Computer Science Canada

CS, Is it possible?
Author:  Nefel [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  CS, Is it possible?
I'm really hoping to go into CS but I don't know if I'll be able to with my grades, how competitive is CS in waterloo/UFT? My projected marks are

85 Computer Enginnering
92 Computer Sci.
87 Advance functions(repeated)
80 Tech
73 Calculus
76 English
75 Physics(Ryerson requries)

Average (UFT / waterloo): 82.1
Average (Ryerson): 81.3
Applying to Ryerson UFT and waterloo

Also I'm not very strong in math but I understand the concepts and know what i'm doing ,just my teacher doesn't give any part marks =/ your either right or wrong
Author:  knowthyself [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
If you recognize that you are not very strong in math, then CS may not be the right choice for you. On the other hand, if you recognize that you are not very strong in math, then that is the first step toward *becoming* stronger in math. Figure out where your weaknesses are and focus on them. If you really want something in life, you will likely have to work hard for it. But regardless of how tough your HS math teacher is, your University math professors will be harder.

Nefel @ Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:14 pm wrote:
I'm really hoping to go into CS but I don't know if I'll be able to with my grades, how competitive is CS in waterloo/UFT? My projected marks are

85 Computer Enginnering
92 Computer Sci.
87 Advance functions(repeated)
80 Tech
73 Calculus
76 English
75 Physics(Ryerson requries)

Average (UFT / waterloo): 82.1
Average (Ryerson): 81.3
Applying to Ryerson UFT and waterloo

Also I'm not very strong in math but I understand the concepts and know what i'm doing ,just my teacher doesn't give any part marks =/ your either right or wrong
Author:  rdrake [ Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
Nefel @ Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:14 pm wrote:
I'm really hoping to go into CS but I don't know if I'll be able to with my grades, how competitive is CS in waterloo/UFT?
From what I've heard, quite competitive.

Nefel @ Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:14 pm wrote:
My projected marks are

85 Computer Enginnering
92 Computer Sci.
87 Advance functions(repeated)
80 Tech
73 Calculus
76 English
75 Physics(Ryerson requries)
For the love of God bring up your English mark. I cannot begin to express how frustrating it is to read written answers from first year students.

Nefel @ Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:14 pm wrote:
Also I'm not very strong in math but I understand the concepts and know what i'm doing ,just my teacher doesn't give any part marks =/ your either right or wrong
I asked one of the calculus professors at Waterloo about that once. He said often those who did bad in high school calculus try harder in university than those who coasted by.

Either way, submit a decent AIF and you should have a fair chance.
Author:  jcollins1991 [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
rdrake @ Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:43 pm wrote:
For the love of God bring up your English mark. I cannot begin to express how frustrating it is to read written answers from first year students.


Why? English marks in highschool are more about reading bullshit Shakespeare and writing useless reflections on books, not about your ability to write comprehensible answers (though that certainly is part of the mark). Getting math marks up would be more useful, and learning what types of things in math you like could be helpful in figuring out how to study in university.
Author:  mirhagk [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:CS, Is it possible?
I actually have the same sort of question, I mean most of my marks (except english, because I don't care about shakespeare or poetry) are mid 80%'s and my computer science mark is in the 90%'s.

I really want to get into university, and I'm kinda scared that my marks are too low.
Author:  Tony [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
jcollins1991 @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:34 am wrote:
Why?

Because your English mark is important for getting admission into University programs.
Author:  jcollins1991 [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
Tony @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:30 pm wrote:
jcollins1991 @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:34 am wrote:
Why?

Because your English mark is important for getting admission into University programs.


If someone has a good reason to have a lower mark in English then no reasonable university would reject them based solely on that mark. UW math is more concerned about someones marks and their interest in math than their English mark, if someone isn't good enough at writing to pass the ELPE (English Language Proficiency Exam) then UW will make them take an equivalent English course to help them improve.

edit: That's not to say you should sacrifice time and effort in English to improve in math courses, but if you have a choice to get better in either subject then math would be your best choice.
Author:  Tony [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
jcollins1991 @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:46 pm wrote:

edit: That's not to say you should sacrifice time and effort in English to improve in math courses, but if you have a choice to get better in either subject then math would be your best choice.

I would argue the opposite. I know of someone being rejected from admission into CS solely based on the English mark.

Special considerations might be taken if "good reasons" for a low mark were to be documented and submitted, but that is all very subjective.
Author:  jcollins1991 [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
Tony @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:59 pm wrote:
I would argue the opposite. I know of someone being rejected from admission into CS solely based on the English mark.

Special considerations might be taken if "good reasons" for a low mark were to be documented and submitted, but that is all very subjective.


I know it's all subjective, and for any extra considerations to be made you need a great deal of documentation, and it all changes from university to university. But considering the fact that he's expecting a low 70's mark in calc and a mid 70's in English, calc seems like a better choice If UW sees someone with a repeated Advanced Functions course I think they'll be more interested in that person improving their math skills than seeing them get a good grade in English.
Author:  Tony [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:CS, Is it possible?
Looking at this particular set of marks, I think you're right. I'm of an opinion that given the same average among all the classes, those with less deviation are better -- bring up the lowest grade, which in this case happens to be Calc (in typical cases it's English instead).
Author:  knowthyself [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
English is very important because: A) You learn to communicate effectively. B) You learn creative and critical thinking skills. Both of these are of utmost importance in the real world (AND the academic world), but neither are learned in math class. Math is 99% memorization, whereas in English you need to produce new ideas.
Author:  mono-1-rulz [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:CS, Is it possible?
I am a first year at Wloo now, and i know a friend who got in with a mere 72 in english but his other marks were high though so that might have played a part. As for being strong in math, I have been looking at the course requirements for a CS graduate and there isn't much higher level math after the second year but you would have to be good at picking up mathematical concepts cuz it helps you understand better. Having said that, you might wanna concentrate more on Calc cuz first year Calc carries on from highschool basically and builds on it. Other than that, fill out the AIF and make yourself look good. Good luck! Very Happy
Author:  mono-1-rulz [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
knowthyself @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:07 pm wrote:
Math is 99% memorization.

I hope you are kidding lol.
Author:  rdrake [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
knowthyself @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:07 pm wrote:
English is very important because: A) You learn to communicate effectively. B) You learn creative and critical thinking skills. Both of these are of utmost importance in the real world (AND the academic world)
QFT.

knowthyself @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:07 pm wrote:
Math is 99% memorization.
False.

One of the most essential skills any academic can have is strong communication skills. You must present work both in written and oral forms.
Author:  knowthyself [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
I completely agree. You absolutely must have strong communication skills. Are you saying that those skills are developed *in* math courses, or *for* math courses (plus others of course)? I would argue that they are typically not developed *in* math courses.

I exaggerate the 99% part to draw attention to the point. And I'll probably be lynched here, because saying this here is tantamount to going to a church and shouting that god doesn't exist... On an English assignment, you typically have to come up with a new idea. On a math assignment you have to remember identities, formulas and so on, iteratively go through them in your head to figure out which one fits the problem, then go through the steps to solve for the solution. When you have a question in English like, 'write an essay about how you feel about such and such', you will temporarily go through the same mental process -- scan your memory for when you considered that type of question before, and try to remember what your answer was. And when you can't find it, because its a new question, you have to create a new idea. A dumb computer can solve math problems, but a computer can't (as far as I know) write an original essay about Hamlet (I'm half-expecting to be corrected here Wink. So I'm arguing that English requires creativity, creativity equates to greater intelligence (as opposed to pulling something out of memory like a computer), therefore English is very valuable.

That being say too, I'm not saying that math isn't! I'm in CS myself for the record, and I love math - I think it's exciting and interesting. I just find that it gets a little old hearing math- and tech-heads going on complaining about English and saying that it's useless and using that as their excuse for their own poor performance in it.

rdrake @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:28 pm wrote:
knowthyself @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:07 pm wrote:
English is very important because: A) You learn to communicate effectively. B) You learn creative and critical thinking skills. Both of these are of utmost importance in the real world (AND the academic world)
QFT.

knowthyself @ Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:07 pm wrote:
Math is 99% memorization.
False.

One of the most essential skills any academic can have is strong communication skills. You must present work both in written and oral forms.
Author:  bbi5291 [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
On the contrary, it seems to me that most math/CS people can be easily convinced that strong communication skills are an asset both in the academic setting of university and in the workplace. On one hand, insofar as English classes develop the skills of critical thinking, composing ideas, and expressing ideas clearly, they are far from useless. On the other hand, grading students on their ability to explore the theme of life in small town Ontario in the novel Fifth Business puts some students hoping to pursue math and CS programs at university at a disadvantage that I don't feel they deserve.

Mandatory courses are mandatory because they are intended to develop skills that will be indispensable and broadly applicable, such as the ability to communicate well. Elective courses exist to promote well-roundedness and to encourage students to explore subject areas they find interesting. I would be happy to see mandatory English courses concentrating on critical thinking and effective communication, with all that other stuff --- like exploring themes in literature --- moved to an elective English course.

Only somewhat relevant tangent: There's a stereotype that the better a student is at math, the less likely he or she is to be a good communicator. But of Canada's high school students, I've met many of the best in math, CS, physics, and chemistry. In essentially all cases the opposite has proven true; they were in fact very good at expressing themselves in speech and in writing.
Author:  RandomLetters [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:CS, Is it possible?
English as a topic of study is important. English as a high school course, however, is (relatively) useless.

One of the major problems of students not excelling in English courses is because it takes arguably the most work, for no more reward than any other course. Yes, communication and expressing ideas is nearly as important as mathematics and logic, but high school courses do little to promote higher level thinking. I think we can all agree that recording our "feelings" and what "we think" about each article is no better than repeating math problems for practice, but without the benefit of obvious rights and wrongs. This means that often, after spending much time composing their idea, students find themselves rewarded with a 70 because they failed to "hit the target".

Furthermore, the notion that many engineers and other technical specialists having poor communication skills is completely unrelated to high school level English. Usually what we see is not the lack of creative ideas or self expression, but rather they are just bad at English, whether they are still relatively new to Canada and the language, or because they were not given the education level now required. It does not take long to become fluent in a language, but to master it, and wield it with eloquence takes experience, something that high schools fail to provide regardless of student success. People who are good at communicating to not study obscure young-adult novel themes, but rather read many novels, and slowly absorb the ideas, prose, and style of many writers, eventually forming their own, personal ideas.

High schools need to encourage students to seek out knowledge for themselves, and it will fail at this by having courses that cause bitterness between students and teachers and provide few tangible rewards for so much effort.
Author:  knowthyself [ Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
Well put!
Author:  2goto1 [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:CS, Is it possible?
Articulating well is an important skill, as is listening well. Someone with higher English marks is more likely to articulate and listen well. Articulating well is what forms the first impression that you make when you apply to university. It also sets first impressions with everyone that you communicate with, whether verbally or written.

I believe that one of the most important aspects of English that is not taught in high school, is logic. Not mathematical logic, but English language logic. Language logic teaches you how to analyze arguments - how to identify the premises presented, and how to identify which premises and conclusions are faulty, and which are valid. It is a worthwhile subject to study because you learn how to improve your own critical thinking skills, as well as learn to formulate arguments that are less fallacious. Those skills are extremely valuable in professional and personal situations.
Author:  bbi5291 [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CS, Is it possible?
Usually, students who have low English marks have low English marks because they struggle to express themselves clearly, or, like you said, understand the logic, or something like that. But this generally results in marks in the failing to 75~80ish range. Writing clear and well-developed arguments, thinking critically, analyzing logic --- you can be pretty good at all these things and still only get around 75-80, which is really not good enough if you want to be a very competitive applicant; the remaining 20-25% can easily be lost due to not being very good at writing poetry, creating collages, or picking up on symbolism in literary analysis. These skills aren't unimportant, but they're also not nearly as important as the essential skills we often like to think that English courses help develop, so they shouldn't be emphasized in mandatory English courses.

(And I wish that high school English classes actually did discuss logic. Some schools have Theory of Knowledge classes or whatever they want to call them for this purpose. It would certainly be nice if people learned enough logic not to fall for all the fallacies they hear on TV and from politicians; slippery slope, straw man, whatever.)
Author:  2goto1 [ Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:CS, Is it possible?
Precisely, English articulation for university applications is needed to demonstrate technical proficiency of the language. Sometime the technicals have to be learned through tons of memorization and repeated application of subject matter.

I agree about the high school point as well. Critical thinking is a valuable all around life skill. Some critical thinking is taught in high school, but not much. I think that one common critical thinking theme taught in high school is "be skeptical of what you see and hear", which is itself useful in order to reduce the number of naive high school grads, but which doesn't give students basic tools to analyze the language of the world around them. I guess there's only limited learning time in high school, so priorities weigh in on curriculum I suppose.

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