Computer Science Canada :: View topic - 3D programmer

Our Proposal

If you must put together a video game course/program, please place it after the students have finished their core education. Watering down their base education is a detriment to the students¿ future, and is not what we are looking for as a prospective employer.

Our industry is in a state of permanent flux: our technologies are not stable, and our practices are evolving. Five years from now, ten years from now, we will still be making games. What I can¿t tell you is how we will make them, what the team structure will be, or what our processes will look like.

In this context, we must prepare for the future by hiring people with solid generalist educations. Our software developers must be prepared to grow with the new challenges, they must be able to rapidly adopt new technologies, and they must be constantly evaluating their processes. If we at Electronic Arts, the largest and most successful company in the industry, are struggling to prepare our employees for the future, it is difficult to imagine that a narrowly focused education will prepare students adequately to become the leaders of our industry.

Team work, social skills, and a base set of skills is what will ensure success. Game builders of the future are not the game builders of today. Teach your students one skill, and they will be obsolete 5-10 years from now.
I implore you: rather than teaching our rapidly obsolescing processes, focus on the base underlying (hard) skills that will prepare your students for the future. Don¿t be seduced by the flash, teach the hard stuff, and your students will reap the benefits 10-30 years from now, wherever they may be.

Author:	snake02 [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:18 am ]
Post subject:	3D programmer - few questions
Good afternoon, i'm 20, and i wish to start studies to end up with a 3D programmer certificate, to later apply for a gaming studio. Where in canada (montreal preferably) will i be able to follow such courses? If no institutions offer that, i will take intensive C++ courses. But again, is there any institution offering C++ courses? I speak english and french, so whatever the language is, i won't have any problem. Thanks

Author:	Aziz [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:55 am ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
C++ isn't the only thing you need. You're looking at at least a few years of full time studies in an institude. Not sure of any schools near Montreal, but you should do a search for "canadian computer science schools". Also, Tony's blog has some articles on school reviews. University of Waterloo (in Waterloo, of course) is one of the biggest CS schools in Canada.

Author:	Bobrobyn [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:57 am ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
The best way to become a 3D programmer is probably to get a double major in math (or even physics) and computer science I took a tour of Silicon Knights this past year. It seems to me that they expect a degree in Computer Science, or something similiar, along with interests outside of compsci. I'd say your best bet is to get a compsci degree with a minor in something you enjoy. I don't really know anything about "certificates", so I can't help you there. I do know that colleges that offer programming usually teach you how to use the tools of the day, while at university they usually teach you enough that you could design the tools yourself -- or at the very least, be tool independant (be able to learn anything -- "It's just another language.").

Author:	Aziz [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:22 am ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
Some of my college professors actually try to teach us in that way - language independent. It's just the college program is so f'ed up that no one has learned anything (they all teach different crap). I guess that's why the program is being redesigned. Though I doubt it will be any better after, it's still mostly the same profs, and all teach different things, most teach old stuff. Heh.

Author:	snake02 [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 3D programmer - few questions
Hello again, thank you for the quick replies. Are there any "gaming institute" out there? I mean instead of going to university for a BSc in GS, a gaming institute would be offering me exactly what i should expect in the future. Just like Games Academy in Germany: http://www.games-academy.de/

Author:	Aziz [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
I think there's one in BC, and one in Toronto. Game development (if your wanting to program) needs CS though.

Author:	Tony [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
"Game Institutes" are like colleges specializing in hands-on game dev stuff. You are not going to get a degree. Not sure how much theory you will learn. Though you'll get a lot of practice implementing relevant concepts. I'm not sure how receptive the industry is of such education. It seems like most higher-end positions require an actual degree. Carleton University offers a CS degree with a minor in Game Development. Though I'm not sure what you mean by "3D programming"... is it 3D physics? 3D graphics?

Author:	Vermette [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
Algoma University offers a special "Master of Science (Computer Games Technology)" program on their campus in cooperation with the University of Albertay-Dundee in Scotland. I think you need to be coming out of a Bachelor's CS program to apply. http://mastersingaming.com/ For full-fledged game schools, there's DigiPen in BC (A Nintendo feeder school I believe), and Full Sail down in Florida. Those two come immediately to mind when you say "game school", and from my understanding they are both very expensive, intensive college-style schools that focus on offering a smattering of some CS concepts and lots of focus on current tools and Art design to produce programmers that are marketable as entry-level codemonkeys and artists in the industry. Useful if you're certain you want to be involved in making games for the rest of your life, but any change in careers means your skillset is limited. I should mention that at my school (University of Windsor) a new specialization in Game Development is being implemented as a value-added within the Honours Bachelor CS stream. you can find some info here: http://www.cs.uwindsor.ca/download/1778/Gaming.pdf edit: In support of what Tony says above, if you're serious about a career in game development you may want to consider a full University CS education. This is a portion of a letter from EA Games (the largest game studio in the world as I am sure you know) that a member of our cirriculum committee (disclosure: my M.Sc supervisor) posted to our forum back in 2005: EA Games wrote: Our Proposal If you must put together a video game course/program, please place it after the students have finished their core education. Watering down their base education is a detriment to the students¿ future, and is not what we are looking for as a prospective employer. Our industry is in a state of permanent flux: our technologies are not stable, and our practices are evolving. Five years from now, ten years from now, we will still be making games. What I can¿t tell you is how we will make them, what the team structure will be, or what our processes will look like. In this context, we must prepare for the future by hiring people with solid generalist educations. Our software developers must be prepared to grow with the new challenges, they must be able to rapidly adopt new technologies, and they must be constantly evaluating their processes. If we at Electronic Arts, the largest and most successful company in the industry, are struggling to prepare our employees for the future, it is difficult to imagine that a narrowly focused education will prepare students adequately to become the leaders of our industry. Team work, social skills, and a base set of skills is what will ensure success. Game builders of the future are not the game builders of today. Teach your students one skill, and they will be obsolete 5-10 years from now. I implore you: rather than teaching our rapidly obsolescing processes, focus on the base underlying (hard) skills that will prepare your students for the future. Don¿t be seduced by the flash, teach the hard stuff, and your students will reap the benefits 10-30 years from now, wherever they may be. As far as I know the advice in this letter was taken to heart and the program built is simply a flavour of the Core Honours program here.

Author:	jeffgreco13 [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3D programmer - few questions
I'm from Sault Ste Marie, where Algoma University is and this program is a pretty solid one for graduate students. You need a degree in CS and pretty good marks to get in but its quite respectable.

Author:	apomb [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
re Jeff: its one of the only Masters in Gaming degrees in North America if i remember correctly

Author:	snake02 [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
Hello again, thanks once again for the replies. I'll therefore apply for a BSc in CS. Now i please wish to know where to apply. Many universities offer them, so which to select?

Author:	Tony [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
The selection is an intersection between programs offered, you preferences for a university, your preference for the location of the university, and your ability to get accepted into the program.

Author:	snake02 [ Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3D programmer - few questions
Montreal is the easiest for me, but i do not mind going a bit further.

Author:	Aziz [ Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:54 am ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
Waterloo is viewed as the best Computer school in Canada afaik, but if you're determined you can go as far as you want. Computer Science isn't like medical science - you can learn it on your own. That's why I'm at the top of my class (and excel beyond) in my college course, when 80% of my class is struggling with basic concepts. It's because I've tought myself (with help of tutorials and Compsci.ca, of course) Also, nobody really replied to Vermette, but that's a great post. Vermette, I'd like to talk with you about your experience at Windsor if you don't mind ... I'd like it if you met me in irc or PM'd me. Thanks

Author:	snake02 [ Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3D programmer - few questions
Before going for a 4-year BSc in CS, i wish to take intensive C++ courses. Now where in canada can i find such study centers that focus on coding/programming courses, in my case being C++? In other words, not universities but specialized institutions that offer coding courses. Note that it doesn't matter what language the course is given in, i speak english and french perfectly. Thank again.

Author:	DemonWasp [ Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:	RE:3D programmer - few questions
Depending on what level you're at, you need to look to different institutions. Super-basic: You may be able to find something programming-oriented in "Continuing Education" centers. At this level you're better off just learning from tutorials on the Intertubes, and writing example programs for your own sake. Less basic: You're probably looking at taking a College-level course or two. At this level, you can still learn the information on your own relatively easily. Moderate: (ie you can code C++ just fine, you're starting to look into the more complex optimisations); at this level you're definitely going to want University-level courses. UWaterloo is a great university for Computer Science (somewhere near the level of MIT). Advanced: There is no substitute for real-world experience. Incidentally, if you already know another language than C++ (cough Java, Python, etc) then you may want to start learning about 3d concepts in that language without getting into the complexities of C++. In the games industry you'll probably need to use C++, but 3d programming concepts can be difficult enough without adding the complication of a new language, particularly one so difficult as C++.

Author:	Reality Check [ Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 3D programmer - few questions
What are your current skills with programming? And aziz while programming is something you can teach yourself (ie. efficient ways of completing a task, algorithms, syntax) it isn't something everyone can be good at. You need a very strong background in math and to a lesser degree physics. To do well in the gaming industry as a programmer I'd assume you need a strong enough knowledge of math. In fact, I'm pretty certain that many companies regard Math higher than CS when looking for programming positions. Of course being strong at logic is a big plus too but if you're really strong at math and physics I'd think it's safe to assume your logic skills are pretty good. Regarding your questions, I think the smartest thing one can do to get the kind of job you are looking for is getting that CS degree. It's pretty hard to get in without it. That's my suggestion. Find a school around you that offers a CS bachelors and if you really like the subject, do a lot of off school activities on your own time. Once you finish that four years there are many options. You could dive straight in and go for a job in the industry (which would be much higher with your CS degree) or you could get some more education. Maybe consider graduate school for something like math? Once your four years is up there really is no need to get your CS masters but it'd help a lot in terms of credibility if you go and do more math. That being said many actually opt to go for a college experience in those game design schools once the four years is up. I can see how that'd be somewhat beneficial but I wouldn't suggest that personally. But just remember, you have to really love math to like the job.