an appreciation and understanding of mathematical precision and logic. In short, the most capable and most valuable programmers are both creative and intensely logical. Does that help? Any commercials that say IT/Programming are a great career are trying to sell you something. IT is a difficult, thankless job, rewarding only in the challenges you face and solve. Programming, in 90% of the business world, involves coding up accountancy applications for internal use.

Author:	Aziz [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Quote: I would panic because if not this, then there is obviously nothing else which I am meant for. I enjoy computer science immensely That is the personality needed for CS. You make it what you will. You enjoy it - that's what's going to get you through all the tough times. It's the passion (I use that word cautiously when talking about computers ) that makes you a good person for it. If you get excited because Turing 4.1 came out, you're a nerd, and that's what you need to be

Author:	Reality Check [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
I enjoy it a lot for sure. Nothing feels better than a finished program you worked hard on and I think I'm in the same boat as Zampano. After doing all my years and whatnot I honestly don't know what I would do if I never make it far in the programming industry. It's not a HUGE worry but a worry nonetheless. The only other occupation I can remotely think of that I might enjoy is some form of writing. That's why after I get my 4 year CS degree at UW I want to get a Masters in something non-CS just to expand myself (more schooling is never bad I guess). It'll still be math related but not a masters in CS but yea this is a worry for me as well Zampano.

Author:	Aziz [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Just keep plugging away. You may have to relocate to a large city (or take up teaching!) though, as CS jobs are hard to find in smaller areas.

Author:	Reality Check [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Well I live in the GTA (Richmond Hill) and I REALLY don't want to relocate. I'd much prefer it if I could find a job here in Toronto or at the very least in Canada. I couldn't imagine myself living anywhere else...

Author:	Tony [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Reality Check @ Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:21 pm wrote: That's why after I get my 4 year CS degree at UW I want to get a Masters in something non-CS just to expand myself UW CS allows, nay -- requires, a bunch of elective courses. They want you to come out well rounded, and easily allows you to fit a minor or an option into the course schedule. You could always take extra classes at the under-grad level as well.

Author:	Prabhakar Ragde [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
DemonWasp @ Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:35 pm wrote: If you find yourself debugging classmates' code Don't do this, please. Of the students who drop out of CS, some can't do it because they lack the math/reasoning skills, or won't work on them; some find that the field isn't what they thought it would be; and some find other fields more interesting. --PR

Author:	Aziz [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Don't debug other classmates' code? Why not?

Author:	Reality Check [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
I think he is saying that debugging their code will result in them being unprepared if they decide to take a CS route in University. However, when I help debug code I tell them what they are doing wrong and I often try and get them to fix their own problem by asking them a question which has an obvious answer. I always try and get them to think as logically as they possibly can when approaching a debugging of their program and more often then not, this'll help them find their mistake.

Author:	Zeroth [ Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
Aziz @ Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:07 am wrote: Don't debug other classmates' code? Why not? Well, for one, plagiarism concerns. Two, they don't learn how to THINK logically. Theres a girl in my classes that gets all the guys to help... and she keeps making the same mistakes. I tried to explain to her why you need to change the guardian variable for a loop, and it didn't stick... as she made the same mistake AGAIN. Its not that she's not capable of doing the work... its that shes not taking the time to learn what the mistakes are caused by.

Author:	Aziz [ Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:12 am ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
I agree. Of course, like RC said, I explain to them. They write the code. Unfortunately, this girl thinks she's got the tools to do the job built in (to easily convince those poor fellows in your class to do her work for her). What you need to do is straight out tell her you're not into girls, or just give them a good squeeze and say "There, we got past that." Either way, you must ask her "Are you ready to listen or not?". If not, give up on her, and just ignore her. On a side note, I have a really annoying friend who likes to think he knows everything than get pissed when it doesn't work. It wasn't so bad in HTML or VB, but in Java, not so good. I either ended up telling him to - off or gave him my code to look at. He'd go home and spend 6 hours to get a half-working copy. He doesn't realy listen well and I have more important things to do than tutor him (without pay).

Author:	alex.john95 [ Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:Video games degrees: 95% fail to hit skills target
I don't agree with you. One of my friend is studying there in this university and he is satisfied with the course.

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