Computer Science Canada

Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Author:  Jonab12 [ Fri May 03, 2013 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
I plan to take Computer Science at Ryerson in the Fall. And to my shock I learned the completion is rate is a mere 68% (compared to 75 for U of T and 85 for Waterloo). But its a very good university according to some and its really well funded.

Although I am really good in computers and programming strangely I am not the best in math.

I am projected to get:

75 - Advanced Functions
70- Physics
85 - Data Management
80 - English
78 - Computer Science
[] - Calculus in Summer

Ryerson courses

Calculus
Discrete Mathematics
Physics
Computational studies
Liberal studies


I have the work aptitude to work hard but throughout high-school problems were tedious to me. In Comp Sci I would make the best GUI and have the best organized code but when it came to linked lists I suffered and was constantly in confusion for that course.

Looking at my computer achievements so far I have built servers, made applets, got taught how to configure switches, took electronics. I help with the tech crew of my school and the Comp Sci club. And all I want to do is program but math takes a long time for me to understand

---

I glanced at Bit-wise Notation and the Big O to study for Discrete Mathematics and I had to research, ask around and spend some time to get it. In university maybe I wont have the time because everything is semestered and short. I don't know...


Advise???
Author:  Tony [ Fri May 03, 2013 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
I'm not sure where you are getting those completion rates from. My understanding is that 40% of UWaterloo CS students don't continue past 2nd year (though they probably still graduate with some other degree).

Ryerson is likely not as demanding as UWaterloo and UofToronto are, but you'd need to be able to pick up on Linked Lists and Big-O such that you'll understand both really well.

Are you sure that you want to pursue CS? It really has very little to do with hardware and GUI.
Author:  crossley7 [ Fri May 03, 2013 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
I'll go along with Tony on this point for CS as from what I have seen, there are a lot of people that fail out first year math (not just CS... first year is the same for both programs essentially) and CS is a lot of theory. You won't get many hardware type or gui courses in a CS program and probably won't be able to until about 3rd year (at least that is the case at Waterloo, not sure about other schools). Make sure you enjoy doing math and are solid at it before you choose to pursue CS.
Author:  DemonWasp [ Fri May 03, 2013 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
To back up what crossley7 is saying, university-level Computer Science programs are really about Computer Science (the study of computers) rather than programming. Any programming you do is basically incidental: you have to show that you understand the theory, and developing an application or writing a snippet of code is sometimes the most direct way to do that.

At UWaterloo, you won't encounter the following until at least third year: databases (CS348), operating systems (CS350), concurrent/parallel programming (CS343), user interfaces (CS349). Courses like graphics, networks, distributed systems, machine vision, machine learning, and artificial intelligence are all fourth-year courses. There are no courses on programming, per se; you are expected to learn several languages (at least Scheme, C, C++ and Java at UWaterloo) on your own.

Any computer science program is going to involve a LOT of math. As an example, here's a list of the math courses that I've taken (the ones that I've passed anyway):
Math 135 Classical Algebra (required)
Math 136 Linear Algebra I (required)
Math 137 Calculus I (required)
Math 138 Calculus II (required)
Math 236 Linear Algebra II (required)
Math 238 Calculus III
Math 239 Introduction to Combinatorics (required for some CS degree types)
Stat 230 Probability (required)
Stat 231 Statistics (required)
AMath 331 Applied Real Analysis (one of a few options for a requirement)

In addition, I took several "CS" courses that involved zero programming:
CS245 Logic and Computation (required)
CS341 Algorithms (required)
CS360 Theory of Computing (one of a few options for a requirement)
CS370 Numerical Computation (either this course or CS371, which is very similar, is required for a CS degree)
Author:  A.J [ Sat May 04, 2013 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
I wouldn't say that CS341, CS370/371 requires zero programming, but yes the emphasis is on the theory. Nonetheless, you should have a liking for some of the topics (may it be AI, Algorithmic programming, or just programming in general) if you intend to take CS, because I know of many people who got into CS just for the heck of it and aren't really enjoying themselves at all.
Author:  shire2 [ Sat May 04, 2013 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
All you have to do is take the time to fully understand each thing, for example what is it about linked lists that confuses and I'm sure you can find many great explanations online. But i didn't learn about linked lists and big-o until this past year (my first year at uoft) so you're already ahead which is good.
Author:  Jonab12 [ Thu May 09, 2013 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Tony @ Fri May 03, 2013 7:56 pm wrote:
I'm not sure where you are getting those completion rates from. My understanding is that 40% of UWaterloo CS students don't continue past 2nd year (though they probably still graduate with some other degree).

Ryerson is likely not as demanding as UWaterloo and UofToronto are, but you'd need to be able to pick up on Linked Lists and Big-O such that you'll understand both really well.

Are you sure that you want to pursue CS? It really has very little to do with hardware and GUI.


In regards to my sources I went on each University website (e.g. http://www.utoronto.ca/about-uoft/measuring-our-performance/cudo/cudo_2008/other.htm - you can scroll down to see undergrad rate)


Also this is important to know...

I feel Computer Science is the only way to go. There are so many people in the world who have the basic knowledge of computers, they know how to build one, many have made websites, tech support is everywhere and
there are virtually no jobs. If I pursue this degree not only will I go into something I like but I will be secure, it will be dynamic to a degree and Il enjoy it. CS is the top level computer course. I don't want anything less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmM_xDzy2nU - There was a video similar to this that said in the year 2020 over 400,000 CS jobs will be left empty due to a lack of graduates from the program. Isnt that a secure feeling? Also I love devlopment despite my average level of logical thinking.

I feel I know so much in terms of concepts but I don't want my Jack of All Trades level of thinking to mitigate my ability to do well in the logical aspect of University.
Author:  andrew. [ Thu May 09, 2013 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
You listed some hardware-related achievements in your original post. How did you like them?

I'm currently in computer engineering at UW and I like the balance between hardware and software. So far, our software courses have had practical programming in it (not as theory based as CS). And our hardware courses are interesting too. I'm just wondering if you've thought about going into computer engineering or if it's something that interests you.
Author:  Jonab12 [ Thu May 09, 2013 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
andrew. @ Thu May 09, 2013 11:31 am wrote:
You listed some hardware-related achievements in your original post. How did you like them?

I'm currently in computer engineering at UW and I like the balance between hardware and software. So far, our software courses have had practical programming in it (not as theory based as CS). And our hardware courses are interesting too. I'm just wondering if you've thought about going into computer engineering or if it's something that interests you.



I am not planning to transfer to Computer Engineering or pursue it in the future, I want to go into Development.

I feel my hardware achievements have been easily attainable and again- its a matter of doing something above my means and above all levels.
Author:  Tony [ Thu May 09, 2013 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Jonab12 @ Thu May 09, 2013 9:09 am wrote:
Tony @ Fri May 03, 2013 7:56 pm wrote:
I'm not sure where you are getting those completion rates from. My understanding is that 40% of UWaterloo CS students don't continue past 2nd year (though they probably still graduate with some other degree).


In regards to my sources I went on each University website (e.g. http://www.utoronto.ca/about-uoft/measuring-our-performance/cudo/cudo_2008/other.htm - you can scroll down to see undergrad rate)


which says
Quote:

The subset was then matched against the records for students who received a degree (in any program) from the same institution during the most current seven year period (1999 to 2005).

So at UofT 75% of students who entered CS received some degree within 7 years. It is implied that some number less than 75% received a CS degree.

CS is a good program, just be aware that many students don't make it to the end for various reasons. Though being this determined and looking that far ahead into your future likely gives you an advantage over others.
Author:  Jonab12 [ Thu May 09, 2013 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
I just want to be ready and I want to graduate without wasting time or resources. (like everybody..)

Its just it hurts me knowing that many of my classmates in my math courses are able to solve problems faster than me, and several of them aren't pursuing a degree full of math.
I don't want to stress over the fact I wasn't born a left sided individual who can solve problems in the blink of an eye... Sad TBH my math marks are average to the course in my
school. (Yet half of my school is getting an 80%+ average and we have AP classes for almost everything because of our high academic ability)


How can I prepare myself?
Author:  Tony [ Thu May 09, 2013 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
(I deleted your duplicate post)

You can prepare yourself by figuring out why you think you are not performing as well as you want in those classes. A large part of University will be learning how to learn (unfortunately high school doesn't prepare you as well as it should in this regard).

It can be a combination of amount of practice, quality of practice, other study habits, etc. Studies show that top performers (in any field) actually practice their skills for fewer hours, but they do it very consistently and at a difficult level. Grinding out many hours of easy math problems that you already know how to do will get you a skill improvement of 0.
Author:  Jonab12 [ Fri May 10, 2013 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Tony @ Thu May 09, 2013 4:31 pm wrote:
(I deleted your duplicate post)

It can be a combination of amount of practice, quality of practice, other study habits, etc. Studies show that top performers (in any field) actually practice their skills for fewer hours, but they do it very consistently and at a difficult level. Grinding out many hours of easy math problems that you already know how to do will get you a skill improvement of 0.


I never thought about it that way. I always thought there are just so many concepts that skipping the basic ones and moving on to the hard ones will just confuse you. I don't believe this- that top performers study less by moving to harder concepts without mastering basic ones. It just amends the fact that they are gifted.

Do you think that Universities take prepared students or are their mark requirements are subject to competition?
Author:  crossley7 [ Fri May 10, 2013 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
What you do is you understand basic concepts quick enough that you apply them to harder problems and in the process of learning harder problems you learn the easier concepts really quickly because they are required knowledge for harder ones. keep repeating this process and you force yourself to learn how to learn which contrary to what they teach you in high school is not through hundreds of repetitions but a good grounding in fundamentals and then using those to solve hard problems.

However, the best of the best do often have a gift for understanding the concepts quickly but that is also something you can get by discovering the ways you learn best and applying those methods to your learning.

Universities take the students who are most likely to be prepared and since there isn't many good indicators of success, universities tend to use marks. However students with lots of extra curriculars tend to get in a bit easier partly because to be involved in many of those activities it requires a certain mindset and skillset that increases the chances of university success.
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Sat May 11, 2013 1:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Jonab12 @ 2013-05-10, 8:31 am wrote:
Tony @ Thu May 09, 2013 4:31 pm wrote:
(I deleted your duplicate post)

It can be a combination of amount of practice, quality of practice, other study habits, etc. Studies show that top performers (in any field) actually practice their skills for fewer hours, but they do it very consistently and at a difficult level. Grinding out many hours of easy math problems that you already know how to do will get you a skill improvement of 0.


I never thought about it that way. I always thought there are just so many concepts that skipping the basic ones and moving on to the hard ones will just confuse you. I don't believe this- that top performers study less by moving to harder concepts without mastering basic ones. It just amends the fact that they are gifted.

Practicing something that is difficult is not the same as practicing something that is beyond your level. The point is to challenge yourself while practicing, so that you can then tackle something that is beyond your previous level.
Author:  randint [ Sat May 11, 2013 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Hmm...I am going to the University of Waterloo, Honours Mathematics, Regular (because I got rejected by Co-op). I have the intention to major in Combinatorics and Optimization, perhaps with one other major within the Faculty of Mathematics. Does anyone think that CO is a good substitute for CS anyhow? I read from UW's site claiming that these 2 things have a lot to do with one another (CO teaches you a lot of theory?) Tony, have you had much experience with CO 4XX Graduate-level courses that involve algorithms? What are these about?
Author:  Tony [ Sat May 11, 2013 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Graduate level courses begin at 6XX; I think Compilers was the only one I took that was cross-listed as both 4th year and Graduate-level course.

My understanding is that the "Optimization" part of "Combinatorics and Optimization" is what's the closest to CS; and it would be more in the realm of theory (and pure math) than regular CS is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorial_optimization

Quote:

Combinatorial optimization is a subset of mathematical optimization that is related to operations research, algorithm theory, and computational complexity theory. It has important applications in several fields, including artificial intelligence, machine learning, mathematics, auction theory, and software engineering.

The cool part is that it will be specialized knowledge for dealing with some hard problems (where "hard" is a technical term -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-hard )

The flip side is that this specialized theory is not very applicable outside of directly working with this class of problems.

Though to be fair almost no CS class teaches any programming anyway -- find the right employment (don't let the lack of co-op stop you from trying), and grind out that practical experience.
Author:  Jonab12 [ Fri May 24, 2013 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Good news!

Last night I read 50 pages of a textbook on the Computational Theory.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6620632/Introcuction-to-Theory-of-Computation-by-Micheal-Sipser

I found it actually really interesting and enjoyed reading it. What I found amazing about the book was the fact that they made basic math recaps and then reconnected them to construct a bigger problem(s) which made me understand the math there.
Author:  randint [ Sun May 26, 2013 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
By what I mean CO grad school courses, I mean those CO 430, 434, 442, 444, 446, 450, 452, 463, 466, 471 and 485 where the statement "Cumulative overall average of at least 80%; Not open to General Mathematics students" appears.

And no, being rejected from co-op is not something that would stop me from finding a job on my own, either in a startup or a corporation, or even in the Faculty of Mathematics or UW in general, as a TA or RA. I would need a lot of money to pay my $26000-ish tuition (unless UW or the Ontario government is giving away x thousands of money).
Author:  Dan [ Mon May 27, 2013 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
randint @ 26th May 2013, 6:57 pm wrote:
or even in the Faculty of Mathematics or UW in general, as a TA or RA.


Most universities will only hire graduate students as TAs or RAs as they normally guarantee funding to them through those positions. Well it's not impossible by any means to get such a position as an undergrad, I would not count on it unless there is a shortage of grad students to fill them or you can convince a professor to spend some of there grant money on hiring you.

Quote:

I would need a lot of money to pay my $26000-ish tuition (unless UW or the Ontario government is giving away x thousands of money).


There is always OSAP.
Author:  randint [ Wed May 29, 2013 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Still, you need to pay that back, Dan.
Author:  Nathan4102 [ Wed May 29, 2013 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
I'd rather get a 60k/year job and pay 5% of it to OSAP for 5 years than work a 45k/year job and owe nothing. Obviously it's not ideal, but it's not that bad.
Author:  randint [ Wed May 29, 2013 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
OK, here is a thing: computer programming is slowly declining because we do not have too many breakthroughs in the last 10 years when compared to say the 1980s and 1990s. If you know that an industry is huge and growing (such as the health industry [doctors, nurses]), then you do not worry about the tuition expense because it is easy to get $1 grand/year. But then, CS is obviously different because (1) I do not want to become a systems analyst, as that would be the business side and I am not good at writing stuff; (2) programming can be learned by you reading books, watching YouTube videos and do some of it on your computer. CS is by no means computer programming, therefore...

If you have not realized, software piracy is obviously preventing (or slowing) this industry to grow. Right now, it is almost impossible to eliminate all forms of software piracy. Now, if you are the CEO of a company, would you want to invest $ x-billions of dollars into making a piece of "good" software that you know lots of people will be pirating anyways?

The only thing I can think of that CS is useful for is research. This is the Math side of CS, this is what gives programmers the power to make better programs. By inventing reliable and efficient algorithms, you are fundamentally improving a piece of software, not just adding new features into it.
Author:  crossley7 [ Wed May 29, 2013 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
randint, I will share this. Software piracy is primarily games which is not where the money is. There is a large amount of money available in private programming for corporations and the like. The industry IS growing and developing each day. Apps were barely known 5 years ago and now they are a multi billion dollar a year industry.

You should probably not take such a pessimistic outlook or think that everyone looks to piracy as an option. Piracy is an issue in the personal sales which hits music and movies the hardest. Corporations are the ones purchasing much of the software these days.

Just thought I would clarify that for you. I am now on my third summer developing applications and not once have I dealt with products that might be pirated.
Author:  DemonWasp [ Wed May 29, 2013 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Actually, as industries go, software development and IT is growing really quickly right now, and have been doing so for years. Employers frequently report having trouble finding software developers with the skills they want (though maybe that's their fault, for not offering enough incentives to entice the skilled developers).

Software piracy is, believe it or not, not a huge concern. Games built without DRM, even AAA-quality games, can and do make lots of money. Even Microsoft Windows, one of the most heavily-pirated pieces of software ever, somehow manages to run a profit. Adobe Photoshop, which is probably paid for by about 10% of the people using it, runs a profit.

It will always be impossible to eliminate all forms of piracy; it's just a question of how much money and effort you want to invest in chasing lost sales that probably never existed in the first place. Most pirates, if they cannot pirate, won't start buying software, they'll just do without. A few very skilled people might well make their own versions (GNU/Linux vs Windows, GIMP vs Photoshop, Blender vs (many programs), etc).
Author:  randint [ Thu May 30, 2013 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Microsoft makes a lot o f money because it has contracts with all mainstream Original Equipment Manufactureres such as HP, Dell, Toshiba, Acer, Asus and others. Now, keep in mind that Microsoft is able to do this because it has already made a lot of money, and the OEMs believe that by bundling Microsoft Windows on their computers, they would make a larger profit than if the computers are without operating systems or have Linux installed. This may have eliminated the need for most computer users to pirate, and therefore, Microsoft won, at least for now.

Actually, Windows 8 apps are not particularly useful on a desktop or standard laptop (why the **** am I going to buy an app that only runs on full-screen if I can easily download a standard application for free and run as "windows" [classic desktop])? I agree that tablets can be a large market for these apps, but I do not know the details. As for corporations to buy software...maybe? Yeah, I thought it was strange, Adobe Creative Suite costs $2500/license, who can afford that? Unless you are making $ x-grands every month, I do not think that such a huge investment would be worth the price (seriously, $2500 is enough to buy a top-of-the-line computer with 256GB SSD).

P.S. maybe this is a stupid question, but why are people not using free stuff (GPL-software) and are willing to pirate or even buy stuff? Is Linux really that difficult to use? (Oh, my stupid laptop does not even let me to install Linux, or even Windows, I am stuck and if I need to reformat, I have to hack something in the BIOS).
Author:  Tony [ Thu May 30, 2013 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
For Microsoft, the largest source of revenue is their Business Devision - http://www.microsoft.com/investor/EarningsAndFinancials/Earnings/PressReleaseAndWebcast/FY13/Q3/default.aspx

That is, more money is spend on MS Office products, than on the OS. Students might pirate... it doesn't matter, they wouldn't spend money on a word editor anyway. Small businesses, academia, government offices, and corporations will write large cheques for site licenses, instead of GPL software, because

1) historic lockin (staff is used to the tools)
2) arguably better (most FOSS will get you just 80% there)
3) business-tier support. Who are you going to call when Open Office fails to load the company's report spreadsheet?

Edit: I did say "most" (as in not all), but if anyone wants to yell "but Linux", consider http://www.redhat.com/ that will sell you an enterprise Linux server at up to $8600 / year subscription.
Author:  randint [ Thu May 30, 2013 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Tony, are you saying that the only way that Microsoft products can die is if there is something that makes them go bankrupt?
Author:  Tony [ Thu May 30, 2013 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Are you talking about some product in specific?
Author:  randint [ Thu May 30, 2013 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
No. Just Microsoft products in general.
Author:  Tony [ Thu May 30, 2013 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Okay... since Microsoft is so big and diverse, they can afford to use profits from one part of the business to support the losses of another business, as long as it's justifiable as a strategic investment.

E.g. Bing can afford to burn through money, as long as Office continues to be very very profitable.

You'd have to cut a lot of heads on this hydra for a specific product to get killed off.
Author:  randint [ Thu May 30, 2013 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
Like Office...it appears that they have given up on chasing down pirates they used to go after in the 2007-2010 period. That appears to be due to the failure of the Office Genuine Advantage program.
Author:  Dan [ Thu May 30, 2013 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Given the circumstances will Math kill me in Ryerson University?...
randint @ 29th May 2013, 4:05 pm wrote:
Still, you need to pay that back, Dan.


As far as loans go, OSAP is a great deal. 0% interest in till you graduate and there are repayment assistance options after that. The only catch is you have to be responsible with your money and know you have to pay back most of it eventually.


randint wrote:

OK, here is a thing: computer programming is slowly declining because we do not have too many breakthroughs in the last 10 years when compared to say the 1980s and 1990s.


How do you define a breakthrough? There is tones of innovative and novel research going on in computer science at both the academic and industry level. 10 years ago we did not even have Youtube, modern smart phones or cloud computing (at least not AWS).


randint wrote:

Like Office...it appears that they have given up on chasing down pirates they used to go after in the 2007-2010 period. That appears to be due to the failure of the Office Genuine Advantage program.


From what I have seen, Microsoft does not seem to be giving up on stopping piracy but focusing more on adapting their business model to make it unnecessary. A great example is when they had a limited program when windows 8 just came out to upgrade from Windows 7 (even a pirated copy) to Windows 8 Pro for only $15 with a simple online purchases. The solution to piracy is not to shove DRM down peoples throats or sue them, but to improve your service and keep prices reasonable so it is more work to pirate a copy.

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