Computer Science Canada

DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Author:  QuantumPhysics [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Well first day of grade 12 has come I wanted to do C/C++ well guess what ... my teacher was indian and you know the thing about indians and programming is that most stick to high level programming in Java.... If we didn't have the new teacher then we would have still been doing C++ but unfortunately because we have a new teacher I will have to suffer through this goddamn JAVA class, let alone we are not even using eclipse... DAH i hate my life. So now I will go back to the stage of being a newbe on this forums and asking "How do i do this" questions in the sub forums FUCK MY LIFE!! WHY JAVA???? WHY??? The course description said C++.
Author:  md [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Stop complaining and learn Java. Use eclipse at home, choose an interesting project for the semester and go nuts. Or, learn C++ on your own at home using the same method. There is no reason to let a bad teacher (or just one who doesn't teach what you want to be taught) stop you from learning.
Author:  Zren [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Quote:
let alone we are not even using eclipse...


If you're learning how to compile using javac + command line, then that's good. If you keep it up for the whole course though... If that's the case, find a portable version of eclipse.
Author:  Insectoid [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Java does indeed suck, but it's good to have a grasp of 2-3 languages. Java plays nicely in some respects (class declarations, file inclusions, etc) compared to C++, but C++ is nicer in other ways.

I hate Java. I really do. But Java will offer learning opportunities that C++ won't. Unfortunately your teacher is going to expect GUIs, just because Java can do it. And you're going to write GUIs even though you hate it, because console I/O takes just as much work as a button (seriously, console input takes like 5 lines of code just to set it up- wtf?).

Quote:
So now I will go back to the stage of being a newbe on this forums and asking "How do i do this" questions in the sub forums


No you won't. Yeah, you'll ask questions, but you won't ask stupid ones. If you know C++, you'll need no help on the logic since lots of it is the same. You'll run into syntax problems, but then you can google "How do I do X in Java" and most times the first result is your answer. Just because you're doing Java doesn't mean you're back at square 1.
Author:  Tony [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Just a reminder -- Computer Science as Science is language independent. The algorithms are all math; C++ or Java are just implementations to see those algorithms run.
Author:  QuantumPhysics [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
md @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:27 pm wrote:
Stop complaining and learn Java. Use eclipse at home, choose an interesting project for the semester and go nuts. Or, learn C++ on your own at home using the same method. There is no reason to let a bad teacher (or just one who doesn't teach what you want to be taught) stop you from learning.


Please regard that - I know C/C++ to their full potential. I know java aswell. I just hate it.
Author:  QuantumPhysics [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
md @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:27 pm wrote:
Stop complaining and learn Java. Use eclipse at home, choose an interesting project for the semester and go nuts. Or, learn C++ on your own at home using the same method. There is no reason to let a bad teacher (or just one who doesn't teach what you want to be taught) stop you from learning.


Please regard that - I know C/C++ to their full potential. I know java as well. I just hate it. All i'm complaining about is the fact that the course description (once i chose selected it on course selection) said that we will be learning C++, I took the course for 2 reasons. Firstly I love Computers and every single bit increment and value that they include/possess. secondly it would have been an easy 100% on my finals, but now I'll get a 80 - 90 (because of my hate for java) and i just hate how the course code lied to us and that we are NOT allowed to use eclipse. Is what I'm saying. I use eclipse at home though. But i just dislike java. IMO



EDIT: Okay, there is something wrong here, when i tried to post the post above, the beginning of this the server replied - "You have posted too many posts in a short while", so i kept on typing on this topic and once I submitted it, I looked above and apparently it posted the previous one that gave me this error ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. But strange enough it still made the post.

P.S. I'm still writing the computer contest(s) in my beloved one - C++ I won't let the measly course hang me down to java.
Author:  QuantumPhysics [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Insectoid @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:01 pm wrote:
Java does indeed suck, but it's good to have a grasp of 2-3 languages. Java plays nicely in some respects (class declarations, file inclusions, etc) compared to C++, but C++ is nicer in other ways.

I hate Java. I really do. But Java will offer learning opportunities that C++ won't. Unfortunately your teacher is going to expect GUIs, just because Java can do it. And you're going to write GUIs even though you hate it, because console I/O takes just as much work as a button (seriously, console input takes like 5 lines of code just to set it up- wtf?).

Quote:
So now I will go back to the stage of being a newbe on this forums and asking "How do i do this" questions in the sub forums


No you won't. Yeah, you'll ask questions, but you won't ask stupid ones. If you know C++, you'll need no help on the logic since lots of it is the same. You'll run into syntax problems, but then you can google "How do I do X in Java" and most times the first result is your answer. Just because you're doing Java doesn't mean you're back at square 1.
Insectoid wrote:

Java does indeed suck, but it's good to have a grasp of 2-3 languages. Java plays nicely in some respects (class declarations, file inclusions, etc) compared to C++, but C++ is nicer in other ways.

I hate Java. I really do. But Java will offer learning opportunities that C++ won't. Unfortunately your teacher is going to expect GUIs, just because Java can do it. And you're going to write GUIs even though you hate it, because console I/O takes just as much work as a button (seriously, console input takes like 5 lines of code just to set it up- wtf?).

Quote:
So now I will go back to the stage of being a newbe on this forums and asking "How do i do this" questions in the sub forums


No you won't. Yeah, you'll ask questions, but you won't ask stupid ones. If you know C++, you'll need no help on the logic since lots of it is the same. You'll run into syntax problems, but then you can google "How do I do X in Java" and most times the first result is your answer. Just because you're doing Java doesn't mean you're back at square 1.


I LOVE YOU! Firstly, you abide to the fact that java sucks Very Happy Secondly, I also think that as a programmer you need to have nice handle of 2 or more languages (very nice). Although you mentioned GUI in java. I know GUI in C++, i do Native API using LRESULT CALLBACK... along those lines. I find that GUI/OOP much more easier than the one java offers. Bleh the syntax in java is soo long and stressful. Some of the syntax reads one thing and explains/elaborates into a whole other. Its so confused aaah! I love your thoughts about Java though!
Author:  QuantumPhysics [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Tony @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:14 pm wrote:
Just a reminder -- Computer Science as Science is language independent. The algorithms are all math; C++ or Java are just implementations to see those algorithms run.


But you can run those algorithms in any language. Are you saying that Java has algorithms that C++ does not? Can you please elaborate. You may have brought up a brilliant point here I just fail somehow to see what you have said.
Author:  mirhagk [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Tony was saying the language is irrelevant since every language is exactly the same in terms of capability, the only difference is the ease of doing certain things. And I would be very surprised if you knew C/C++ to their full potential, since even people who make compilers for C/C++ still don't know it to the FULL potential, and there are ALWAYS new things to learn.

I also hate Java, because I find it to be a lot of bloat without a lot of use. They have abstract syntax, but force strange low-level concepts on you.

Also if they don't let you use an IDE, then what are they letting you do in terms of debugging? IDE-less debugging would be a HUGE pain, and good luck with that lol.

But have fun, code in C++ (or even a new language) at home, and just breeze through java at school
Author:  QuantumPhysics [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
mirhagk @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:28 pm wrote:
Tony was saying the language is irrelevant since every language is exactly the same in terms of capability, the only difference is the ease of doing certain things. And I would be very surprised if you knew C/C++ to their full potential, since even people who make compilers for C/C++ still don't know it to the FULL potential, and there are ALWAYS new things to learn.

I also hate Java, because I find it to be a lot of bloat without a lot of use. They have abstract syntax, but force strange low-level concepts on you.

Also if they don't let you use an IDE, then what are they letting you do in terms of debugging? IDE-less debugging would be a HUGE pain, and good luck with that lol.

But have fun, code in C++ (or even a new language) at home, and just breeze through java at school


Yes praise thee. Another java hater Very Happy Join my army! I would love to have everyone's facts against why Java is bad and use it against my teacher to prove her wrong. In her case she says that Java is the best language out of every other language and computers would be nowhere without it. They are letting us use a IDE, but it is one like a kindergarten IDE, its called Learning to program Java. Its like turing but even worse. I'm going to use eclipse anyways because it has everything that you can use in the one i stated above and more, i don't care what she says. It's still Java and the same syntax. I love C++, but I am really getting into debugging/reverse engineering with the olly debugger, and so far I am pretty good at it. Olly debugger is free by the way, you probably heard of it. I am not saying I know every single 'bit' of C++ but I know enough to allow me to do anything that I am put against, or anything that I do on a daily basis. Though my main interest is algorithms, cryptology, networking and security. Thanks though.

And now I would like to move back to the post I made to tony, I very much agree with the fact that every language is the same, or atleast they have a lot in common. The syntax would be different but yea I see however that the language(s) performs' the same operation. Thanks for that.
Author:  mirhagk [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Your teacher does have a point, Java was a very important part of our history, and only recently are other things taking it's place. Java was unique in that it did Just-In-Time compilation, which meant it could be run on any system in the world that supported Java, and it would be converted to actually machine language as it's run. JIT is pretty amazing stuff, as you get the power of a compiled language with the flexibility of a scripting language.

I would still use Java over many other languages (like the terrible horrendous language apple has chosen for it's mobile platform). It is probably like 4th on my list for programming languages to use (C#, C++, Python, Java if you were wondering).

Don't worry about convincing your teacher Java sucks, convince your teacher that programming doesn't depend on the language, and that by limiting the language she's really only cutting corners for her own sake, she's not helping the students out. My comp sci teacher would let us hand in work in any language we chose, it didn't matter to him. He'd compile and run it, see if it worked, and then perused the code to check for comments and stuff. He didn't even need to learn the language in most scenarios, and even if he did, it's easy to learn. It's better to convince a teacher all languages are equivalent then to complain about the language she choose. Be positive rather than negative.

Learn about the universal turing machine, and how it works, and learn about algorithms and language independence, and fight her with that. If she's being unreasonable see where her limit is. Would you be able to accept command line parameters to control program flow? Dynamic expressions? Interpret another language in Java.

If you absolutely can't do Java, see if you can find a cross-language compiler. and use that. Just make sure to test the final result, and add comments/clean it up.
Author:  DemonWasp [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Insectoid wrote:
console input takes like 5 lines of code just to set it up- wtf?


Java:

Scanner in = new Scanner ( System.in );


mirhagk @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:18 pm wrote:
Java was unique in that it did Just-In-Time compilation,

False, many other languages had JIT first. LISP, in particular, had JIT 30 years before Java was even invented ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation#History ).

mirhagk @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:18 pm wrote:
which meant it could be run on any system in the world that supported Java.

That has nothing to do with JIT, that has to do with the JVM. The JVM implementation may (or may not) use JIT to handle code execution. The standard JVMs didn't have JIT until Java 1.4; prior to that, Java was incredibly slow, because it was always interpreted.

I would also love to have some examples of both "bloat" and "strange low-level concepts".
Author:  mirhagk [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Hmm didn't know LISP did it. I knew java didn't invent it, but it certainly popularized it. I am actually amazed that Java didn't have JIT originally, and more amazed at how anyone could use it if it was interpreted (especially since it is not very abstract for an interpreted language)

And the low level concepts that carry over are things such as the difference between an int and an Integer, and how .equals sometimes needs to be used instead of just ==
see here for more info:
http://compsci.ca/v3/viewtopic.php?t=9877 For a interpreted language it has some terrible compiled languages bloat.

Bloat is less obvious, but I just find Java to be not much more expressive than C++ with a lot more overhead in terms of code that must be written. The bloat part is really just a personal opinion, others may find it more useful.
Author:  QuantumPhysics [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Well, thank you guys for all your great advice, and thank you mirhagk for the great points of defense against my rebellion. Thanks.
Author:  md [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
QuantumPhysics @ 2012-09-05, 6:00 pm wrote:
md @ Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:27 pm wrote:
Stop complaining and learn Java. Use eclipse at home, choose an interesting project for the semester and go nuts. Or, learn C++ on your own at home using the same method. There is no reason to let a bad teacher (or just one who doesn't teach what you want to be taught) stop you from learning.


Please regard that - I know C/C++ to their full potential. I know java aswell. I just hate it.


The world is too small to hate a language, might as well learn to embrace it - hence the choosing a project for the semester and going nuts. Though, for the record I'd complain bitterly and possibly take the issue to the administration (especially if you have lots and lots of documented proof).
Author:  Tony [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
The thing is that if you "know C/C++ to their full potential", then you are not going to learn anything new at the high school level. The class would be preoccupied with debugging their out-of-bounds errors and segfaults. The truth is that the pace of a high school class is set by min(school_guidelines, average_student); and even at the University level, the bulk of CS majors have trouble being comfortable with pointers*.

Doing this class in either language will be about as easy. Though once you are proficient enough at C++, doing a few months of Java will make you a better C++ programmer, then doing the same number of months with trivial tasks in C++. Reason being is that Java encourages a somewhat different way of thinking about problems. You might not like the language as a whole, but given enough chance, you could pick out just the best parts, and bring them back to your C++ coding.

* I once had a job offer, seemingly based on the fact that I could competently answer questions about pointers in code.

P.S. being able to talk well about the differences between C++ and Java make you look really really good in just about any technical interview.
Author:  wtd [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
I'd just like to add that you aren't allowed to hate Java until you know it well.
Author:  QuantumPhysics [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
wtd @ Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:29 am wrote:
I'd just like to add that you aren't allowed to hate Java until you know it well.


Well, from what I have learned here is I WILL have to learn it before I can hate it. Thanks.
Author:  mirhagk [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Went to the first comp sci meeting at my university last week and somebody mentioned Java and half the group just about screamed at how terrible the language was lol. I didn't think it was that bad, as it's better than some alternatives IMO, but they hated it.

I haven't used Java lately, but is it still horrendously slow? That seemed to be the general consensus, but after working C# (which is supposed to be working the same way, JIT byte code) and seeing the speed difference be negligible to C++, I assumed Java would be the same. One person brought up the question "Name 1 decently written application written in Java" and I was kinda stuck. It's obvious when software is written in Java, yet the only application I could actually mention was minecraft, which is (well at least was when I played it) one of the worst written games out there. The game is great, but even with just about a day of coding I came up with better algorithms than minecraft used allowing more blocks, farther render distances and higher quality textures, even including normal maps for some non-blockiness included.
Author:  DemonWasp [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Java hasn't been slow since JIT was introduced, in version 1.4 (a decade ago). It's not quite C++ fast, but very few languages are (especially those that prevent you from shooting yourself in the foot / opening gaping security holes with a typo / crashing the system). I suppose if you insist on writing Java 1.3 that you will probably not have a good time when you compare it with modern everything else.

Most of the decently-written applications in Java aren't for the desktop, they're for servers. You don't "see" them because you just interact with them through a browser. You'll never know what's really running on that server unless the admins tell you (or, it's made obvious by a .php in the url or whatever).

MineCraft is not especially well-written. It is worth noting that, even though it's poorly written, it does have the distinct advantage that it runs on a LOT of devices "out of the box", which was part of the sell of Java.

Eclipse is some pretty great software, written entirely in Java, that runs on the desktop. It's not the fastest IDE, but it is one of the most flexible, powerful IDEs available.
Author:  2goto1 [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
DemonWasp is 100% correct. Students can't name many Java applications because commercial Java programs are not in a space that students are normally familiar with. Java runs tons of commercial stuff as server side applications. Java in a desktop and applet spaces has very little market share, and I can understand why students would not be impressed.

One of my favourite discount brokers is interactivebrokers. Not to pitch them at all, but their trading platform "GUI" is entirely Java. It works flawlessly and efficiently.

For a discount broker they have invested a great deal into making a fabulous Java front end. It even provides a proprietary API for developers to integrate with through their Java front end.

Not that that's why I selected them as my broker of choice - their low rates were the basis for my choice - their Java platform was just a very pleasant surprise.
Author:  md [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Crashplan is a very good consumer-level backup program written entirely in Java (though you likely wouldn't know it).

A well designed program shouldn't make it obvious which language it was written in, so how would anyone know if they were using Java apps?
Author:  mirhagk [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
well if someone uses the Java GUI instead of windows forms it's quite obvious, and you can tell by the dependencies. I think the opposite should be true of what you said. If someone doesn't know a program uses Java or .net before it's downloaded, then they either have to download it themselves after they try running/installing the software, or the software silently downloads frameworks (which is NOT a good thing).

Java is the last of the software that I install on a new PC, I always forget, and I rarely actually need it.

I've never seen Java really marketed well as a web platform, usually it's PHP or ASPX, with web software usually being ruby on rails.

While true that writing it in Java gives it access to lots of platforms, so do most modern languages.
Author:  DemonWasp [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
If someone uses Swing instead of OS-specific forms, it is usually noticeable. However, there's a lot of development based on SWT, which looks exactly like native controls (cross-platform, too) where available. An SWT application and a native application will generally look similar or identical, regardless of platform. You can see some of this effect in Eclipse, which looks native on all platforms.

There are some user-facing Java applications, though you rarely notice. For example Android is largely Java (well...Dalvik; it is Java but you can't call it "Java") for UI and application development.

If you've heard of Amazon EC2 or Jelastic, then you've heard of Java hosting. There's a surprising number of sites (both internal and external) operated by Java, and a fair bit of hard-core computation powered by things like Apache Hadoop.
Author:  mirhagk [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Yeah I know android is Java based, it's actually one of the few criticisms I have for android, and I want to check out the native development kit but it specifically says not to use it unless you absolutely have to.

Even without the guess that a Java IDE would be written in Java I knew eclipse was written in Java. It's a very ugly IDE IMO, not that the look really matters, but most modern design philosophy conflicts with it. Also the toolbars and tabs don't look native at all and the icons they use look much more like the java GUI then a native one. I guess it's conceivable that a java app could be indistinguishable, but they are surely few and far between, because I usually don't need the java framework.
Author:  Insectoid [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
jdownloader is written in Java, and it's quite obvious. Same with Eclipse. Both also have annoyingly long start-up times but work fine once they're running. My main gripe with Java is its absurd verbosity.
Author:  2goto1 [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Every programming language should use one to two traditional Chinese characters for all operations, classes, methods. That would be enough to likely support any language and it's entire framework. No verbosity whatsoever!

In all seriousness, it is good to have a balance for readability, barrier to entry, etc.
Author:  Zren [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Insectoid @ Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:05 pm wrote:
My main gripe with Java is its absurd verbosity.


Examples of this 'absurd verbosity'?
Author:  wtd [ Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
There can be only one really valid general criticism of Java, though it does especially apply in a learning environment.

Java is a lowest common denominator language in terms of programmer knowledge and capability. It aspires to nothing save mediocrity. It's obvious that there is a market for this, but I don't have to like that fact, nor should anyone who has bothered to register a username here.
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:07 am ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
All of this Java hate is pretty sad, since it's clear most of it is coming as a result of all the wrong reasons. Couldn't have said it better than wtd, "you aren't allowed to hate Java until you know it well." Anything else is just beginners frustration.

What's written in Java? More than you can imagine. A good majority of the world's phones use Java as do the backends to countless popular sites. Consumer desktop applications are a tiny subset of this. If you're going to criticize Java, popularity is about the worst reason you could pick out. Also, when hating on something like Java, I think it's important to make a distinction between the language and the platform.

I'd like to point out that for application development, the language matters a whole lot less than one might think. It's all about the tools and frameworks you have at your disposal. Games and a few other things excluded, most applications nowadays don't even require that much code... they're mostly just glue.
Author:  mirhagk [ Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
I agree that minus games and some specialized software applications don't require code really. Server programming, consumer apps, and mobile apps are all just knowing which API's to use, and throwing their API's together.

That's the reason why I want to get into video game design, or into specialized applications (like AI, or algorithm design), so that I can actually program, solve problems and reason, and not worry about whether the primary key of a database for a user should be used as the user ID or a 2nd number should be generated, which is pretty much the most academic conversation you'll have in regular programming.
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
mirhagk @ 2012-09-11, 8:54 am wrote:
Server programming, consumer apps, and mobile apps are all just knowing which API's to use, and throwing their API's together.

I was thinking more along the lines of mobile applications when I said that. You mentioned server programming. That is an extremely broad field with some crazy programming challenges: parallelization, security, robustness... These are all things which are super important in server side development, but aren't considered much in most apps.
Author:  mirhagk [ Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
sorry I meant like basic web servers, where you're essentially just building a link between html and SQL.
Author:  Panphobia [ Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Sadly, in grade 11 and 12 we've been learning java, and I started wondering if any other lang could be easier, not in concepts, I mean in simplicity, so I learned python, and man, whatever you can do in java you can do in python in 1/5 the code
Author:  mirhagk [ Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
If you learn the functional parts of C# you can shrink it again. C# is similar to Java, but it has a lot of really nice features in it.

Python is quick and dirty, but a mess to handle for large projects, and has some weird quirks to it. To quote my python professor "If you ever develop a nuclear weapon program, please don't use python"
Author:  SmokeMonster [ Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DAAAH JAVA I HATE you
Java hatred for me is hard to understand esp in the context of praising C++ when the two languages are largely interchangeable syntactically. Language hatred in general is pointless and a waste of energy. Do I prefer one language to another? Sure. Would I chose one language over another of given a choice? Yes. But spending time complaining about how horrible language x is is ultimately useless esp when your complaints are based on reasons that seem largely superficial.

Insectoid @ Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:05 pm wrote:
jdownloader is written in Java, and it's quite obvious. Same with Eclipse. Both also have annoyingly long start-up times but work fine once they're running. My main gripe with Java is its absurd verbosity.


Eclipse has a long startup type not because it's written in Java but because it's a non-trivial application. Last time I played with it it had a similar startup time to Visual Studio which is the closest comparison not written in Java. Startup time is not what Eclipse is going to optimize for, considering the typical use case of Eclipse is starting it once and then working on it for several hours before ending the day. In that situation it's reasonable the Eclipse team would optimize for responsiveness once the app is warmed up rather than the case of startup time. Verbosity is a complaint that's basically people blaming their problems on the language, you might post a straw-man class or method name to support your point but there's nothing inherent about the language that forces you to write verbose code. Certainly there's little about Java that forces one to write code that is more verbose then that of other OO languages in the curly brace language family (anonymous inner class hack to support the equivalent of closures is one big exception but not important in the context of this discussion since C++ only recently started supporting a sane syntax for closures)

:


You can syndicate this boards posts using the file backend.php or view the topic map using sitemap.php.

Terms of Use | Privacy Policy