I welcome the challenge
Oh and I'm not really complaining about how easy it is. Who doesn't want an easy 100% right? I'm just mad at the schools system...
Computer Science Canada Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
| Author: | Reality Check [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
http://rapidshare.com/files/123220613/ICS4M_Final_Exam_Mock_Test.rtf.html 100 out of those 200 were chosen. It makes me sick and pissed off that standards are so low and furthermore there IS no standard for CS. Some schools have it, some don't. Some have good programs, some have bad ones. I really think there needs to be a set curriculum in the school system especially since CS is so big in our world today. It also sucks more than many will struggle with this (I think this should have been taught in gr. 9). |
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| Author: | Prabhakar Ragde [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
You'll get decent CS exams next year. I don't want to hear you complaining about how difficult they are... |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
I welcome the challenge
Oh and I'm not really complaining about how easy it is. Who doesn't want an easy 100% right? I'm just mad at the schools system... |
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| Author: | Tony [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
I wouldn't even call this Computer Science. I think my favourite question on there is: Quote: Java was developed by: a. Microsoft. b. Apple. c. Sun Microsystems. d. W3C. |
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| Author: | syntax_error [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
thats a bit overly-multiple-choice-d no? In my grade 10 class (ICS 3M7) we actually have to write code by hand, and its not simple declaring crap, its like full out CCC questions, and in your multiple choice section it was like on hardware, so semantics and how the CPU works with the cache and crap like that, then array rep in memory how its capped and ya the list goes on.... |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
LOL yea I loved that question. The great thing is that this exam is on the computer! I remember in gr. 11 or 10 it was basic method declarations and operations. So it'd give us a numeric expression (sometimes Strings included) we'd have to figure out the output. Like this: What is the output of: c.println (4*3 + "tony who?"); Worst of all we STILL use console. Why the hell can't they teach us properly from the beginning? I asked my teacher this and his answer was: "Well the school pays for Ready and the Console is a resource provided to us by HSA so why not use it?" You need to write a blog on this issue Tony since I'm sure my school is not the only school  |
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| Author: | Tony [ Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Well no, the school does not pay for RTP, seeing as how Holtsoft has shut down. Though I've made a note to consider this for an article. |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
I guess he was just talking out of his ass then. He never did have a good reason for forcing us to use Ready or Console considering that we had Dr.Java loaded on the computers as well... |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
I just had my exam, and it was easier than I thought it would be (and I though it would be REALLY easy). We were even allowed to bring in a 1 page cheat sheet. I didn't even use it. we had 50 or so multiple choice, some true/false and some paragraph. There was some 'find the errors in this program' questions and overall, it was very easy! I finished it in 1 hour and 1 minute (less, actually, because we didn't start right on the dot), so I had to wait for 29 minutes before I could leave. (They let us out 1 hour in and then every half hour after). Pissed me off... |
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| Author: | Clayton [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Bullshit wrote: __F__ 31. The return type void means that the method will return a value. If you want to get picky, that is a true statement. The method will return void. More bullshit wrote: __B__ 91. Which extension must be included with an HTML document file name?
a. .txt c. .exe b. .htm d. .doc e. None of the Above Yep wrote: ____ 98. What effect does \n have when included in an output string?
a. Output is moved to the next line. b. A \n is displayed in the output. c. A tab (8 spaces) is displayed in the output. d. A N is displayed in the output. wtf? This is entirely dependent on the position of the newline character in the string 
Quote: ____ 101. Which outlines a solution using a mix of English and program code? a. flow chart c. pseudocode b. Java code d. source code Ruby 
Quote: ____ 126. Which keyword indicates a method will not return a value?
This question must be a toughie, it's asked 3 separate times.a. static c. public b. void d. call |
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| Author: | Tony [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:13 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! | ||
Oh, well if you want to be that picky... Quote: ___F_ 5. Comments affect the execution of a program.
Comments could affect the execution of a program, if it takes its own source code as an input 
Quote: __T__ 9. A variable must be declared before it is used.
Not necessary true for languages that are not Java. Actually there's a lot of questions that assume Java as the only language in existence. Though they inconstantly specify and omit that fact. Quote: ___T_ 22. A set of statements that perform a task over and over again based on a condition is called a loop structure.
How about tail-end recursion? Quote: __T__ 25. The for statement executes a set of statements a fixed number of times.
 Or throw a rand and/or time into the conditional part of it.
Quote: __T__ 34. The return statement is used to send a value back to the calling statement.
What Clayton has said. You can return out of void methods. Quote: __T__ 82. A file on disk is a set of characters, even if the file contains numeric data.
A file on disk is a set of binary values. Quote: __B__ 88. Which programming language is considered an object-oriented language?
a. Fortran c. SQL b. Java d. C As of the latest standard (Fortran 2003), Fortran supports OOP. Quote: __B__ 91. Which extension must be included with an HTML document file name?
File extensions are always optional. ... And that's just the first half |
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| Author: | McKenzie [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
I feel your pain Reality Check, but it's important that anything that is done is focused on making things better not simply trying to expose and shame any programs or teachers. The thing is, the powers that be know the disparity that exists in quality of Computer Science programs and there are no easy fixes. There are lots of reasons why CS is different than courses like math and history. I think the two biggest ones are that the field is constantly changing and it is fairly easy to find a good job with a CS degree. So good jobs draw away a lot of the best and the brightest and the ever-changing nature of CS makes it easy to fall behind as a CS teacher and no longer be able to deliver the most relevant material. I don't want to suggest that the situation is hopeless so there is no point in even talking about it. I think the only way to affect change is to post positive examples of how the CS courses should look. Perhaps an in-depth blog about "CS done right" might be useful. In an ideal world I could simply post unit plans, assignments and sample tests on ECOO.org and I could direct teachers there and everything would be grand. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Yea you could get nit picky about a lot of things. I asked him a few of them but I'm sure he didn't know what I was talking about. And while I understand a void method does return void, I assume by 'value' he meant something other than void. I'm going with how he marks. I wouldn't want to rebel and find technicalities at the risk of dropping. But anyways, I finished the exam in 40 minutes...a 2 hour grade 12 exam in 40 minutes. I mean, I was happy I guess. My mark was returned to me right away and I got 100% as expected but it felt so hollow. It sucked that most of the class took the full two hours for this. At a grade 12 level they really should know more... And while I agree CS changes so fast which could result in teacher being left behind, the concepts are still the same. And this is my argument. They need to stray away from teaching us things like syntax or anything like that and more towards the concepts and the fundamentals. Teach us some theory maybe, something that'll help us apply the skills. But really they are pretty much hard coding (lol) the course into our heads. Moving command by command and brick by brick. I don't need anyone telling me how to use this class, and what this class does, and what this command does. Nor do any of the other students. The only syntax that should be taught is basic, everything else can be learned through learning the concepts. Let's put it this way, if I am properly taught the fundamentals of a class, and method declarations, and the difference between accessors and modifiers, what 'static' is, inheritance, I can go into the Java help and find myself a class that I can use. WITHOUT anyone teaching me. Because for the most part, once I know how to use one class, I can use them all. Furthermore, I can apply my skills to make my own class for what I need. The rest in my opinion is self taught using the fundamentals. Like in Math, they teach us a general rule in a unit for example and it's my job to understand that rule and to know it perfectly. Using that rule, I can apply it to problems and use the rule to solve it. Each problem is different and my require different steps to solve but the fundamentals of the question is the same and uses that same rule I just learned. The teacher doesn't go out and teach us one by one the questions and how to approach each one. They teach on a general scale. Unfortunately in most CS high schools they take the "hard code" method of teaching. wtd's intro is a perfect example. In my opinion his teaches it perfectly. He doesn't bother with teaching us things we can learn on our own. He teaches us the fundamentals in his intro and using the fundamentals we can solve other problems. Those problems might require me to go out and learn a new class but the fundamentals of the question would be the same. In my class everyday he'd literally be like: "okay guys this is an arraylist class and this is how to use it". "This is the JButton class and this is how to use it". "This is bla bla bla class and this is how to use it". WHY NOT teach me how to use classes in general and then I can go out and explore and find the classes myself! It just makes me angry that CS doesn't get the same attention as some other courses. I think if they changed the name in high school from CS to Game Design more people would be interested which would result in more attention which would result in a better curriculum! |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Oh and LOL he threw in this one question that literally made me laugh out loud. In the T/F section: Computer machine language instructions use 0s and 2s to represent the status of a switch. That had me chuckling for a good 5 minutes. Oh and another one that had me laughing out loud from the T/F: An infinite loop continues forever. |
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| Author: | Tony [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Reality Check @ Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:22 pm wrote: An infinite loop continues forever.
It's a test in the basics of Java and reading! |
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| Author: | wtd [ Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Reality Check @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:16 am wrote: wtd's intro is a perfect example. In my opinion his teaches it perfectly. He doesn't bother with teaching us things we can learn on our own. He teaches us the fundamentals in his intro and using the fundamentals we can solve other problems.
There is a unifying principle behind this. All large problems are just collections of smaller problems. As a corollary, there is generally considerable repetition in these smaller problems. |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
^^Yea for sure. And I thank you for making that intro available to all of us. I learned more from that intro in one day of reading it over than I did in all three years of my high school CS classes. |
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| Author: | Zeroth [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
I know. In a lot of lower-level and crappy schools, they take the math way of educating, instead of the english way of educating. Take a look at this: http://technocrat.net/d/2007/4/3/17225 Math education is sorely lacking in being taught properly, and for the time being, our professors are using the english method. I'm glad that you're math education was better than usual, Reality Check. Typically, unless you have a phenomenal teacher, thats not the case. I was lucky in that I simply ignored everything the teacher said, and did things my way, which involved figuring out WHY a trig function returns that result. It gave me much higher marks than if I had listened to the teacher.  |
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| Author: | gitoxa [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
I just finished my gr. 11 CS exam. We were supposed to write a database for names, where the user could input names, delete names, sort them alphabetically, implement a binary search, display them on the screen in columns, and as extra, be able to read and write from files. I'm sure I was probably the only one in the class who found it kind of fun, heh. |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
I just did my gr. 10 CS exam, ridiculously easy. we had several programs to write on paper, such as Quote: Make a program that allowes the user to input the number of people and the number of jelly beans. The program must output the number of jellybeans each person may have, and the remainder. Simple div/mod question. also, there was this: Quote: Make a program that will input a name and print it backwards. Simple string manipulation in a decreasing for loop. There was 1 more, but I forget what it was. Zeroth wrote: figuring out WHY a trig function returns that result. It gave me much higher marks than if I had listened to the teacher. I've bean wondering that myself....Too lazy to actually find out though. |
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| Author: | jeffgreco13 [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
i personally think this topic is ridiculous... if ur CS exam was easy then just shut up and take the mark... let's be honest, if you're interested enough in computers to hang out around this forum frequently then chances are you are QUITE good with them, am I right? So of course you'll get a good mark... But what about those people who want to be doctors and need that Tech credit? You think they want to be there? Hell no!! You learn more about computers and programming and structure on your own then you will in a class so that's why it seems so easy. The teacher has to maintain a standard with the examinations. Make it challenging so that it tests the extent of the students' knowledge but at the same time make it possible to pass. Just because you have 95% in the class doesn't mean the teacher or prof has to make the exam especially hard for you. I'm obviously not telling you that it's a bad call coming to rant about it, cause that's what happens here... but nothing's going to change in the high school system. Naturally, the student with the most interest in the subject will get that superb mark... To complain about it being too easy, is cocky and stupid... imagine how your classmate that may have JUST passed it must feel. |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Quote: imagine how your classmate that may have JUST passed it must feel. Or the ones that JUST failed it. If it makes you happy, why don't I post this question, the answer to which I am not sure was input into my brain in the first place. Quote: A man going to work needs to have a fingerprint scan for security purposes. The computer doesn't let him in, even though he is an employee with full rights to enter. This is an example of: A: True positive error B: True negative error C: False positive error D. False negative error The rest of my class spent a class learning that; I spent the class listening to weird Al on youtube. Guess it's my fault, really... |
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| Author: | apomb [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
D: False negative and i wasnt in that class |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Oh yeah, well...I....Didn't pay attention...Shut up! *Grumble* People 'round here never just... |
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| Author: | Zeroth [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
insectoid @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:57 am wrote: Zeroth wrote: figuring out WHY a trig function returns that result. It gave me much higher marks than if I had listened to the teacher. I've bean wondering that myself....Too lazy to actually find out though. Uh, well, its been awhile, so I'll attempt a shot at it. But the fact that I remember, not having had to deal with the raw stuff of trig in... four years, definitely speaks to what I learned. Essentially, a trig function is a function of a triangle on the unit circle. A unit circle has a radius of 1, and its center is located at (0, 0) on a cartesian coordinate system. By drawing a line from the center to the edge of the circle, you know that it is of length 1. By forming an angle between that line, with a line that is along the coordinates of (0,0) to (1,0)(x, y coordinates) you achieve an arc. If you plot the numbers of the edge of the first line, that can go to any arbritary point on the circle, and moving the line continuously around the circle, you get a sine wave from the y coordinate. It goes up, and down, predictably. Multiples of an angle results in the same point on the circle, every single time. Sine waves typically start at a value of 1, then go to -1. Cosine waves are the waves formed from the x values, starting at 0, and going to 1, and -1. It was discovered that the values for the cosine wave and the sine waves corresponded always to the angle, and to each other. (Why do you think Sin^2+Cos^2=1?) Fundamentally, sine, and cosine, are just functions that take a degree(or radians), and output part of the coordinate set for the line. Moving from this set of observations, they discovered the pythagorean formula, quite familiar to all of us: a^2+b^2=c^2. The tan function is based off of the study of tangent lines; lines that intersect a circle only at one point, and one point exactly. It was discovered that cos O/sin O equals the length of the tangent line between its intersection of the circle, and the other end of the intersection if you extend the arm outwards.  This picture clarifies the matter better than I could describe it.
Of course, I kept it simple, and theres a lot more implications from this, in that there are several important trigonometric proofs in that unit circle. That help? |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Sounds complicated; I was right in being lazy . Thanks, I now know roughly how it works. Is there a mathematical equation that sine/cosine follows? |
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| Author: | Zeroth [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Well, sine and cosine are simply the x,y coordinates of a point on the unit circle. If you know the hypotenuse... and the angle, then you find the x, y coordinates. I'm leaving that as an exercise for the reader. |
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| Author: | [Gandalf] [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
I haven't read a few of the replies above, but... formulas, you mean like sin = opposite / hypotenuse and cos = adjacent / hypotenuse? I think you already know that, judging by your curiosity, but then what do you mean by "mathematical formulas"? It depends on the context of your problem. |
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| Author: | McKenzie [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
jeffgreco13 @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:56 pm wrote: i personally think this topic is ridiculous... if ur CS exam was easy then just shut up and take the mark...
Are you serious??? Do you not see the deeper issues here? Let me spell it out. Across North America enrollment in CS at Universities has dropped to 50% of it's 2001 mark. Although many factors affect that, quality of high school programs is one of them. Reality Check cares about more than just himself and the easy 100% he received. He would love to see a program that pushes students and forces them to think. The problem with the exam is not that some of the answers are a little short sighted. The problem is that students don't need to know how to program to get a very good mark. The vast majority of the questions look for surface level knowledge. The format was chosen for ease of marking not to accurately measure skill. Reality Check is not saying "I wish my lazy classmates got burned", he is saying "we need standards so I know that my 95% actually means something." I assume Reality Check knows what he is doing, but what about his classmate Joe Blo. Joe got an 87% in CS and has decided to major in CS at University because 87% is his highest mark. So he goes off to University and learns that knowing file extensions doesn't exactly translate into programming knowledge. This issue is much bigger than you, step back and look at it before you finalize your opinion. |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Well, thank you McKenzie, I knew there was something wrong with me getting a 96% and slacking my way through watching weird Al... I was asking exactly what the calculator does when you press the sine/cosine/tan button. Does it follow a pre-defined math equation that could be input manually, but is a pain in the but so they put in a button for it? Just out of curiousity again, how does a calculator calculate square roots? |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Quote: i personally think this topic is ridiculous... if ur CS exam was easy then just shut up and take the mark...
let's be honest, if you're interested enough in computers to hang out around this forum frequently then chances are you are QUITE good with them, am I right? So of course you'll get a good mark... But what about those people who want to be doctors and need that Tech credit? You think they want to be there? Hell no!! You learn more about computers and programming and structure on your own then you will in a class so that's why it seems so easy. The teacher has to maintain a standard with the examinations. Make it challenging so that it tests the extent of the students' knowledge but at the same time make it possible to pass. Just because you have 95% in the class doesn't mean the teacher or prof has to make the exam especially hard for you. I'm obviously not telling you that it's a bad call coming to rant about it, cause that's what happens here... but nothing's going to change in the high school system. Naturally, the student with the most interest in the subject will get that superb mark... To complain about it being too easy, is cocky and stupid... imagine how your classmate that may have JUST passed it must feel. This is completely off of what I was trying to say man. You talk about the people that need that tech credit. What about me? What if I want to get into a certain school that requires me to get a gr. 12 chem credit? Chem is not my subject lets say but when in the class, the teacher doesn't dumb it down. She/he teaches to the best of his abilities and teaches the students ACCORDING to the curriculum, regardless of student's situation. Why should tech class be dumbed down because people don't want to be there. As Mackenzie said, enrollment in CS has declined greatly over the last few years and I believe teaching and no real curriculum is to blame. And what about some of the students in my class that actually WANT to do programming? What if they really love it? Not everyone can go out and learn on his own and furthermore, some may not decide to go self taught until an actual foundation has been set (which our school system doesn't do for CS). So my friend might love CS and not be aware that the way he is learning it is WRONG. He'll go through his HS years learning it the way he's been taught and then take his 90% in the class and tackle Waterloo. What do you think happens to that kid? Yea he COULD succeed through hard work but it'll certainly be a more of a struggle than someone that had the benefit of a proper CS education in HS. However, chances are he'll be overwhelmed with what CS entails and of course a lack of the true concepts of proper programming won't help him either. Chances are he'll drop out rather quickly. I actually have a friend in this situation. He's getting a 92% in our CS class this year and he loves programming. He's decent I guess but programs according to the way he's been taught. Furthermore he isn't too aware of what CS at waterloo will entail (lots and lots of Math). Also, I see no reason why my friend here or anyone in the class could not be getting the SAME mark they are now learning it the proper way. Hell, it might spark an even bigger interest in the subject and motivate them to do even better. I don't see how I was being cocky at all in my posts. |
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| Author: | Clayton [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
This is how a calculator calculates sqrt(x). |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Thanks Clayton, helped me a lot. (Extremely heavy sarcasm!) Now AFTER you push the button, how does it actually do the calculation? |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Just google it insectoid, I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Reality Check @ Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:56 am wrote: Not everyone can go out and learn on his own
Why not? What makes you or I so special? |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Let me rephrase it. Everyone CAN learn on his own but not everyone will until a certain interest has been attained. I'm saying that I and a few others really loved programming from the beginning so therefore we took the initiative to go learn at home. However, Joe doesn't know too much about programming and he only knows what the school teaches him. If taught properly, Joe might take an interest as well and go self taught like I did. I'm saying not everyone gets that interest for programming right away and sometimes a solid foundation needs to be set before some people get that interest and go self taught. Unfortunately our school system provides no such foundation which of course will result in less interested people. |
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| Author: | jeffgreco13 [ Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
oh trust me I really understand where you guys are coming from with the poor quality of courses... Listen to my situation... grade 10 CS class we learned Turing I got 80% in it because I chose to write my programs under my format, that I taught myself and picked up around here. I sign up for grade 11 and 12 CS the next year which was supposed to be Java. Sure enough they cancelled them because there wasn't enough students enrolled and I guess it wasn't considered important enough. What I'm saying is by the time grade 11 and 12 roll around (even grade 10) if the student in question is certain that he or she wants to get involved with computers as a career then they ARE going to be one of those mediocre students, unless they really bust their asses and get that 80+. Unfortunately, by the time you are in grade 11 your skill set and interest already define the career path you'll take for AT LEAST the first year of post-secondary. The problem isn't in our high schools, it's even earlier. You want to see harder CS classes that really challenge, students need to be introduced to computers and the science of them at a younger age. They need to be taught that there's so much more use for them other than internet games and chat rooms. I have a feeling that in the near future you can count on an increase in CS students, with how technological we are the curriculum will catch up and realize how important these courses actually are. Getting all pissed off at the teacher tho isn't fair or right because it's high school and high school courses need to be made possible for EVERYONE not just over achievers like ourselves. But since that was your grade 12 exam Reality Check, that means you are done with high school, never again will you have to worry about standardized courses. You'll be in university next year im guessing right? Well all that extra studying and learning you do on your own, you're just going to fit in. Your challenge awaits you. |
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| Author: | McKenzie [ Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Reality Check, you keep refering to problems in the "School System" and lack of standards. What, exactly, do you mean? (I'm not saying that you are wrong, I just want you to be more specific) The curriculum documents for ICS are vague but overall decent. They are vague to allow individual boards/schools/teachers to choose their own language and approach to teaching programming. I think there are a variety of valid implementations of the curriculum that can be developed. The problem with flexibility is that you can also make a mess of it. For example one of the requirements of ICS4M is: Quote: SPV.03 ? implement advanced data structures and algorithms;
Someone might consider placing a bunch of numbers in an ArrayList then finding the largest one to be good enough to solve this requirement. I think that satisfies the "letter of the law" but clearly not the spirit of it. What I see as the biggest problem in our school system is the ministry makes these documents, then simply posts them and assumes everyone can implement them correctly. There needs to be training in place for the teachers who lack the time or ability to construct their courses correctly. |
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| Author: | jeffgreco13 [ Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
McKenzie great call on that!! I almost forgot, something we can all agree on that some of the teachers appointed to instruct these classes are nothing more than an english or math major who's learning the language a day before the students. That pisses me off BIG TIME when they offer a course taught by a teacher who's knowledge ends up being surpassed half way thru the semester. So what can you do? Take it upon urself. No matter how selfish it is you have to worry about #1 before others coming up. Even tho ur a high school senior, chances are your opinion is "greatly appreciated" but wont really do much. |
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| Author: | btiffin [ Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Clayton @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:59 pm wrote: This is how a calculator calculates sqrt(x).
Sorry; but a quick glance at the computational identity on that one reminded me of this lamer... What is the integral of one over mower d-mower? LawN mower. |
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| Author: | Clayton [ Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
insectoid @ Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:28 pm wrote: Thanks Clayton, helped me a lot. (Extremely heavy sarcasm!) Now AFTER you push the button, how does it actually do the calculation?
Offtopic: Let me explain then: In that article, they give the identity sqrt(x) = 10^((log x)/2). Now, log(x) is a logarithm. Logarithms are basically the opposite of exponents, in that if you feed a logarithmic function (log(x) in this case), it will give you the exponent on 10 (you can have different bases, but that's a different kettle of fish) that will give you that number. This means that log 10 = 1 because 10^1 = 10, or log 100 = 2 because 10^2 = 100. There is a logarithmic function in your calculator that it will use to compute log(x), and I really don't care to explain that. If you're interested, check out Wikipedia on it
As a side note, the identity can be generalized to: sqrt(x) = a^((log_a (x)/2) |
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| Author: | Richard Knop [ Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Some questions are really lame 
Here most of the tests and exams we have had so far were aimed at math (limits, derivations, integrals, differencial euqations and such - pretty tough - around 40% of people have already been kiced out or are fairly close to it), physics (theory of relativity - not general, the other one, dynamic movements etc...) and electrotechnics. Then we had few exams from C (mostly you got practical problems - and had to solve them in a time limit - you had to suggest an algorhitm, explain how it works plus mention its possible limitations, draw a graph and finally write it down and compile). |
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| Author: | Tony [ Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Though you are talking about your first year University, right? There's a often a big jump between the two. And I hear 40% dropout (dropout being "no longer pursuing") is pretty common figure for demanding CS programs. |
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| Author: | michaelp [ Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
This kind of reminds of how (not necessarily) a person who is self-taught in program for 2 years can usually walk circles around a person who has been taking a CS/Programming course for 2 years. I'm guessing it's like that because the person who is self-taught is probably a bit more dedicated than the person who has been going to a CS course or class. |
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| Author: | Tony [ Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
That would probably be true for any subject. (At least at the high school level). School is an artificial motivation, where learning is driven by "marks" instead of... well learning. Picking up any (technical) textbook with personal motivation will likely result in better outcome. |
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| Author: | gitoxa [ Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Artificial is all that'll keep my mind on it, sadly. Gogo gnat-like attention span. |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Quote: This kind of reminds of how (not necessarily) a person who is self-taught in program for 2 years can usually walk circles around a person who has been taking a CS/Programming course for 2 years.
I'm guessing it's like that because the person who is self-taught is probably a bit more dedicated than the person who has been going to a CS course or class. Yea I think most of it has to do with dedication. The self-taught person obviously loves or at least likes the subject enough to go out and teach himself and when presented with harder thinks in higher levels, the self-taught person is more likely to have the motivation to work hard and learn the harder stuff. However, this doesn't change the fact that high school CS programs in general need to get a major face lift. I mean, I personally think I'd still be teaching myself at home regardless of school difficulty when it comes to programming but I'd at least like to have a relatively good school program. |
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| Author: | Zeroth [ Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
There are things, of course, that the university level student learns that the self-taught one won't, typically. I've met a few self-taught programmers, whom obviously love what they're doing... but they have NO clue how to design algorithms, and even, be able to express which course is faster or slower, and why. They can't tell me that a bubble sort is obviously slower than a quicksort... they've never even heard the terms. Don't knock education, just poor education. |
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| Author: | Reality Check [ Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Just to give you guys an idea how easy my gr. 12 exam is...standards need to be set! |
Oh of course I'm not knocking poor education. As you can clearly see, I was knocking the fact that we HAVE poor education. Wouldn't it be great if we could have a decent school system to teach us all about algorithms and their times? I will admit I haven't exactly worked a lot with designing algorithms but I have looked up a lot of the sorting and searching algorithms along with their times. I will admit I don't exactly get all of them perfectly but I'll learn with time. |
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