Computer Science Canada

Official DDR Homepad thread (was about PSX controllers)
Author:  Mazer [ Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Official DDR Homepad thread (was about PSX controllers)
Do you have a PSX controller handy? I need some help (I don't have access to any right now), if it's not too much trouble.

Lay the controller flat on the ground/table/desk or whatever flat surface. What is the highest point of the controller? Like:
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
It's quite clear that the highest part would be the analog sticks. Could somebody find out how high that is? (as accurately as you can get it, please)

If there are versions of the gamepad without the analog sticks, those measurements would be fine as well, assuming the gamepad can still be found in stores and is compatible with PS2s.

Confused yet?
OK, thanks.

(Basically I want to know how little space I can get away with for storing one, preferrably without damage).
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Alright, mine (standard, I think) is exactly 6cm high at the tip of the analog stick. I'd say around 6.1cm to be safe though Wink.
Author:  Mazer [ Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
So that's straight from the tip to the surface, with the pad resting on the shoulder buttons? I know in the picture the pad looks like it's kinda sitting on the cord.
Oh! Also, does the cord come out at an angle that would kind of push it against the ground the controller is resting on? Damn this lack of side pictures from google image search!

And thanks for your time, Gandalf! It is much appreciated Very Happy
In fact, +20 bits, +40exp
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Coutsos wrote:
So that's straight from the tip to the surface, with the pad resting on the shoulder buttons? I know in the picture the pad looks like it's kinda sitting on the cord.

Yes, its sitting flat on the floor, cables going away from it.

Coutsos wrote:
Oh! Also, does the cord come out at an angle that would kind of push it against the ground the controller is resting on? Damn this lack of side pictures from google image search!

Not sure what exactly you mean... The cord comes out of the dead center of the back of the controller. The way it bends really depends on how you kept it stored, always curled up or whatever. Normally though, even if you leave it on the floor the cable can go quite a bit without touching the floor, so I would answer your question, no. I don't think it would get in the way of the controller resting on the floor unless you majorly curled it up, but there's even some space for that.

Thanks, I have quite a bit of time at the moment Wink.
Author:  Mazer [ Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:27 am ]
Post subject: 
[Gandalf] wrote:
Coutsos wrote:
So that's straight from the tip to the surface, with the pad resting on the shoulder buttons? I know in the picture the pad looks like it's kinda sitting on the cord.

Yes, its sitting flat on the floor, cables going away from it.

Sweet.

[Gandalf] wrote:
Coutsos wrote:
Oh! Also, does the cord come out at an angle that would kind of push it against the ground the controller is resting on? Damn this lack of side pictures from google image search!

Not sure what exactly you mean... The cord comes out of the dead center of the back of the controller. The way it bends really depends on how you kept it stored, always curled up or whatever. Normally though, even if you leave it on the floor the cable can go quite a bit without touching the floor, so I would answer your question, no. I don't think it would get in the way of the controller resting on the floor unless you majorly curled it up, but there's even some space for that.

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant. I'm glad you could figure it out.

[Gandalf] wrote:
Thanks, I have quite a bit of time at the moment Wink.

Very Happy

EDIT: A couple more questions.
1) Does anybody have a non-dual shock controller and could they find the measurements for me?
2) How much does your grip of the controller rely on the handles? Would it be really bothering if the ends were chopped off?
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
1) I only have 2 dual-shock ones.
2) Well, it would be a lot like playing a playstation with the old nintendo controllers. Except keep in mind that the nintendo didn't have two pretty big analog sticks or dual L/R buttons. I don't know, its hard to tell, but I wouldn't really like playing with a controller like that, and I don't think most people would. Your fingers would be like this constantly:
_
||
|

Smile

Besides, there might be some wiring or something in those handles.
Author:  Mazer [ Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
Nah, there's no wiring it's all empty there. The PCB is pretty much rectangular (crappy picture). I wonder if I could remove them in a way that I could stick them back on easily when I need is as a gamepad. But then, this is still the early stages of planning and I don't even know how much space that would save me. I need to get it under about 2", preferrably less so I can make sure it's secured safely.

Thanks again for the help, especially since I've been unclear as to what this is all about. I'll post some pics later to give you a better idea.
Author:  Mazer [ Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
OK, so it's come to my attention that "dual shock" actually refers to the two motors inside the controller handles to create a rumble effect. In my ignorance, I originally thought it was for the dual analog sticks (I had no idea where the heck they were pulling "shock" from).

I also know that some games (One involving monkeys, the name of which escapes me. Another being Katamari Damacy, possibly, I'm not too sure on that) actually require a controller with analog sticks to play it at all. Are there any compatible playstation controllers that have the analog sticks but no motors?
Author:  Blade [ Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:31 am ]
Post subject: 
with a dual shock controller, you should be able to cut the motors out and have no problem. the ps/ps2 should recoginize it but it just wont rumble.

btw, i'm curious to know what you're making. it could be interesting
Author:  Mazer [ Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:38 am ]
Post subject: 
A DDR pad for my computer, with a PSX controller I could connect while playing at a friends house. I was planning to use the front-right panel to store music CDs and the front-left to store the PCB for the USB keyboard I'll be using for input to the computer. I'd also like to use that to store the PSX controller if I have room, but at the moment this doesn't seem very possible.

I'd like to leave the controller as intact as possible (so I can use it as an actual controller when needed), but it may be that I could cut into the wood to get a little extra space, we'll have to see.

Behold, the crappishly quick rendered DDR Pad plan OF SCIENCE ("of science" should be read in a loud deep and echoing voice just like on Bill Nye)

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Keeping in mind that:
- the yellowish-brown material is wood
- the red panels are actually mirrors (plastic ones, I found some cool junk in the basement) mounted on wood
- the arrow panels are just wood painted black, hopefully with a more reflective paint for the arrow design (arrow design temporary).
- the right (open) panel, shows two screws on the left which will be contacts for the right arrow. the piece of sheet metal (which can't be clearly seen here) would touch the screws and complete that circuit. There are pairs of screws on the other edges of the panel but you can't see them because they are covered by the aforementioned pieces of sheet metal.
- as for the "storage panel" idea, my plan is to have some pegs sticking out (parallel to) the bottom of the panel so that you could push it forward a bit and then lift the panel off. There's some stuff on the front to prevent the panel from sliding during play, more pictures to follow afterwards.

EDIT: Feel free to comment on possible arrow designs. That's just something I threw on with the arrow graphic I grabbed from StepMania. Just keep in mind I'd rather not use the standard "Show me your moves!" pic.
Author:  Mazer [ Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Explanation of the compartment for the upper left (and right) panel:

My original idea:
1. The panel as it normally is. There are two pieces of metal on the font that hold it in place.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
2. The stoppers are turned to the side
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
3. The panel is pushed forward
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
4. The panel can now be lifted from the rest of the pad. Bad angle, it seems. You can't get a clear view of the pegs on the underside of the panel...
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

My new idea:
1. Instead of having the stoppers on the front, there are now hinges on the side. I chose the side over the front so that I could still have wires going through the hole on the front without having to make it big enough for a USB/PSX connector (it'd be big Shocked)
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
2. The panel is lifted from the side opposite to the hinges and it rotates nicely out of the way.
2.1 There'd be a sort of clasp (?) on the edge opposite to the hinges to keep the panel closed, something like what you may find on the inside of a cabinet door in a kitchen.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Update: a picture of the reflective red panels.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
I wanted to take a picture with my digital camera, but I can't find any AA (no, I'm not talking about DDR you kidder you!) batteries with any charge. So I had to reboot into windows and use my Crappy Webcam of t3h blurry +2 for the picture. That's the red panel on the left (duh) mounted on two bottles of water. It's actually a very clear reflection that gives a really cool effect. I'll take another picture later after the AA's finish charging.
Author:  Tony [ Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
nice looking renders, what are they done in?

Anyways, why not just get a PS DDR pad and use that to build the platform with? This way you don't have to disassemble your hand controller. I bet you would also get a better responce.
Author:  Mazer [ Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Tony wrote:
nice looking renders, what are they done in?

Thanks. The renders are done in Blender, of course, though now that I think about it they really remind me of the sketchup renders I always see people using when they're trying to come up with ideas for case mods.

Tony wrote:
Anyways, why not just get a PS DDR pad and use that to build the platform with? This way you don't have to disassemble your hand controller. I bet you would also get a better responce.

Sure, I guess it'd be easier, but there's a few problems.
1. Originally, I just wanted to use this on my computer and over 90% of the time that's all I'll be using it with. I payed about $1.50 for a USB keyboard which is much nicer than getting a good PSX-USB adapter shipped from Korea.
2. I'd still have to take the pad apart, and then I have the PCB and a useless dance pad. As I have it planned, I'll have a connector built into the back of the controller or something so I can still use it for games (hopefully). And aside from disassembling the dance pad, I'd still need to build my own to replace it.

I'm pretty sure that was it, I can't think of any other reasons at the moment.
Author:  Tony [ Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
maybe I missed it somewhere between the renders, but how exactly are you planning on translating a step on the pad to a digital signal in your computer?
Author:  brenn [ Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wouldn't it be much simpler to purchase and using a DDR mat? They go for about 10 - 20$ CND, and have the.. port connection thingie to plug into computers. It's more portable than a solid one built out of wood...

Yours is definitely flashier, though 8D

Tony wrote:
maybe I missed it somewhere between the renders, but how exactly are you planning on translating a step on the pad to a digital signal in your computer?


I could be wrong, but from the way it sounds, are you going to route it somehow to your keyboard, and have that transfer the digital signal to the computer? (Since all you need are four/six keys configured to the up-down-left-right/up-left;up-right arrows -- I don't suppose you're going to incorporate the latter two arrows though, they weren't in the pretty renders ^^; )
Author:  Blade [ Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
yeah, that would make sense to me. i have this program i use to convert buttons pressed from a joypad to keyboard buttons for windows... its for the games that dont support joypads so i can still use them
Author:  Mazer [ Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:42 am ]
Post subject: 
I bought a cheap USB keyboard from Future Shop a while back for this. I took out the PCB and will be using that for the DDR pad. If that doesn't make sense, it's because I'm too tired right now (closed last night, going to church now) to explain. When I get home I'll make some extra pretty renders (lens flare, anyone? Razz ) to show you.

I've seen the up/left up/right arrow DDR ("Pump it Up," right?) but didn't really like it. Sorry...

And yeah, sotre bought would be cheaper, but wouldn't really last. More on this later.
Author:  AsianSensation [ Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:43 am ]
Post subject: 
Of course, those $20 dollar pads are mostly junk, and die quickly if you want to play alot on it. Say Coutsos was playing Tsugaru on it, it will die long before he gets tired of that song. Razz

I got myself an Ignition foam pad, which is also feeling strains right now, the covers and stuff are all torn and has to be taped up.

If you want a good one, it's going to cost you around $150+ to get a metal pad like at the arcade, which Coutsos is trying to build himself right now (except substituting wood for metal). Though the cost might come down to closely the same anyway......
Author:  brenn [ Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Smile A twin DDR set goes for about $20 k USD

/random
Author:  Mazer [ Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Back to the keyboard explanation for a moment.
Firstly, I can't show you the guts of my keyboard (if anyone else wonders, it turns out the company "Cicero" is actually just a little shit owned by Best Buy to give us more crappy products) because I'm waiting for the AA's to charge right now, so you can just to a Google image search for keyboard PCB (PCB meaning "Printed Circuit Board" if I've been guessing correctly all this time) to get an idea of what I'm talking about. There's some number of contacts on the circuit board inside the keboard (it varies, I believe) in two groups. Pressing a key on the keyboard bridges the connection between the contact from one group to a contact from the other group (let's call these groups X and Y). If you take all the combinations of these keys you'll get a nice table. So, for example, here's some of the mapping for my keyboard:
keyboard_code:

( X,  Y)
(02, 08) [Enter]
(03, 08) [Up]
(04, 13) [Enter] <- keypad?
(05, 08) [Left]
(05, 10) [Right]
(05, 11) [Down]


Now, with only a little more than 20 contacts on a small circuit board, we could theoretically have support for over 100 keys (it depends on the encoder for the keyboard which and how many are actually used).

Now in terms of the DDR pad.
Say I want to hit the Up arrow. I push down on that panel, and underneath strips of sheet metal come into contact with screws. One screw will be connected to the X group (contact number 3) on the keyboard PCB, the other connected to the Y group (contact number 08). When they're connected, the PCB understands a key is being pressed and eventually sends that information through the USB cable to the computer. It's especially nice that it's being recognized as a keyboard because
1) In this day, how many people don't have a USB connector?
2) There's no desktop PC out there that can't recognize a keyboard, so now I don't need to worry about drivers.

Originally, I was planning to have this connected to my regular keyboard (a PS/2 connected keyboard that I use all the time). The problem with this is I can't switch between keyboard and dance pad whenever I like because it's PS/2. My "solution" was that I would use some RJ-45 cable to connect from the pad to the keyboard that I could remove whenever necessary. I actually spent 20 minutes cutting a whole into the back of my keyboard using nothing but a screwdriver, a pocket knife, and a wrench. I'd say I did a pretty damn good job. I spent another 10 minutes trying to de-solder a $J-45 connector from an old ISA network card. Anyways...
With the 8 wires available, I chose 8 keys such that they shared some of the same connectors from group X or Y that would allow me to only need 6 of the 8 wires on the cable. Why? Because then I had 2 wires free to use with +5v and ground, and that means some P.I.M.P. LED action. That was with my now obsolete-but-still-pretty-cool Portable Cardboard DDR design. Which actually worked somewhat. (pics available here, here, here, and here but they are LARGE and not terribly clear, I'll post the designs and prototypes later).

Gimme a few minutes and I'll be back with visual aids for the circuit wiring. In the meantime you can amuse yourself with DDR Riptide's design, which I'm basing this on quite heavily.

EDIT:
Here's a quick render
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
So you have the two (coated) wires, orange for the X group, gray for the Y group. The pieces of sheet metal attached to the underside of the panel are touched to the screw contacts and thus touch the X wire to the Y wire. (I keep forgetting to actually put in the pieces of weatherstripping that are supposed to keep the panel suspended above the screws when you aren't stepping on it.

Sorry for the crappy render this time. I wanted to turn on the transparency so you could see the wire go through from the right panel to the upper left where the PCB should be, and then I had to turn off the raytracing so you could see more clearly, after which I was too lazy to play around with the lamps. Which is why you get that ugly glow in the middle. Oh, and I added the drawing of the wires in GIMP as a post processing.

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