Totally against this! For one, I think people should have privacy online, and two, I'm with Teksavvy as well...
Computer Science Canada Ontario Canipre to get peoples' personal information |
| Author: | Panphobia [ Tue May 14, 2013 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ontario Canipre to get peoples' personal information |
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/right-click/battle-against-internet-piracy-coming-canada-172625021.html Sadly I have teksavvy for an ISP, so Canipre will be looking through my downloads. Do you guys think this is right? |
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| Author: | Nathan4102 [ Tue May 14, 2013 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Totally against this! For one, I think people should have privacy online, and two, I'm with Teksavvy as well... |
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| Author: | 2goto1 [ Tue May 14, 2013 9:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
They won't be looking through your downloads yet. According to the news item, "Canipre is asking the Federal Court to force Ontario-based Internet provider Teksavvy provide them with customer information." This means that they haven't been granted legal right to the database, yet. It will be up to the Canadian Federal Court to make the final decision. Hopefully they don't allow it. Granting access would be a very slippery slope, in many different ways, that could introduce a deluge of similar cases. I'm sure the Federal Court will recognize that. |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Tue May 14, 2013 10:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Even if they do get access, Canipre is known for not following up on lawsuits. They'll threaten you with legal action and charge a big fine, but if you don't pay the fine they don't follow through. It's worth sending out ten thousand threatening letters or emails, but with the $5000 cap on internet piracy fines, they would actually lose money if they took you to court. It's just not worth it for them. |
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| Author: | 2goto1 [ Tue May 14, 2013 10:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Right, which is also summarized near the end of the article: "[Canipre] also focuses on education. According to its website, 95 per cent of people stop illegally downloading copyrighted material when asked to. Which suggests a high number of those people understand what they are doing is illegal and stop once they understand the consequences. So while this might not be the start of an all-out copyright war, perhaps it is the beginning of an education campaign." |
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| Author: | Dan [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Does any one know if there are any laws in Canada or Ontario that state that an ISP has to keep logs? Or has to keep them for more then a few days? It seems that if there is no law about it, Teksavvy could just set up there system to rotate the logs that map IPs to users every week or so. You can't subpoena logs that don't exist. It would be unreasonable to ask an ISPs to keep logs forever just from a technical standpoint. |
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| Author: | 2goto1 [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Not sure, but it seems that Teksavvy may keep 3 months worth of logs, http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/r27850772-Info-Length-of-time-Canadian-ISPs-retain-IP-address-logs. Then again, another blog indicated 90 days, http://torrentfreak.com/how-long-does-your-isp-store-ip-address-logs-120629/. So there may be laws, and it may only require something relatively short lived. I would imagine that some ISPs archive usage data to long term storage beyond their short term audit logs, for various service quality and regulatory purposes. I would also speculate that Canada's municipal police agencies, RCMP, CSIS, etc., all require ISPs to provide their logs to them on a regular basis, for the purpose of local and national security. |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 3:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Do Microsoft products like Windows and Office count as one of them when it comes to piracy? |
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| Author: | Nathan4102 [ Wed May 15, 2013 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
I doubt they'd go for people who just download a few small things (Like office and maybe windows). They're targeting the people who upload and share like 250+gb of pirated data a month. Eliminate the uploaders so the downloaders can't download. |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 4:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
This is why I actually plan to move away from Microsoft products, for good. |
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| Author: | Panphobia [ Wed May 15, 2013 4:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Who downloads anymore pffft, I just stream. |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 4:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
That counts as downloading too. |
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| Author: | Nathan4102 [ Wed May 15, 2013 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
How does one stream pirated goods? |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 4:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
By means of P2P networks (Torrents)? |
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| Author: | Nathan4102 [ Wed May 15, 2013 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Isn't that downloading though? Streaming would be downloading, and viewing it as you download, like a youtube video. Pretty sure that's not possible with torrents, correct me if I'm wrong. |
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| Author: | Panphobia [ Wed May 15, 2013 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Isn't Piracy defined as Infringing Copyright for the intention of financial gain? So technically when you download a movie, it isn't piracy until you sell it...right? |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 5:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Some P2P downloaders have a "preview" function |
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| Author: | Nathan4102 [ Wed May 15, 2013 5:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
"Unauthorized copying or sharing of computer software" By downloading, you're copying the software to your computer, which is pretty much fits the definition. |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Therefore, downloading a trial version of a software hosted by the creator's site is also illegal, as this can facilitate software cracking after installing. |
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| Author: | Nathan4102 [ Wed May 15, 2013 5:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Well you're fully authorized to download a free trial, but somewhere in the TOS, it says i's illegal to altar or crack the trial application. |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 6:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Except that if it is legal to download these trials but not to crack them, there is no way to track these illegal downloads. |
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| Author: | Nathan4102 [ Wed May 15, 2013 6:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Trials are usually downloaded as .zip, .rar, .exe, or sometimes .bat's. Pirated content is almost always downloaded as a torrent on large torrenting sites. So I think they're separable, and I'm pretty sure these companies have ways of telling what torrents you're downloading. People in the US are being sued for piracy, so it can't be impossible! |
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| Author: | 2goto1 [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Panphobia @ Wed May 15, 2013 5:07 pm wrote: Isn't Piracy defined as Infringing Copyright for the intention of financial gain? So technically when you download a movie, it isn't piracy until you sell it...right?
Piracy is not usually defined that way. Piracy is typically the act of copying something else without permission to do so, regardless if it's done for financial gain or not. In the case of a music CD say, piracy would be if you burned your friend's music CD. Piracy could even be if you copied your own music CD to your computer or iPhone. In both cases there is no financial gain for you, you're just committing piracy. An example of piracy with financial gain can be found around nearly all universities. You'll find shady print shops who happily sell copied university textbooks to money conscious students. They literally create copies of the current university texts, and sell them to students at a deep discount compared to the legal printed copies. I've never seen any of these places shut down, but I have known one that was sued civilly, although I don't know what the outcome was. Despite the fact that these shady print shops are making money off unauthorized reproductions of books, they are not committing a legal crime. So copyright piracy with financial gain is not necessarily theft. In a similar legal case, in 2009 The Business Depot was sued for ten million dollars by Access Copyright, alleging that the chain allows people to copy books. I'm not sure what the result of the case was. Contrast copyright with theft. If you copy your movie DVD and sell it, then you're committing piracy / copyright infringement. However, if you were to gain possession of the original master film that the movie was stored on, or if you shoplift the item, then you're committing theft. |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Except that if you legally own a hard copy and rip it to your own computer, it is completely legal unless you distribute it to someone else. |
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| Author: | Panphobia [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
If it is not done for financial gain, then why doesn't the government go ahead and ban libraries? Basically the same thing, some guy buys a dvd puts it online and shares it with everyone. A library buys a dvd and rents it out to people for free also. |
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| Author: | 2goto1 [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
randint @ Wed May 15, 2013 4:34 pm wrote: This is why I actually plan to move away from Microsoft products, for good.
This is the case with any commercial software that you have to pay for. Windows and Office are typically products that you have to pay for, so if you use a copy that you didn't pay for, and you didn't pay for the original, then you've likely committed piracy. Keep in mind that Microsoft does provide some products for free, but the core Windows operating system is usually not given away. There really is no need to use Microsoft products. There are numerous open source alternatives such as all the various Linux distros. As a comp sci student you would benefit from going fully open source. The learning curve for Windows, if you wind up having to use various software on it, is pretty low. |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Which some people like me would rip to my computer (but not distribute to anyone else) if I think it is good. |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Yeah, it takes so much time just to pirate a piece of software, I might as well download free legit open source stuff. |
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| Author: | 2goto1 [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
randint @ Wed May 15, 2013 10:40 pm wrote: Except that if you legally own a hard copy and rip it to your own computer, it is completely legal unless you distribute it to someone else.
Wrong. Remember that if you distribute it to someone else, it's still legal. It's just a copyright infringement. You're not committing a crime by infringing on a copyright. Well, it can be a crime, but it's not always. According to Wikipedia, "however, not all copyright infringement results in commercial loss, and the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that infringement does not easily equate with theft." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement. If your friend already had purchased the CD, but their CD was damaged by their CD player, and then you copied your CD and gave it to them so that they could enjoy it again, did the original producer experience a commercial loss? I imagine the difference to be extremely grey, with a general leaning towards copyright infringement not being illegal, more often than not. |
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| Author: | 2goto1 [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Panphobia @ Wed May 15, 2013 10:40 pm wrote: If it is not done for financial gain, then why doesn't the government go ahead and ban libraries? Basically the same thing, some guy buys a dvd puts it online and shares it with everyone. A library buys a dvd and rents it out to people for free also.
I think a library would buy something under a different license agreement, as compared to you or I. A radio station can't pay $10 for a CD and expect to be able to play it over the air as much as they wish. They, like libraries, would have a different agreement, and a different price, for the same DVD. |
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| Author: | 2goto1 [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
randint @ Wed May 15, 2013 10:44 pm wrote: Yeah, it takes so much time just to pirate a piece of software, I might as well download free legit open source stuff.
I pirate stuff all the time, but open source is great, wonderful. There are open source alternatives for practically everything. |
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| Author: | randint [ Wed May 15, 2013 10:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Good point, 2goto1 |
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| Author: | mirhagk [ Thu May 16, 2013 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Libraries get special licenses from the government in order to distribute and show content. Schools, camps, churches and other groups also get similar licenses to show movies. You actually can't show movies or play music in any place that the general public could have access to (if you have a party and allow anyone in, then you're not allowed to play a movie or music technically. But then again so is having a gathering of more than 20 people in the park without a permit) |
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| Author: | Panphobia [ Thu May 16, 2013 2:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
That is crazy lol, can't show at a party. Also if a teacher were to show a movie to the class, that they brought in, would that be illegal? |
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| Author: | mirhagk [ Thu May 16, 2013 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
No because as mentioned, schools get licenses to show movies to classes. If they didn't have a license, then yes it'd be copyright infringement |
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| Author: | Nathan4102 [ Thu May 16, 2013 3:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
My teachers bring in personal burned dvd's to show the classes... The license wouldn't happen to cover that, would it? |
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| Author: | Panphobia [ Thu May 16, 2013 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Same thats why I said it lol... |
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| Author: | Nathan4102 [ Thu May 16, 2013 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Oh, I thought you meant purchased DVDs. |
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| Author: | mirhagk [ Thu May 16, 2013 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Yeah the license is for showing ANY dvd, no matter who purchased it I believe, having to force the teachers to go through a supplier would mean older or obscure movies can't be shown, which is probably 99% of the movies they actually show. |
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| Author: | Nathan4102 [ Thu May 16, 2013 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Some of these laws are kind of ridiculous. Media creators should just accept the fact that people are going to play music in public and loan movies/books to friends. You can create as many laws as you want, if they aren't enforced, they mean nothing. |
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| Author: | randint [ Fri May 17, 2013 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Ontario Canipre to get peoples\' personal information |
Nathan4102: +1 to post. Some laws here are just too stupid. you know. Canipre cannot get very far due to a very simple technical reason: an IP address is not a person, and therefore no one can prove that an IP belongs to a particular computer. Even if it does, one can argue that, since the plaintiff cannot prove that the computer was not hacked, therefore the defendant is not liable. The other thing is virtual machines. Nowadays, anyone can buy a computer with 8GB RAM and 1TB HDD, I can create VMs, so that even if the MAC address of a VM is known, it does not mean anything, as VMs can be changed/deleted. |
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