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New MSN For Mac Update

Author:	Amailer [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:50 am ]
Post subject:	New MSN For Mac Update
Download it Though look how far back MSN for Mac is (in its features and etc) then MSN Messanger (for windows ).

Author:	Notoroge [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:33 am ]
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Actually, although it's really lacking in features. It just looks so much cooler. But, in reality, I like the fact that it lacks all those useless and cluttering features, while still looking and performing better. But then again, it's Mac software; even though it's written by Microsoft. Update: At first I thought you were talking about something to do with MSN and Media Access Control. i.e: MAC not Mac.

Author:	wtd [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New MSN For MAC Update
Amailer wrote: Though look how far back MSN for mac is (in its features and etc) then MSN Messanger (for windows ). Yeah, I'm sure Microsoft wouldn't do something like cripple the Mac OS X MSN messenger client to give Windows some small advantage. Oh, and if you're on a Mac and aren't using Adium, you're insane.

Author:	md [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:32 pm ]
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Gaim is good... although it takes a bit of work to get it installed on a mac

Author:	wtd [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:36 pm ]
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Adium uses the Gaim networking libraries, but a nice, highly customizable Cocoa interface.

Author:	[Gandalf] [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:44 pm ]
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Aaaa! After looking at that comparison table, I can tell how much better the mac version is. "Send/Recieve Nudges"? I can't imagine how big a waste of time that must be. The older versions of msn were seemingly much more usable than the new ones.

Author:	Notoroge [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:25 pm ]
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[Gandalf] wrote: Aaaa! After looking at that comparison table, I can tell how much better the mac version is. "Send/Recieve Nudges"? I can't imagine how big a waste of time that must be. The older versions of msn were seemingly much more usable than the new ones.

Author:	rizzix [ Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:12 am ]
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[Gandalf] wrote: "Send/Recieve Nudges"? I can't imagine how big a waste of time that must be. You're kindding right? That feature pwns... You can irritate those pests as much as u want untill they block you!! it rocks! btw swtich to msn7 (on windows) it has all these useless feature, and probably more..

Author:	Tony [ Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:49 am ]
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rizzix wrote: You can irritate those pests as much as u want untill they block you!! Or figure out how to turn this "feature" off.. whatever comes first

Author:	lyam_kaskade [ Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:52 am ]
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Quote: Integration with Microsoft Office eh? what's this? And it's only on the Mac version...

Author:	Notoroge [ Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:59 pm ]
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Well, Mac has it's own Microsoft Office. And apperantly their MSN version can integrate with it. That pretty much sums it up.

Author:	[Gandalf] [ Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:24 pm ]
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Indeed, I was wondering that too. It has integration with the Mac MS Office, but not on Windows? Why would they do that, if on purpose..?

Author:	wtd [ Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:06 pm ]
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[Gandalf] wrote: Indeed, I was wondering that too. It has integration with the Mac MS Office, but not on Windows? Why would they do that, if on purpose..? Because Microsoft's Mac Business Unit is better at writing Mac software than the rest of the company is at writing Windows software?

Author:	rizzix [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:44 am ]
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Yep. Also.. Microsoft's Office for mac is 100x better than that for windows. It has it's own set of unique features that that are absent in the windows' version. Just look it up: http://mactopia.com

Author:	bugzpodder [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:48 pm ]
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give ms some credit... linux is open source and is developed by millions of developers... ms doesnt have that many employees.

Author:	Tony [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:17 pm ]
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I thought the argument here was about Microsoft writing better software for Macs than they do for their own platform.. Where did linux come from?

Author:	bugzpodder [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:56 pm ]
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Author:	wtd [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:34 pm ]
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bugzpodder wrote: give ms some credit... linux is open source and is developed by millions of developers... ms doesnt have that many employees. That's an interesting twist on the usual "open source can't possibly compete with Microsoft's thousands of highly-trained, full-time professionals."

Author:	bugzpodder [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:45 pm ]
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microsoft has a marketing department, which does some pretty crazy things like exploiting consumer needs to promote their software (have you guys seen the microsoft office ads in toronto's subway )

Author:	Notoroge [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:56 pm ]
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Dude, I'unno, I use Windows and haven't had any issues with it. I've said this many times before, but I'll repeat myself, it all depends on how you use your OS that will determine the experience. Sure, if Windows one day releases something that is entirely unworkable with, then there'll be room for criticism. Don't get me wrong, Microsoft does a lot of really stupid things, but you cannot possibly tell me the Linux community doesn't have its stupidities as well; same goes for Mac. People just like to pick on Microsoft because it's a convenient scapegoat. People's experience in Linux can be complete hell; just like I can make your Windows experience make you want to off yourself. And don't give me that "Well, if you'd RTFM before installing Linux, you wouldn't have any issues.". People don't have to RTFM before installing Windows, do they? Sorry, I kinda started venting at the end there. Just saying, don't judge lest ye' be judged. Update: I didn't mean the installation processes, I meant after starting to use the Operating System. I'm quite aware that the installation process has pretty much leveled out between the OSs in terms of usability.

Author:	wtd [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:03 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: People just like to pick on Microsoft because it's a convenient scapegoat. Or, you know... maybe because they've gone out of their way to put people actually working on good technology out of business, so they won't have to honestly compete.

Author:	Notoroge [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:25 pm ]
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Tell me of some technology that Microsoft owns that there isn't one Open Source alternative for. Just one. Please. I beg you. Find me just one. And even so, if Microsoft does that; you have to realize, it's a business. And business are out to put each other out of business in order to own the most market-share possible. They're not your friend. Neither is Red-Hat. They're not there because of their love for computers and technology, they're there because it's a business opportunity. Just like any other organization. So is Linux. It may have started as a hobby. But you don't see Linus walking around with no money in his pockets, do you? Business is business. And when it comes down to it, Microsoft's software isn't all that bad. People just like to say it is because they don't like the company personally, which is a really horrible way to rate software. "Hey, wtd, I don't like you because you stole my baby's lollipop. Therefore, your software must totally suck". Catch my drift? Update: For typos.

Author:	Hikaru79 [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:34 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: Tell me of some technology that Microsoft owns that there isn't one Open Source alternative for. Just one. Please. I beg you. Find me just one. Microsoft AntiSpyware?

Author:	Notoroge [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:35 pm ]
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Heh, cute.

Author:	wtd [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:00 am ]
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Notoroge wrote: And business are out to put each other out of business in order to own the most market-share possible. No. Businesses are out to make money. That does not mean putting one's competitors out of business. In the long run, competition is good for business, and for making money. Competition keeps a market fresh, and alive. It keeps consumers interested in that business. Lack of competition renders a market stable, and biologists, among others, have another word for stable systems... dead. Let's look at another computer company. Apple is profitable in a market that's not being terribly friendly to other computer manufacturers. How do they manage this? Well, iPod sales aside, they have very aggressively developed new, interesting software. They've kept the interest of their base, and gotten the attention of others.

Author:	Notoroge [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:25 am ]
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Quote: In the long run, competition is good for business, and for making money. Competition keeps a market fresh, and alive. It keeps consumers interested in that business. Yeah, but companies love stability. Especially when they're the ones that own it. I don't think biology applies in this field.

Author:	wtd [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:51 am ]
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Notoroge wrote: Quote: In the long run, competition is good for business, and for making money. Competition keeps a market fresh, and alive. It keeps consumers interested in that business. Yeah, but companies love stability. It's ironic that you should say that. Microsoft doesn't like stability, especially since they own it. Stability in this case is personified by Windows 2000. For a great many businesses, Windows 2000 is when Windows got to be "good enough", and they stopped looking at upgrades seriously, because Windows 2000 was (relatively) stable. So, what's the problem? Well, Microsoft desperately wants to sell new software to these companies, and yet, their prior success (regardless of how it was achieved) is preventing that. Stability is killing Microsoft, especially since they rely heavily on the lucrative site licensing contracts with large companies.

Author:	Notoroge [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:00 am ]
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Don't twist my words around. I said stability as in, their marketshare staying at %90. And not worrying about competition. Companies hate competition, because it involved actually investing money in R&D.

Author:	bugzpodder [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:49 am ]
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if you dont invest in R&D, then how are you gonna improve your software?

Author:	wtd [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:58 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: Don't twist my words around. I said stability as in, their marketshare staying at %90. And not worrying about competition. Of course Microsoft worries about competition. They worry about it incessantly, because once you're at the top, there's nowhere to go but down. They dislike stability because having a stable share of the market means you're not losing ground... but it also means you're not gaining. Notoroge wrote: Companies hate competition, because it involved actually investing money in R&D. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Smart companies invest heavily in research and development, and use the fruits of that R&D. Microsoft has the former down, but they're less good at the latter.

Author:	Notoroge [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:06 pm ]
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wtd wrote: Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Smart companies invest heavily in research and development, and use the fruits of that R&D. Yeah, because of competition, you have to innovate. If companies can avoid the hassle and still be at the top, they'd do it. wtd wrote: because once you're at the top, there's nowhere to go but down. Exactly. But then again, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained", right? So when you're at the top, it doesn't matter that you don't gain anything. Because there isn't anything left to gain. Anyways, what the hell does this have to do with Microsoft products? I was talking about the quality of Windows, not their marketing strategy. Windows XP is not as bad as people make it out to be. That was my original point.

Author:	bugzpodder [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:20 pm ]
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now i admit ms office is totally piece of junk here i just want to insert some custom page numbers in the footnotes as part of my workreport... and i cant figure out how to customize it

Author:	[Gandalf] [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:45 pm ]
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Isn't there some option, and it gives you a bunch of settings... On a totally irrelevant note, I finally found out that Win XP has a lock computer feature!

Author:	Tony [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:47 pm ]
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bugz - you can't but I think there's an option somewhere where you set first page's number (so they start from something other than 1). Afterwords you split the document into separate files and adjust each footnote's range. Its a paint keeping everything together.. I know

Author:	wtd [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:07 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: wtd wrote: Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Smart companies invest heavily in research and development, and use the fruits of that R&D. Yeah, because of competition, you have to innovate. If companies can avoid the hassle and still be at the top, they'd do it. But being at the top of a stagnant industry is worthless.

Author:	rizzix [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:43 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: Windows XP is not as bad as people make it out to be. That was my original point. who are you kidding.. it's soo delicate! The slightest thing could get it to crash!

Author:	bugzpodder [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:48 am ]
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XP rarely crashes for me for over two-three years period. until recently that is

Author:	Notoroge [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:34 pm ]
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wtd wrote: Notoroge wrote: wtd wrote: Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Smart companies invest heavily in research and development, and use the fruits of that R&D. Yeah, because of competition, you have to innovate. If companies can avoid the hassle and still be at the top, they'd do it. But being at the top of a stagnant industry is worthless. Not if it provides a steady flow of income. rizzix wrote: who are you kidding.. it's soo delicate! and bugzpodder wrote: XP rarely crashes for me for over two-three years period. until recently that is Not for me. Not once. Ever. Some apps crash. But that's the app. The actual Operating System has never, ever crashed on me. I do daily anti-virus scans with AVG, weekly spy-ware scans with Microsoft Anti-Spyware, I defrag the hard-drive every 15 days, and run Advanced System Optimizer's 'Registry Cleaner & Fixer' and 'Registry Defragger and Optimizer' also on a weekly basis. Always keep all programs up to date. Oh, and I set my router to discard all pings and enabled the hardware firewall it comes with. Along with a bunch of other stuff. But anyways, yeah, never had any issues with Windows XP. I like it. It does anything I want it to do. Just like Linux and Mac OS can do anything Windows does; Windows can do anything Windows does. Update: Oh, and another tip that I discovered last week, now that I'm giving them out anyways. Open 'My Computer', right-click on "Local Disc (C:\)" and select properties. Hit the "Tools" tab and press "Error Checking". Select both check-boxes, hit OK. OK in Properties box. Reboot Windows. It'll take about ~30 - 40 minutes. But it helps avoid bit-rot.

Author:	rizzix [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:50 pm ]
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my point: it's soo delicate! i don't do any of that on my mac, and it's still soo damn stable! The same goes with my linux. (ok.. ok.. excluding anti-vir scans)

Author:	wtd [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:53 pm ]
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As Rizzix says... that is delicate. Computers were made to serve humans, not the other way around.

Author:	Notoroge [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:56 pm ]
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wtd, that's like saying, "Cars were made to serve humans, not the other way around". I still have to do oil checks, tire-rotations, upgrade crappy parts, etc. Just like a PC-box. Anyways, gotta catch the bus (work). Later.

Author:	rizzix [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:01 pm ]
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riiiite... but if you are spending soo much time in useless maintainance when there are other less time-consuming alternatives available. i;d say... you've got some really poor technology running there!

Author:	wtd [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:06 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: wtd, that's like saying, "Cars were made to serve humans, not the other way around". I still have to do oil checks, tire-rotations, upgrade crappy parts, etc. Just like a PC-box. Frankly, a car shouldn't require all of that work. I'll be darned if there any comparable solutions that don't require that kind of maintenance, though. Now, let's look at computers... there are comparable solutions that don't require so much maintenance. There isn't any particular price penalty for them either.

Author:	Notoroge [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:03 pm ]
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Eh, all Operating Systems require their own different kind of maintenance work. And I don't mind Windows. It's not like I have to go to a tech-repair guy's shop every week to get maintenance. I just run 4 programs weekly when I'm not using the box for anything else. Wooo, so much work. I think I'm so exhausted I'll go take a nap.

Author:	Tony [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:26 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: Eh, all Operating Systems require their own different kind of maintenance work. rizzix wrote: i don't do any of that on my mac, and it's still soo damn stable! I second that. My mac is awesome

Author:	Martin [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:54 pm ]
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My new Dell PC is going to be even awesomer.

Author:	wtd [ Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:37 pm ]
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Youcan argue about the awesomeness of a home-built PC, or even a pre-built server, but a Dell? That's like getting excited about a "suped up" Chevy Cavalier.

Author:	Notoroge [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:43 am ]
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Don't be hatin'. Dell's are decent boxes. At least for poor University students. Personally, I'm waiting for the new Intel PowerBooks.

Author:	wtd [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:13 am ]
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Notoroge wrote: Don't be hatin'. I'm not. Dell builds some of the most unreliable junk on the market. They're also sleazy in how they run business, using the old bait'n'switch trick constantly.

Author:	Notoroge [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:07 pm ]
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Do you just instinctively dislike large corporations? My sister's had the same Dell PC for about 6 years and in all that time, I think the most serious issue I ever had to fix on it, was a corrupt MBR. Which the Windows XP Recovery Console fixed easily with, coincidentally enough, the "FIXMBR" command. Oh, and a crap-load of spyware. Which I fixed. But, yeah, completely unrelated to the hardware. Maybe you just got a shitty deal once and have been peeved ever since? Update: Oh, and it cost her roughly $300. And she got the speakers, keyboard, mouse, printer, and a 15" monitor.

Author:	Dan [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:10 pm ]
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I have had masive problems with the dell laptop i used to have. It had to be fixed at least monthly. there was a problem with the mother borad desing where it whould short out and some random keys whould stop working, or the mouse or other problems. Then affter about 3 years and the warty runing out the screen littrealy feal off my laptop. i kid you not, one day it just when plop and feall on the group. tho i was able to duck tape it back on, the cords where still atached. then affter a month of having it taped the screen just gave out. that is when i bought an alineware where the only problem i have had for over a year is over heating witch is mostly my fault.

Author:	wtd [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:51 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: Do you just instinctively dislike large corporations? My sister's had the same Dell PC for about 6 years and in all that time, I think the most serious issue I ever had to fix on it, was a corrupt MBR. Which the Windows XP Recovery Console fixed easily with, coincidentally enough, the "FIXMBR" command. Oh, and a crap-load of spyware. Which I fixed. But, yeah, completely unrelated to the hardware. Maybe you just got a shitty deal once and have been peeved ever since? Update: Oh, and it cost her roughly $300. And she got the speakers, keyboard, mouse, printer, and a 15" monitor. You got lucky. Dell counts on the vast majority of people not complaining and holding Dell responsible for defects to make money.

Author:	timmytheturtle [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:52 pm ]
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I got a Dell, its not that bad. But the next computer I buy won't be a dell. it came with alot of usless crap on it, especially that stupid Utility Parition. I haven't had any major problems with it, other then no AGP slot, and the 64mb of integrated intel "extereme" graphics. But other then that, I rarley have hardware problems.

Author:	Notoroge [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:01 pm ]
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Yeah, they're pretty low end. But the prices match what you get, which is good. There are some really kick-ass Dell laptops out there. But yeah, I won't buy one, just because now that the new PowerBooks will be Intel based, I'll pretty much just end up with the same, maybe slightly better, hardware. But as a bonus, I'll have Mac OS X on it. So, yeah, I'll just go with that.

Author:	wtd [ Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:45 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: Yeah, they're pretty low end. But the prices match what you get, which is good. There are some really kick-ass Dell laptops out there. But yeah, I won't buy one, just because now that the new PowerBooks will be Intel based, I'll pretty much just end up with the same, maybe slightly better, hardware. But as a bonus, I'll have Mac OS X on it. So, yeah, I'll just go with that. Similar parts, but Apple tends to do a better job of quality control.

Author:	Martin [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:51 am ]
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No arguement there, but I really don't need phenominal tech support. If something breaks, I need replacement parts, which Dell does a fine job of getting. I don't see where these Dell complaints come from though. My dad's company leases 300 or so Dell computers and he's never had any problems. Also, I know a few people who have Dell computers, and the only problem that any of them have had (beyond spyware, which is a Windows problem) was a motherboard that burnt out after two months. He sent his computer in and got it back and repaired within a week. Dell is the largest computer manufacturer in the world with around 25% of the global market share, and this means that they must have return customers. My real motivation for getting a Dell is that I honestly can't build a computer for as cheap as this one is. 19" LCD, 3.40GHz p4, 1GB ram, 250GB HD, ATI x850XT for $2500? Insane. Also, all of the reviews I've read have been very positive. And as usual, Apple is out of my price range.

Author:	wtd [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:00 am ]
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You're spending $2500 and Apple is out of your price range? What do you think a Mac costs anyway?

Author:	Martin [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:09 am ]
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A quick comparison with a low end G5. Processor: G5 - Dual 2GHz PowerPC's Dell - 3.40GHz P4 with HT. Comparison - Impossible. I'll leave this out. Hard drive G5 - 160GB Dell - 250GB Memory G5 - 512MB @ 400 MHz Dell - 1024MB @ 667MHz Video G5 - 128MB Radeon 9600 Dell - 256MB Radeon x850XT PE Monitor G5 - None included. Dell - 19" LCD So...why buy a Mac?

Author:	wtd [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:10 am ]
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I'm not going to argue about the comparative values of the two systems, but to say a Mac is out of your price range is silly.

Author:	wtd [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:16 am ]
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Also, I'm guessing from the specs that you purchased it primarily with gaming in mind. Keep in mind that you've purchased a very large, very noisy $2500 game console and ask yourself how good a deal you got.

Author:	Dan [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:53 am ]
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Martin wrote: I don't see where these Dell complaints come from though.............. Also, I know a few people who have Dell computers, and the only problem that any of them have had (beyond spyware, which is a Windows problem) was a motherboard that burnt out after two months............ What am i not a person you know? I whould say the screen falling off your laptop and needing replament parts every month is a BIG problem, but that could just be me........

Author:	Notoroge [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:08 am ]
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@wtd, A very darn good one. Because although he might have baught it with the intention of playing games on it, it's not that only thing he'll do. And since it's a gaming system, it can do those other things very well. @Dan, you got unlucky. Either you were too rough on the poor thing, or you managed to get one of the few defective PCs that do manage to ship-out. But that's where the warrranty comes in.

Author:	Martin [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:55 am ]
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The things I use my computer for: On the Windows side: AutoCad, 3dsmax, Photoshop, and yes, games. Besides, I play strategy games, something no console has done successfully yet. On linux, I program and do homework. I want to put my $2500 into something that does this best. My friend has the same system. It's noisy, but only because of the Audigy 2 and the 5.1 sound. Otherwise, it's no louder than my home computer. Sure, it's not a Mac Mini, but I'm not buying it to look pretty.

Author:	Dan [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:09 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: @Dan, you got unlucky. Either you were too rough on the poor thing, or you managed to get one of the few defective PCs that do manage to ship-out. But that's where the warrranty comes in. It was not one of the "few", that hole srears of laptops had this problem. And the warranty is all good and well but they just replace the broken defentve parts with new defetive parts witch makes it run for another month. (tho it dose give me some happyness knoing that they lost money on me b/c they had to replace so many parts). Also i whont my laptop to last for more then the limited warranty they offer.

Author:	Martin [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:19 pm ]
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Sad thing is, they don't lose money on that. Computers have VERY low fixed costs - that is, the actual hardware manufacturing cost of a modern computer is maybe $50. Now, the rest of the markup pays for research and development of the chips, building plants, marketting and of course profit (Intel's plants for one are insanely expensive to build) but a manufacturer like Dell can buy processors for replacements for literally a couple of dollars a piece. The same goes for the rest of the hardware in the computers. "Don't want to give me cheap replacements? Fine, we'll talk to someone else. Oh wait...you changed your mind? Good man." They could replace your computer twice over and still be making profit.

Author:	Dan [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:29 pm ]
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Martin wrote: They could replace your computer twice over and still be making profit. They replaced the mother borad over 20 times, the keyborad about 10, the mouse about 3~4, and the case 2 times and the batterly one time. Hell we knew the reapre guys by first name bases at my house, and it whould be like "see you next month" when he left......god i hate dell...... tho addmitly they did come to my house to fix it every time.......well intill the warenty ran out and the screen fell off (oddly the times considesed).

Author:	wtd [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:59 pm ]
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Martin wrote: Sad thing is, they don't lose money on that. Computers have VERY low fixed costs - that is, the actual hardware manufacturing cost of a modern computer is maybe $50. Now, the rest of the markup pays for research and development of the chips, building plants, marketting and of course profit (Intel's plants for one are insanely expensive to build) but a manufacturer like Dell can buy processors for replacements for literally a couple of dollars a piece. The same goes for the rest of the hardware in the computers. "Don't want to give me cheap replacements? Fine, we'll talk to someone else. Oh wait...you changed your mind? Good man." They could replace your computer twice over and still be making profit. And they make even more money because many customers will assume anything that goes wrong with their new Dull is their fault (Since everyone knows a large corporation like Dull must be incapable of fault) and not even try to use the warranty to get it fixed. They'll continue to use it in its broken state, or buy a whole new system.

Author:	wtd [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:01 pm ]
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Martin wrote: It's noisy, but only because of the Audigy 2 and the 5.1 sound. Otherwise, it's no louder than my home computer. Sure, it's not a Mac Mini, but I'm not buying it to look pretty. No, seriously, go use a G5 some time. Nearly silent. It's a "quality of life" thing, but it's really quite amazing, and there's nothing else in its price range that can match it.

Author:	Martin [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:36 pm ]
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Yeah, there's a lab of them at Waterloo. They're nice computers, but the specs that I want aren't in my price range. And the allegation that customers don't cash in on a warrenty when something goes wrong is true for all companies, not just Dell. Again, that's an education problem, not a Dell problem.

Author:	[Gandalf] [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:36 pm ]
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wtd wrote: Also, I'm guessing from the specs that you purchased it primarily with gaming in mind. Keep in mind that you've purchased a very large, very noisy $2500 game console and ask yourself how good a deal you got. Understand that not everybody agrees with your thoughts on console gaming compared to PC gaming. Quote: Besides, I play strategy games, something no console has done successfully yet. That comes to mind too. edit Woah, thats a lot of posts that I didn't see... I wouldn't buy a mac for the one reason that, why would I get one if I can get something better for less? The fact that it's a mac doesn't change that. Now I am sure that people will disagree, but that is what comes to mind in all this discussion. edit2 it seems I just skipped a page, thats why

Author:	Notoroge [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:01 pm ]
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Martin wrote: Again, that's an education problem, not a Dell problem. [Gandalf] wrote: why would I get one if I can get something better for less? I don't mind paying extra if I'm going to get the same hardware but at the same time, be able to run OS X/Windows natively on the same box. That was my point. Plus, I don't mind paying extra for a pretty OS/box. Why would anyone buy an iPod over a Rio or Dell mp3 player, if both the latter have more functionality for the same cost?

Author:	wtd [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:59 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: Why would anyone buy an iPod over a Rio or Dell mp3 player, if both the latter have more functionality for the same cost? Access to the iTunes Music Store is a big reason. Another is that the iPod is a simple device. It does what it does, and it does it well. Quite often you'll find this is better than something that does twice as much, with half the ease of use and quality. Access to third party peripherals. You want to claim this as an advantage for the Wintel world... well, that sword cuts both ways. It's simply far easier to find third party extras for an iPod than it is for any other player. A simple product line helps tremendously. When the average person shops, simplicity is a good thing. Three choices (iPod, iPod mini, iPod shuffle) vs. as many as twenty choices from other manufacturers often with oddly overlapping price ranges. It just easier to buy an iPod. The last of those can be seen elsewhere. Dell recently attributed singificant (~$300M USD) for the last financial quarter to a convoluted product line and overly complicated pricing. Apple suffered from the same malady before Steve Jobs came back and simplified the product lines. People don't like to hesitate when it comes to buying decisions. The longer they waiver, deciding between two different models, the more likely they are to buy neither model.

Author:	lyam_kaskade [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:19 pm ]
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Hacker Dan wrote: They replaced the mother borad over 20 times, the keyborad about 10, the mouse about 3~4, and the case 2 times and the batterly one time. They replaced the case?...twice? What happened to it? Does Dell offer PCs without Windoze? That seems like a good enough reason to go somewhere else to me, saves $100-200 on an OS. But then, Martin still uses Windows for AutoCAD so it doesn't really matter... (I know, Apple makes you pay for an OS too, but OSX > Windows)

Author:	Martin [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:31 pm ]
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It sucks having to use iTunes. I'll be programming, and then I'll have to restart my computer and leave it on in Windows for 30 minutes to load up my iPod and then reboot again into Linux to get working again. REALLY annoying.

Author:	wtd [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:39 pm ]
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Martin wrote: It sucks having to use iTunes. I'll be programming, and then I'll have to restart my computer and leave it on in Windows for 30 minutes to load up my iPod and then reboot again into Linux to get working again. REALLY annoying. Run iTunes via WINE? Also, have you checked out GTKPod?

Author:	rizzix [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:58 pm ]
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wtd wrote: Run iTunes via WINE? Wow.. i didn't know that was even possible.

Author:	Martin [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:25 pm ]
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I didn't know about gtkpod, I'll check it out. I could never get it to work (for the iPod) through Wine though.

Author:	rizzix [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:08 pm ]
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wait wait wait... u got iTunes to run through WINE?!?

Author:	Notoroge [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:47 pm ]
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wtd wrote: Access to the iTunes Music Store is a big reason. You don't need an iPod for that, just iTunes. wtd wrote: Another is that the iPod is a simple device. It does what it does, and it does it well. Quite often you'll find this is better than something that does twice as much, with half the ease of use and quality... Dude, okay, you wasted that entire post on me. Re-read my post and check-out the context of that statement. I was asking a retohrical question to make a point. ie: "Just like I would pay more for the same hardware because I'd get better support/quality, people would rather buy an expensive iPod with less features, instead of a Dell mp3 player". I was responding to [Gandalf]'s, [Gandalf] wrote: why would I get one if I can get something better for less?

Author:	[Gandalf] [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:03 pm ]
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Well, ya... wtd's post did tell me something, but I was talking more about mac's. You would buy a Mac just so that you can use OSX? Quality, well, I have never had a problem with the 'quality' of non-mac computers and I would rarely use support anyway. The only support I need is a helpful community, and there are plenty of those for things other than macs. I just don't see why I should buy a mac when I don't have to. It seems like pointless spending of money to me.

Author:	wtd [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:28 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: wtd wrote: Access to the iTunes Music Store is a big reason. You don't need an iPod for that, just iTunes. Well, if you want to take it with you, without burning and reripping it. And the latter part of my post wasn't exclusively for you, so not a waste.

Author:	Notoroge [ Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:28 pm ]
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It's the whole novelty of it. If you don't care about looks and interfaces and just want functionality, then all the power to ya. I have a little extra cash to burn, and wouldn't mind a Mac. So, yeah.

Author:	Martin [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:10 am ]
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rizzix wrote: wait wait wait... u got iTunes to run through WINE?!? I got iTunes running sort of in Wine, but it was pretty sketchy. It would randomly crash and bugged out a lot.

Author:	Notoroge [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:43 am ]
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Martin wrote: rizzix wrote: wait wait wait... u got iTunes to run through WINE?!? I got iTunes running sort of in Wine, but it was pretty sketchy. It would randomly crash and bugged out a lot. Try it in CrossOver Office. Works like a charm. And I'm pretty sure it's officially supported; Although don't take my word on it.

Author:	Dan [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:34 am ]
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lyam_kaskade wrote: They replaced the case?...twice? What happened to it? Quite littery it feal aprat. It was a plasick case and the 1st time there where cracks all over it affter about 1/2 to 1 year of use. It got to the point where the guts where indanger of falling out. The second time the parts on the case that hold the barrys in fell off. there was a 3rd time it brok and i did not get it replaced, that was when the screen fell off.

Author:	[Gandalf] [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:24 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: It's the whole novelty of it. If you don't care about looks and interfaces and just want functionality, then all the power to ya. I have a little extra cash to burn, and wouldn't mind a Mac. So, yeah. Well, ok. The difference is that I would burn my cash on some even more functional stuff (higher end) rather than novelty.

Author:	Notoroge [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:01 pm ]
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[Gandalf] wrote: Notoroge wrote: It's the whole novelty of it. If you don't care about looks and interfaces and just want functionality, then all the power to ya. I have a little extra cash to burn, and wouldn't mind a Mac. So, yeah. Well, ok. The difference is that I would burn my cash on some even more functional stuff (higher end) rather than novelty. Like I said, "all the power to ya". It's personal preference. I like pretty things.

Author:	wtd [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:34 pm ]
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Notoroge wrote: [Gandalf] wrote: Notoroge wrote: It's the whole novelty of it. If you don't care about looks and interfaces and just want functionality, then all the power to ya. I have a little extra cash to burn, and wouldn't mind a Mac. So, yeah. Well, ok. The difference is that I would burn my cash on some even more functional stuff (higher end) rather than novelty. Like I said, "all the power to ya". It's personal preference. I like pretty things. This is a silly debate. Macs are pretty, but they're also highly functional. Anyone who thinks otherwise probably knows very little about the current state of Apple. Apple trivia: Virginia Tech's Mac cluster

Author:	[Gandalf] [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:44 pm ]
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What do you mean by functional? I don't really follow apple, but seeing specs and performance reviews, I wouldn't buy a mac if I can get something better for cheaper (I have said many times...) Macs don't have any appeal to me, tell me, why would I get one? Simply put, I have yet to see a convincing reason why Macs are better than an alternative. Maybe it's ignorance, but I try to follow and understand...

Author:	wtd [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:49 pm ]
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[Gandalf] wrote: What do you mean by functional? I don't really follow apple, but seeing specs and performance reviews, I wouldn't buy a mac if I can get something better for cheaper (I have said many times...) Macs don't have any appeal to me, tell me, why would I get one? Simply put, I have yet to see a convincing reason why Macs are better than an alternative. Maybe it's ignorance, but I try to follow and understand... It's the operating system, and the included software, as well as the attention to detail in the hardware. But mostly it's the software. Normally I don't encourage piracy, but install the cracked developer release of Mac OS X for x86. There are widespread instructions on how to do so. Google is your friend.

Author:	rizzix [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:29 pm ]
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WTD!!!!

Author:	wtd [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:57 pm ]
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Sorry, but I get really sick of hearing people talk about Mac OS X without ever having used it, and if that's the only way to get them to try it...

Author:	Martin [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:55 pm ]
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Hey, if I do that, can I get grub to recognize it properly?

Author:	Notoroge [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:25 pm ]
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It's not a debate. I'm just saying, Macs are pretty. If you want functionality, you can get anything and be functional with it. I just like functionality + prettiness. No debate. Just stating what we like.

Author:	[Gandalf] [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:39 pm ]
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Yes... Thanks for the info, but I think I will stick with my limited Windows/Linux combination for now. I was just trying to give you a chance to change my mind (since I usually form strong opinions once I make them), but I will wait instead. If the oppurtunity arises then I will try.

Author:	wtd [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:03 pm ]
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Martin wrote: Hey, if I do that, can I get grub to recognize it properly? I have no idea. It is a developer release. I believe that it uses BootX, though, to manage multi-boot setups, if memory serves.

Author:	wtd [ Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:04 pm ]
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[Gandalf] wrote: I was just trying to give you a chance to change my mind There's nothing I can say that'll do as good a job of convincing you as just sitting down and using a Mac. And no, sitting down in front of something from 1998 doesn't count. As for trying different things: it's the same thing I say about programming languages. You'll never know what's really possible unless you jump in and ask questions, and nothing brings up questions better than just sitting down and using something new.

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