Computer Science Canada epub DRM?! |
Author: | ecookman [ Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | epub DRM?! |
I just purchased a book collection from itunes with gift cards. ha good idea right? no. The .epub files contain DRM so I can not open the ebook on the software i want to read my ebook with....Any ideas on how to remove the DRM or is that illegal and I have to suck it up and use a ireader of some sort. |
Author: | ProgrammingFun [ Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: epub DRM?! |
ecookman @ Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:54 pm wrote: I just purchased a book collection from itunes with gift cards. ha good idea right? no. The .epub files contain DRM so I can not open the ebook on the software i want to read my ebook with....Any ideas on how to remove the DRM or is that illegal and I have to suck it up and use a ireader of some sort.
Suck up...or download pirated copy of ebook. |
Author: | ecookman [ Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
mmmm in this case I guess a pirated copy would be ok since I have bought it. Re-buying it just seems like buying the same book twice because some of the pages are stuck together. Still though I wish Itunes would allow returns >-> |
Author: | DemonWasp [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:29 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
This board doesn't officially endorse removing DRM (even if I do), so I won't link directly here. I will, however, say that if you used Google a bit I think you'd find at least one tool that would jailbreak your broken product. Don't forget to look before you buy next time. DRM that prevents you from using your product in any reasonable fashion is unacceptable. |
Author: | ProgrammingFun [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:48 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Jailbreaking is approved by the Library of Congress so shouldn't it be allowed to be linked on this forum? Also, it's pretty lame that iTunes doesn't let you read ebooks on your computer. |
Author: | Tony [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
Jailbreaking had been approved in U.S. for mobile phones. It wasn't tested if the same will be held for other locked devices. Also, that wouldn't necessary help with the DRM'ed files. ProgrammingFun @ Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:48 am wrote: Also, it's pretty lame that iTunes doesn't let you read ebooks on your computer.
Amazon Kindle yo. |
Author: | md [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
ecookman @ 2011-12-29, 10:56 pm wrote: mmmm in this case I guess a pirated copy would be ok since I have bought it. Re-buying it just seems like buying the same book twice because some of the pages are stuck together. Still though I wish Itunes would allow returns >->
You bought a licence to use the work in a particular way. Pirating another copy is definitely illegal in most countries. Quote: Jailbreaking is approved by the Library of Congress so shouldn't it be allowed to be linked on this forum?
Jailbreaking is not the same as removing DRM. Breaking DRM is firmly within the area deemed illegal. Also note that the Library of Congress has no say what's legal in Canada ![]() Quote: Amazon Kindle yo.
Still has DRM, even if it isn't quite as onerous. Next time pirate first, anything else and you're getting shafted. If you *do* see a book without DRM and you like it then buy it. If you don't like it email the author/publisher and tell them that you support DRM free products and see if they have any other titles available that you are interested in. |
Author: | RandomLetters [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
You bought it, do whatever you want with it. The law should serve society, not some big corporation. |
Author: | Tony [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
md @ Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:53 pm wrote: Quote: Amazon Kindle yo.
Still has DRM, even if it isn't quite as onerous. Fair enough. I was addressing the "read ebooks on your computer" point, and Kindle app comes in Windows, Mac, iPhone/iPad, Android, Windows Phone 7, and BlackBerry flavours. http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=kcp_ipad_mkt_lnd?docId=1000493771 There is also a "Kindle Cloud Reader" for app-free in-browser reading, and obviously actual Kindle devices. Though yes, the content is still DRMed and still "licensed". RandomLetters @ Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:25 pm wrote: You bought it, do whatever you want with it. The law should serve society, not some big corporation.
As md points out, he bought "a license". It's not exactly clear just how enforceable the terms are though. And as ideal as "serve society" idea might be... it just so happens that big corporations have a lot more influence over the law-making processes. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
The issue of DRM in Canada is completely different then the states. Canada has a policy that copyright laws are made for 2 reason: 1. So that organized crime can't make a lot of money off of pirated stuff (ie back alley selling of dvds) 2. So that a company can't steal someone else's ideas and sell them. Yes currently our copyright laws *technically* make pirating books/movies/games illegal, as well as breaking DRM, prominent representatives in the Canadian legal system have said that they really don't care about the average joe pirating, and they care even less about the average joe jailbreaking, or breaking DRM so that they can use it properly. anti-DRM basically only exists in case a big company figures out a way to profit from breaking the DRM of another company. And Tony, big corporations do NOT have as much influence as the masses. No matter how much money a big corporation can donate (which isn't very much due to legal reasons, and workarounds can end up with both parties in prison), they still only get one vote per person. Winning the election is a lot more important then having sufficient funds. Popularity buys more happiness then money. |
Author: | Tony [ Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
mirhagk @ Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:01 pm wrote: big corporation ... still only get one vote per person.
Sure, but MP's single vote carries a lot more weight right now than your single vote towards electing a different MP in the future. Though you are right, when the public masses hit the streets and media in opposition, an unpopular bill concedes. Unfortunately the population is typically apathetic about most issues. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
So then it's not the big corporations who have the most influence, it's just that not everyone else agrees with those few outspoken citizens. Most either don't care, or realize the benefits of the bill being passed. |
Author: | Tony [ Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
I'm sure that it wasn't "few outspoken citizens" that proposed the DRM bills and convinced the government to pass them. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
No, it wasn't. And that' isn't what I said. In fact I would have suggested the opposite. Mostly bills that are passed are opposed by a few loud outspoken citizens, who always cry that big corporations control everything. Nearly every bill that has been passed has had opposers, and it's a common occurrence for them to cry out that the power of this country needs to rest in the hands of the people. Problem is, it does rest in the hands of the people, just most people think the bill won't affect them, or they agree with it. There has been plenty of cases where a company tries to pass a law, and it gets shut down because of the people. CRTC recently tried to pass a law that allowed bell to smaller ISP's at a per-GB rate, and while I'm unsure of the exact result, I know that Harper said if it got passed by the CRTC, he would try to shut it down. See, the government works for the people, and even though the taxes of the people don't directly pay the government (big corporations income tax is a lot more than the average joe), the people being content makes them more willing to buy things, which ends up making everyone richer (well except when that money is wasted, but that's beside the point) |
Author: | randint [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | Anti-DRM strategy |
The most effective way to remove DRM on a EQUB File or PDF file is this: 1. Go to http://calibre-ebook.com/download to download Calibre, install the software 2. Go to http://www.datafilehost.com/download-4a2f247e.html to download the tools, extract the content to somewhere 3. Open Calibre, Click on "Preferences", select "Change calibre behaviour", "Advanced", "Plugins", "Load Plugin From File" Browse to the Extracted Folder, Go into Calibre_Plugins, Add all the *.zip files into the software, then, depending on what type of file it is, you may need some customisation. After that, import the DRM protected books into the Calibre GUI and they will be un-DRM-ed. Read this article, it might help you. http://apprenticealf.wordpress.com/2011/01/13/ebooks-formats-drm-and-you-%E2%80%94-a-guide-for-the-perplexed/ |
Author: | mirhagk [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
@randint, you may want to post that somewhere else and link it or something. This forum doesn't really like to get involved with stuff that may be illegal |
Author: | RandomLetters [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
I don't think (only) removing DRM is illegal. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
that's the thing, it's not clear whether it is or not, I mean technically your circumventing security so it possibly could be tried under the same thing as hacking. |
Author: | Tony [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
if by "hacking" you mean "unauthorized computer access", then... that's not really that applicable, as one is accessing a file, not a computer system. Furthermore, one might even be authorized to access that file! Apparently in U.S. DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent DRM locks, even if the underlying work itself is in the public domain In Canada it's... probably not yet illegal, but similar bills keep on popping up every now and then. Though even if such pass (U.S. companies pressuring U.S. government to pressure Canadian government?), it's still a matter of someone actually deciding that it's a good idea to prosecute. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
By hacking I mean circumventing security for unauthorized access. It needs not be a computer your accessing, it could simply be going into a part of a system that has security measures to stop you from going there. Jailbreaking a phone, and removing DRM are similar practices in that in both cases you own the object, and are circumventing security to make the object more usable. That's why Canada hasn't really made it illegal yet. |
Author: | Tony [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
Tony @ Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:35 pm wrote: U.S. companies pressuring U.S. government to pressure Canadian government?
And that... is a scary real thing. http://torrentfreak.com/us-threatened-to-blacklist-spain-for-not-implementing-site-blocking-law-120105/ Quote: In a leaked letter sent to Spain?s outgoing President, the US ambassador to the country warned that as punishment for not passing a SOPA-style file-sharing site blocking law, Spain risked being put on a United States trade blacklist . Inclusion would have left Spain open to a range of ?retaliatory options? but already the US was working with the incoming government to reach its goals. Quote: [the newly elected Spanish government] quickly responded and fully implemented the legislation within 10 days of taking office. Sounds like the bill was unpopular enough to be opposed by the previous government, even with threats involved. The new government had quickly taken a bill drafted by a foreign nation, and passed it into law. Sounds like a foreign corporation's "vote" is much much more important than an individual citizen's vote. |
Author: | ProgrammingFun [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
I don't think that US can blacklist Canada though, because of NAFTA, and the fact that we rely on each other so heavily. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Well the US is not a foreign corporation, it's a country, and yes they have more to say. Considering the country would be hurt a lot more by being blacklisted then by this law. It's really something the people should've voted for anyways once they saw that US was going to blacklist them. |
Author: | md [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
ProgrammingFun @ 2012-01-05, 12:35 pm wrote: I don't think that US can blacklist Canada though, because of NAFTA, and the fact that we rely on each other so heavily.
To expect the united states government to do things with make sense and aren't at best retarded seems like poor planning at this point. |
Author: | ProgrammingFun [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
md @ Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:04 pm wrote: To expect the united states government to do things with make sense and aren't at best retarded seems like poor planning at this point.
Very true ![]() And why would they? Canadian politicians are the USA's bi**hes anyway and do anything that they are told. I don't know why but I feel that Canada has always been the b***h of another country, first the UK (which has lessened to an extent) and now the USofA. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Lol well canadian politicians know that doing little things to keep foreign relations with the US good, is probably the best decision. US has tried to push laws in Canada, and they have refused. |
Author: | randint [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Criminal Code of Canada Explanation |
Criminal Code of Canada: s. 342.1 342.1 (1) Every one who, fraudulently and without colour of right, (a) obtains, directly or indirectly, any computer service, (b) by means of an electro-magnetic, acoustic, mechanical or other device, intercepts or causes to be intercepted, directly or indirectly, any function of a computer system, (c) uses or causes to be used, directly or indirectly, a computer system with intent to commit an offence under paragraph (a) or (b) or an offence under section 430 in relation to data or a computer system, or (d) uses, possesses, traffics in or permits another person to have access to a computer password that would enable a person to commit an offence under paragraph (a), (b) or (c) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, or is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction. Definitions -- s. 342.1(2) (2) In this section, "computer password" "computer password" means any data by which a computer service or computer system is capable of being obtained or used; "computer program" "computer program" means data representing instructions or statements that, when executed in a computer system, causes the computer system to perform a function; "computer service" "computer service" includes data processing and the storage or retrieval of data; "computer system" "computer system" means a device that, or a group of interconnected or related devices one or more of which, (a) contains computer programs or other data, and (b) pursuant to computer programs, (i) performs logic and control, and (ii) may perform any other function; "data" "data" means representations of information or of concepts that are being prepared or have been prepared in a form suitable for use in a computer system; "electro-magnetic, acoustic, mechanical or other device" "electro-magnetic, acoustic, mechanical or other device" means any device or apparatus that is used or is capable of being used to intercept any function of a computer system, but does not include a hearing aid used to correct subnormal hearing of the user to not better than normal hearing; "function" "function" includes logic, control, arithmetic, deletion, storage and retrieval and communication or telecommunication to, from or within a computer system; "intercept" "intercept" includes listen to or record a function of a computer system, or acquire the substance, meaning or purport thereof. "traffic" "traffic" means, in respect of a computer password, to sell, export from or import into Canada, distribute or deal with in any other way. R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 45; 1997, c. 18, s. 18. Possession of device to obtain computer service -- s. 342.2(1) 342.2 (1) Every person who, without lawful justification or excuse, makes, possesses, sells, offers for sale or distributes any instrument or device or any component thereof, the design of which renders it primarily useful for committing an offence under section 342.1, under circumstances that give rise to a reasonable inference that the instrument, device or component has been used or is or was intended to be used to commit an offence contrary to that section, (a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or (b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction. Well, who knows, DRM is not explicitly defined in this section, and what about http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/C-42.pdf and how it says? I haven't got any time to investigate into this matter. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Isn't stopping a security function intercepting a function of a computer system. The definitions are intensely broad so that it can be used for anything. Pretty much anything that's iffy on the computer can be defined under something here. |
Author: | Tony [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
No. Stopping of functionality is "interruption". Interception is you getting to listen in -- e.g. wiretapping VoIP calls. Edit: also even for interception of services, the law talks about fraudulent intent. That is, I can intercept and record my own VoIP calls (in Canada. In U.S. that would depend if one of the parties if from a all-party-notification states... in which case I'd have to let them know that a recording is taking place.) |
Author: | mirhagk [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:33 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
So then it's about what fraudulently and without colour of right mean. They could simply say that since the ToS say that you can't do that, you were expressly denied the right to do so. |
Author: | randint [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Companies Make Laws? |
Well, this doesn't make sense at all, why could these companies make laws to govern their customers and that such laws could be enforcible by the courts? Is our legal system deficient in this way? What is wrong with copying a book to another device that is also owned by you? I can understand that it is illegal to let someone else copy the material (as that would be copyright infringement), but then, what if I upgraded or replaced my eReader, computer etc. but I still own the book? Do I not have the right to read it? Un-DRM-ing a book is not going to affect the companies' profits is it? And what makes you think a person that paid for the book is going to upload it to the Web and let other people download the material? If I paid for something, why should I give it away to everyone for free? Is the buyer going to be that stupid? The companies are probably BS-ing after all, they do not use logic. |
Author: | DemonWasp [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:47 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
While it doesn't make sense from a rational point of view, it does make sense if you consider that these companies would love to sell you the same book several times. Doubly so if they're all electronic copies, which cost essentially nothing per copy. Companies interested in selling things like books, movies and music have been trying for 15+ years to get governments to institute laws that prohibit piracy, with considerable success (because lobbyists are effective, and these groups can afford them). They have also been trying to get laws in which will make it difficult or impossible to bypass their own DRM. The argument made is that you are not buying the data on the disk; you are buying a license to use the data on the disk in the methods they stipulate (which is thoroughly ridiculous in my opinion, but I'm not a lawyer). These measures include, but are not limited to: - prohibition of "reverse engineering", for any purpose (read any non-F/OS software EULA you want) - hefty penalties and fines for people who circumvent "license restrictions", such as any DRM software - legal seizure of any equipment or software used to distribute or produce unlicensed copies I see this as a part of a larger (and disturbing) push towards Corporate Rights and away from Individual Rights; this movement essentially traces its roots to the concept of Corporate Personhood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood), which is probably one of the worst legal mistakes of the past 200 years. There are more than a few organizations fighting for individual rights on these matters, but they are largely marginalized (frequently by themselves) as "pirates". See also Pirate Party of Canada, Pirate Party of Sweden. I am of the opinion that fighting for individual rights is the job of the government, not "pirates". |
Author: | mirhagk [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:23 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Actually DRM makes perfect sense for companies, and the original idea (some companies may take it to far) is made for the consumer. By making it illegal to circumvent security, it makes it a lot easier to find and incriminate people who distribute illegal copies of games/music/books. By giving away and accepting free copies of games/music/books it makes it so that the company loses a lot of profit. Since companies don't take the hit, they are forced to raise prices (whether or not that actually gives a higher profit) which means people who legally buy the same stuff are forced to pay more. DRM sucks for the consumer, but it's not the companies who screw it up, it's others who think it's fair to rip off people who made a product. EDIT: BTW DemonWasp, 1000 years ago the church controlled the entire government, and everyone was a slave to a few ruling lords, 200 years ago the british empire exploited an entire continent of natives in order to get furs, gold and other resources. 100 years ago people who tried to strike were killed, 70 years ago people who couldn't contribute to society enough were rounded up and killed by several different governments. I'm pretty sure our governments are getting better, not worse. |
Author: | Tony [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
mirhagk @ Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:23 am wrote: By making it illegal to circumvent security, it makes it a lot easier to find and incriminate people who distribute illegal copies of games/music/books.
This also makes it just as easy to find and incriminate innocent people who make legal copies. I'm not sold on the counter-argument of "oh don't worry, we'll probably not take you to court in that case", as the approach of "mark everyone guilty, decide whom to prosecute later" is a bad idea. Considering how prolific false DMCA takedowns are, the approach of "guilty until proven innocent" in not in favour of the citizens. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Well someone cracking into DRM software may not be totally innocent, that's still to be decided. And Canada has the same laws with many things that "innocent" people do. When the speed limit is 50, what do you drive at (assuming you drive)? It's most likely over 50, which is technically illegal. If the police wanted to they could incriminate nearly every single driver out there, but the laws aren't in place for people just going 5-10 over, it's made for people driving dangerously high over. Basically they are trying to do the same thing here. If the government wanted to f*** people over, this would be a horrible way to do it, there are thousands of laws in place that they could actually start enforcing. |
Author: | DemonWasp [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
@mirhagk: You have a reasonable point about how governments have done terrible things in the past. I don't think that means we can excuse corporate personhood. Perhaps I should amend my prior statement to "...probably one of the worst uncorrected legal mistakes of the past 200 years." My experience has been that DRM nearly always sucks for the legitimate purchaser, but has little-to-no detrimental effect on the pirate. There have been more than a few instances recently where the pirated, DRM-free media was the only working version. Speeding doesn't carry criminal charges in Ontario, no matter how fast you're going (although the police can suspend your license immediately if you're above +50km/h). Just fines and demerit points (which build up to suspension of license). So no, people who are speeding are not criminals, even though speeding is illegal. Other jurisdictions are probably similar. The government doesn't want to make life hard for people. Politicians want the financial support of corporations, so they tend to fight for corporate interest. Corporate personhood is the only reason that corporations are even allowed to make campaign contributions or lobby government (which was formerly reserved for individuals and special-interest groups). When crackdowns like you describe do happen, they are generally to take the heat off of politicians for some issue (see also G20 / G8 riots, questionably-legal police action taken there). The "fucking with people" aspect is usually very targeted. |
Author: | md [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Companies Make Laws? |
randint @ 2012-01-06, 10:13 am wrote: What is wrong with copying a book to another device that is also owned by you? I can understand that it is illegal to let someone else copy the material (as that would be copyright infringement), but then, what if I upgraded or replaced my eReader, computer etc. but I still own the book? Do I not have the right to read it? Un-DRM-ing a book is not going to affect the companies' profits is it? And what makes you think a person that paid for the book is going to upload it to the Web and let other people download the material? If I paid for something, why should I give it away to everyone for free? Is the buyer going to be that stupid? The companies are probably BS-ing after all, they do not use logic.
Here's where most people get tripped up. With electronic works (this includes DVDs and CDs, software, music, ebooks, etc.) what you are paying for is a license and not a copy of the work. What you buy is a license to use the work, based on the idea that you must copy it into memory in order to run it - and the owner has the right to control copying. The price you pay may also cover the cost of any physical media or transfer; but what you are emphatically not getting is the right to duplicate the copy you receive except as allowed in the license agreement you paid for. This is *very* confusing to a lot of people, *especially* those who have grown up with tape cassettes or older analogue technologies where the act of playing back the work does not require making a copy. It's made even murkier by CDs which don't require an intermediate copy (sort of...) and DVDs which do require an intermediate copy (again, sort of). DRM makes this even weirder since they are restricting what rights you do have under the guise of an agreement that most people don't know exists for the stated reason of reducing the cost to you while charging you the same or more! The sad fact is that copyright is very complicated an impacts *everything* you do *constantly* and yet because enforcement is difficult and therefore most people get away with near constant copyright violations very very few people care enough about it to do anything to improve the situation. When stupid copyright laws get passed it's because a couple of very small industries (music and movie producers) have devoted a lot of time and money to influencing politicians and there is no one to put in as much time and money arguing against the horrible ideas that those industries put forward. So, to sum up the horrible state of copyright in Canada: yes, creating a copy of your ebooks so you can read them on your new ebok reader *IS* against the law. And there's no such thing as moving files in the computer world. |
Author: | md [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
DemonWasp @ 2012-01-06, 1:07 pm wrote: My experience has been that DRM nearly always sucks for the legitimate purchaser, but has little-to-no detrimental effect on the pirate. There have been more than a few instances recently where the pirated, DRM-free media was the only working version. That's because DRM *cannot* have an effect on piracy. Piracy by definition happens after DRM has been removed from the original work. Many people (especially executives to whom DRM is sold as a solution) don't understand that all it takes is one hole or flaw and the DRM is useless and that mathematically DRM *must* always have a hole (or we must do away with consumer owned general purpose computers - see Apple) and all of a sudden you have piracy again. More recently DRM is being employed not to stop piracy but to simply delay it, which can work as a strategy. Alas once the piracy has started they don't remove the DRM which is usually all the more complicated and buggy.
DemonWasp @ 2012-01-06, 1:07 pm wrote: Speeding doesn't carry criminal charges in Ontario, no matter how fast you're going (although the police can suspend your license immediately if you're above +50km/h). Just fines and demerit points (which build up to suspension of license). So no, people who are speeding are not criminals, even though speeding is illegal. Other jurisdictions are probably similar. Oh how wrong you are. The "stunting" law carries an immediate 7 day license suspension (if you're charged under the act it's manditory, also it's 8 days if you are pulled over on the weekend due to bureaucracy) *and* your car is impounded for 7 days. Once in court you face a minimum fine of $2000 (up to $10000) *and* 6 demerit points (2 short of the number where you license gets suspended anyway) *and* a possible 30 day license suspension *and* up to 6 months in jail. Now, whether or not that counts as criminal I am not entirely sure (I don't feel like re-reading the law); but it's certainly not "just fines and demerit points". oh, and if your outside a small town far away from anyone who can pick you up and with no means of getting to your destination when you do get stopped... congrats! You're also stuck in the middle of no where! |
Author: | Tony [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
@mirhagk That's a poor reason to throw more blanket laws into the mix. The speed limits actually cover those 5~10 over cases, as you have to be over the limit by a certain percent. This accounts for equipment calibration / geometry / etc., and adds a level of certainty that a driver. Even if you are stopped at 15kmph over, there are 0 demerit points assigned (3 points at 16~29) (although there could still be a fine). The biggest difference is that with DRM/DMCA style laws, it's the private corporations that will be doing the policing, not the government (the government would be doing the enforcing at a corporation's request). As I've mentioned above, recent history shows much abuse with that. https://www.eff.org/wp/unsafe-harbors-abusive-dmca-subpoenas-and-takedown-demands Quote: RIAA sent a DMCA notice to Penn State ... nearly forcing the department's servers offline during exam period. RIAA had mistakenly identified the combination of the word "Usher" (identifying faculty member Peter Usher) in conjunction with an a cappella song performed by astronomers about gamma rays as an instance of infringement. RIAA admitted that it does not routinely require its "Internet copyright enforcers" to listen to the song that is allegedly infringing. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
@DemonWasp, again your *not corrected* fix still does not justify it. You could maybe say it's the worst uncorrected mistake in the last 20 years, but I seem to recall from history class that Canada had Japanese concentration camps, and when the people were released, they did not get their goods back, and or reimbursement for them. Point is, yes this sucks, but don't go bitching that people looking at what you do online is the worst thing to ever happen to free speech. Getting shot in china for mentioning democracy still happens today, compared to that Canada is safe haven. Feel free to complain, just don't say it's the worst thing to happen. EDIT: I would like to point out, just for clarification sake, that I am against obtrusive DRM, and against most of these bills being passed. But I am also against incriminating and/or slandering people just because they are rich and are trying to pass laws that potentially could be abused. Innocent until proven guilty. Feel free to oppose, but please stop with the slander, it's kinda why a lot of older people don't take you seriously. |
Author: | DemonWasp [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
md @ Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:30 pm wrote: ...your car is impounded for 7 days. Once in court you face a minimum fine of $2000 (up to $10000) *and* 6 demerit points (2 short of the number where you license gets suspended anyway) *and* a possible 30 day license suspension *and* up to 6 months in jail. Now, whether or not that counts as criminal I am not entirely sure (I don't feel like re-reading the law); but it's certainly not "just fines and demerit points". oh, and if your outside a small town far away from anyone who can pick you up and with no means of getting to your destination when you do get stopped... congrats! You're also stuck in the middle of no where!
Hmm; I wasn't familiar with stunt-driving laws in Ontario, probably because my license lapsed years ago and I have no intention of renewing it. For those curious: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm#BK201 So I was wrong: if you are more than 50km/h above the speed limit, you can receive criminal charges in Ontario (and potentially other jurisdictions). However, for less-excessive speeding, you will face considerably lesser penalties. That still seems lenient to me: if someone is stunt driving, why should they get to be back on the road in 6 months? mirhagk @ Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:20 pm wrote: ...Canada had Japanese concentration camps, and when the people were released, they did not get their goods back, and or reimbursement for them.
While that's true, that mistake was committed by the Executive / Legislative Branches of the Government of Canada, not the Canadian Judicial system. The only time the Judicial branch ever got involved (according to my skimming of Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Canadian_internment) was in testing the constitutionality of deporting Japanese-Canadians to Japan. Foolishly, the Supreme Court decided that it was okay to deport Canadian citizens who happened to be Japanese to Japan, but eventually reason prevailed and that ruling was overturned. Some (insufficient) compensation was later given for material goods lost (but not civil rights violated). I'm a little fuzzy on corporate rights in Canada (which seem to be much more limited than in the United States). The reason I even speak about the United States in this context is that the decision to support corporate personhood by the United States Judicial branch (1819, again in 1886) later affects the behaviour of the US Executive and Legislative branches, which then affect other countries, particularly Canada. I could qualify my statement more, but my point is that corporate personhood in the United States is the reason why corporations now can hold more legislative power than the public. This situation results in privacy invasion, loss of personal rights and freedoms, systematic destruction of communal resources (such as whole ecosystems), and limited corporate responsibility and taxation. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Corporate personhood seems to be allowed so that corporations have access to rights. It does not give corporations MORE rights than citizens, and not even the same amount. Specifically how does a single corporation through corporation persondhood become more powerful then the public. |
Author: | DemonWasp [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
The following is my opinion, based on the observations I've been able to make in my admittedly short time observing politics. Your mileage may vary. mirhagk @ Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:41 pm wrote: ...how does a single corporation through corporation persondhood become more powerful then the public.
The main reason I would cite is better organization. Even if political change would benefit individuals, the lack of organization represents a huge barrier to overcome in applying the aggregate money and power to influencing the political / legal system. For an organization with a top-down control structure (like a corporation), it is relatively easy to concentrate resources (money, influence) and present a unified ideology and goal. It is comparatively harder to get a group of people--even people united by common interest--to come to consensus on complicated issues, so there's correspondingly less organization. A second reason is that corporations have larger disposable income. People will tend to adjust their lifestyle to fit their income -- that is, you earn more, you spend more. Corporations tend to do the same thing, except that instead of going to fancier restaurants or buying shinier cars, that money often goes to generating a friendlier political or legal environment through lobbying. A third reason is that corporations can afford to constantly retain legal counsel, and individuals usually cannot. This enables corporations to have a much better hold of the legal system, and to generate precedents that improve their positioning. A large corporation can easily drop millions of dollars on teams and teams of lawyers to win a case, whereas a typical individual might be able to afford a few thousand dollars if they break into their savings accounts. There are instances of even the largest corporations being defeated by the combined will of the people. However, these instances are uncommon and usually follow particularly widespread, egregious behaviour on the part of the company involved. For example, Rogers and Bell were recently rebuffed by the CRTC, but only after attempting to screw thousands of people out of hundreds of dollars a year, put a dozen other companies out of business, and so forth. It took a concerted effort by their would-be victims to fight them to a relative standstill on the issue (and even then, TekSavvy's rates had to go up in response). The huge political influence Rogers and Bell wield is commanded by relatively few people; I would bet that most Rogers and Bell employees were either neutral or against UBB, but didn't really have a say in the company's direction. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Okay so Demonwasp, basically your argument is that corporations can control things because they have more money and can afford better lawyers and what not.... and this is alleviated how? Basically what your proposing is communism, taking away people's right to work hard and make money, and then enjoy it. With capitalism you can't deny people to make more money, and then to use that money to get a better life, better legal, better anything. How do you propose fixing these problems? Taking away corporate personhood just confuses legal systems, and the people behind the corporations still have that money for lawyers and such. |
Author: | randint [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Piracy for Legitimate Users is BS |
Well, you see, this is what a lot of companies are doing, WHY THE F**K is un-DRM-ing things illegal? Companies ONLY wanted to make money, stupid MPs, WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY THINKING? THEY PROBABLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT COMPUTERS! F**K YOU, MPs, YOU RECEIVE $160,000 A YEAR AND YOU DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD! I still recommend you to use my way to un-DRM whatever you need to transfer your e-Books, and that is legal if you purchased the books legally. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Again randint, under the current legal system that is what we are discussing about probably being illegal technically. Also if cracking DRM for your own sake was legal, why would you care if cracking it otherwise is illegal. If you haven't bought something, you shouldn't be using it. And you also can't read the minds of companies, possibly they wanted to create DRM for other reasons? Such as to not have to rise prices or lower quality because of a few selfish individuals? Regardless of the reason of certain companies, that was the principal of DRM. And do you not want to make money randint? Do you want to spend millions of dollars and years of time making something, just to give it away for free? Companies have every right to charge for things, and every right to restrict you. If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it, instead support DRM-free alternatives. |
Author: | Tony [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
mirhagk @ Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:33 pm wrote: Basically what your proposing is communism
I applaud your trolling skills. ![]() |
Author: | RandomLetters [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Removing DRM is not explicitly illegal, as there is no law or previous court decision that states such an act is illegal. Stop saying it is illegal. Furthermore, a state controlled economy is leftism, not necessarily communism. As well, your use of "communism" as a form of criticism is fallacious. Anyone who thinks that a laissez faire system would actually benefit all members of society is either ignorant and/or American. |
Author: | randint [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Why? |
Yes, they are allowed to charge you for whatever price they want, but they are not allowed to restrict your usage of the material (except for spreading it), do I not have the right to buy a new computer when the old one is broken and put the eBook on the new computer? Why should I buy it again? It just doesn't make a lot of sense. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Doesn't make sense, but if they sold you the first one on the condition it was for that one machine, then you already agreed to that. @tony&RandomLetters it's not about a state controlled economy it's about not allowing a person to make a certain amount of money, or not letting them spend it. Yes while that's not explicitly communism, it sure isn't capitalism. And capitalism isn't necessarily fair for everyone. By neither is communism. I'm still waiting to here a solution to it? |
Author: | Tony [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
RandomLetters @ Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:51 pm wrote: Removing DRM is not explicitly illegal, as there is no law or previous court decision that states such an act is illegal. Stop saying it is illegal.
This entire discussion intermixes Canadian and U.S. laws. The trend seems to be towards U.S. drafted laws (which is what kicked off this discussion, with Spain passing U.S. drafted "SOPA~like" bill). In the U.S., DMCA does indeed make removal of DRM illegal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act Quote: [DMCA] criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, whether or not there is actual infringement of copyright itself. RealNetworks, Inc. v. DVD Copy Control Association, Inc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealNetworks,_Inc._v._DVD_Copy_Control_Association,_Inc. Quote: The district court concluded that RealNetworks violated the anti-circumvention and anti-trafficking provisions of the DMCA when the DVD copying software RealDVD bypasses the copy protection technologies of DVD. Which is it not yet the case in Canada, it has been tried numerous times. Bill C-60, Bill C-61, Bill C-32. The latest proposed to make DRM breaking illegal http://www.themarknews.com/articles/1667-how-balanced-is-bill-c-32 Quote: TPMs, sometimes referred to as ?digital locks,? are technological measures that allow copyright owners to restrict access to and/or use of copyright-protected expression. Bill C-32 makes it an offence to circumvent a TPM which controls access to a work, a performer?s performance fixed in a sound recording, or a sound recording. It also makes it an offence to offer or provide services or devices to the public that are ?primarily for the purposes of circumventing a technological protection measure? (provided that certain other criteria are satisfied). While Canadian bills failed to pass due to government dissolution (all three times?), the same "DRM breaking is illegal" (in some form) will undoubtedly be reintroduced again soon. Bill C-11 ? |
Author: | RandomLetters [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
I thought that since this was a forum for Canadian students, then it would be Canadian laws that would be relevant. And, as of yet, breaking DRM is not illegal. |
Author: | Tony [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
fair enough. breaking DRM is not currently illegal in Canada, but the trend is towards this not being the case in the future, so this is an important discussion to have. Besides, a lot of this DRMed content is purchased from U.S. in the first place, so it's important to understand what's going on at both sides. |
Author: | Dan [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
RandomLetters @ 6th January 2012, 7:50 pm wrote: I thought that since this was a forum for Canadian students, then it would be Canadian laws that would be relevant. And, as of yet, breaking DRM is not illegal.
Due to cheaper bandwith and datacenter costs the servers which run the forums are in the united states. Which means we have to ensure the site complies with laws both in canada and the united states. This means simply telling some one how to break DRM on this site would be a violation of the DMCA, so it is at least revlevent to this topic :p |
Author: | randint [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Why Should A Canadian Care About Not To Break US Law? |
Well, generally, the people on this forum are living in Canada (or at least, have some form of status in Canada), but not the US, breaking the DMCA doesn't really matter to us, as it is United States law, not Canadian law, so why should we care after all? |
Author: | Tony [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Why Should A Canadian Care About Not To Break US Law? |
randint @ Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:34 pm wrote: why should we care after all?
Because U.S. is pressuring Canada into making "U.S. law" also be "Canadian law". http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5765/125/ Quote: Wikileaks has released dozens of new U.S. cables that demonstrate years of behind the scenes lobbying by U.S. government officials to pressure Canada into implementing a Canadian DMCA. The cables include confirmation that Prime Minister Harper personally promised U.S. President George Bush at the SPP summit in Montebello, Quebec in 2008 that Canada would pass copyright legislation, U.S. government lines on copyright reform that include explicit support for DMCA-style digital lock rules, and the repeated use of the Special 301 process to "embarrass" Canada into action. In fact, cables even reveal Canadian officials encouraging the U.S. to maintain the pressure and disclosing confidential information. Special 301 process presumably refers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_301_Report Quote: The reports identify trade barriers to US companies and products due to the intellectual property laws, such as copyright, patents and trademarks, in other countries. Each year the USTR must identify countries which do not provide "adequate and effective" protection of intellectual property rights or "fair and equitable market access to United States persons that rely upon intellectual property rights". So you should very much care about parts of U.S. law being written into Canadian Bills; what such provisions mean, and how they got there. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
However similar laws would be nearly impossible to happen so long as US made them first, since canadians know more about US politics then US citizens do, and care more about US politics more than their own. Everyone had an opinion on who should've won the last US election. A lot of people in Canada probably couldn't tell you who our PM is. (I know this from personal experience playing some trivia game with people aged 18-25, only a handful actually got our PM right). |
Author: | 2goto1 [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Mirhagk, IMO what you've observed are symptoms caused by the ongoing U.S cultural war to Americanize Canada. It is played out through lobbying, media, and various forms of propaganda. My belief at least is that this has been going on for centuries even though the US and Canada have good relations overall. It often plays out before our eyes without us even noticing it, that's how smart the war is. Of course, my rationale could be the conspiracy theorist in me, but I doubt it as I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist when it comes to anything else. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
2goto1 @ Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:19 pm wrote: Of course, my rationale could be the conspiracy theorist in me, but I doubt it as I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist when it comes to anything else.
Yes that is precisely what it is. I VERY much doubt that centuries of presidents (which would be at least 12.5 presidents per century) all agreed to a secret war to turn another country into part of America. And if they did, it was a poor choice, they could've just invaded at any point and done a better job. Besides, the way things are split between federal/state in the US, Canada could become a US state and not very much would change. I believe what you are referring to is the fact that the entertainment business is located in the US. So Canadian talent goes to the US, meaning Canada has no talent for it's own. This is not a conspiracy theory, it's a classic example of doing something first. North American pro soccer players usually don't stay in North America, they move to Europe, because Europe has better soccer. A programmer that lives in a small rural town usually does not stay there, but moves to Toronto, or the US, or Montreal, or some place where a lot of talent already exists. As for propaganda, well the US has always been proud of its country, and its had lots of propaganda for its own citizens. It just so happens that Canadians would rather watch US TV then Canadian TV. Also note that the only government action officially known about this was the creation of the CRTC, which was specifically supposed to make sure Canadians keep their culture. And lastly, what is "American" culture? It is EXTREMELY varied, and while its not as varied as Canadian is, Canadian citizens do a better job of destroying culture then any government organization, or the US. |
Author: | 2goto1 [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:21 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Historically speaking the US did invade Canada many many times. |
Author: | RandomLetters [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
And those invasions failed, yet natural expansionism never died. All wars (real, cold, or economic) are attempts to expand one's native socio-economic beliefs into another nation. It's understandable that if two nations disagree on an issue, then one would try to influence the other to have a more similar belief. Yes, the US has been trying to Americanize Canada, but also every nation in the world as well. |
Author: | Tony [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
woah, this is getting kind of out of hand. It's not a conspiracy; it's not a war. "Culture" is simply one of the major U.S. exports. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Thank you Tony. I am against these DRM-rules and stuff, but I am even more against assuming everyone is evil, everything is a conspiracy and a war |
Author: | RandomLetters [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
It's not a conspiracy if it's true! |
Author: | mirhagk [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
actually you might want to look up the definition of conspiracy. Still a conspiracy. |
Author: | randint [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Conspiracy - Criminal Code of Canada |
PART XIII ATTEMPTS -- CONSPIRACIES -- ACCESSORIES Attempts, accessories 463. Except where otherwise expressly provided by law, the following provisions apply in respect of persons who attempt to commit or are accessories after the fact to the commission of offences: (a) every one who attempts to commit or is an accessory after the fact to the commission of an indictable offence for which, on conviction, an accused is liable to be sentenced to imprisonment for life is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years; (b) every one who attempts to commit or is an accessory after the fact to the commission of an indictable offence for which, on conviction, an accused is liable to imprisonment for fourteen years or less is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term that is one-half of the longest term to which a person who is guilty of that offence is liable; (c) every one who attempts to commit or is an accessory after the fact to the commission of an offence punishable on summary conviction is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction; and (d) every one who attempts to commit or is an accessory after the fact to the commission of an offence for which the offender may be prosecuted by indictment or for which he is punishable on summary conviction (i) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding a term that is one-half of the longest term to which a person who is guilty of that offence is liable, or (ii) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction. R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 463;R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 59;1998, c. 35, s. 120. Counselling offence that is not committed 464. Except where otherwise expressly provided by law, the following provisions apply in respect of persons who counsel other persons to commit offences, namely, (a) every one who counsels another person to commit an indictable offence is, if the offence is not committed, guilty of an indictable offence and liable to the same punishment to which a person who attempts to commit that offence is liable; and (b) every one who counsels another person to commit an offence punishable on summary conviction is, if the offence is not committed, guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction. R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 464;R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 60. |
Author: | 2goto1 [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
It is plausible, all semantics aside! |
Author: | mirhagk [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Cause and effect is not a 2 way street. Cause: US decides to take over Canada by forcing their culture upon us. Effect: American culture is everywhere in Canada We have observed the effect, but not the cause, so you can NOT assume that that cause exists, merely that there is A cause. There are many different possible causes each with pretty high probabilities, so you can't say, without proof, that that cause exists. Show me that that cause is the most probable, or only cause for the shown effect, or some other evidence for that cause, and maybe it's viable, but as it stands, its another conspiracy theory thought up through improper use of cause and effect relationships. |
Author: | RandomLetters [ Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Take two countries, A, and B. There are only three ways for B to receive culture from A, if B actively takes culture from A, or if A actively passes culture to B or culture is passively shared between countries Since it is clear that Canada contains more American culture than America has of Canada, we can see that the third option can not account for all culture sharing, as it should result in an equal mix of culture among two countries. Since we often hear about people hating change, and rarely people loving change, we can conclude that B would not actively seek out a different culture as that would cause change. Therefore, B must attain A culture through culture sharing by A. Therefore, A culture within B must have come from A seeking to spread their culture. |
Author: | Tony [ Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
That doesn't seem right. RandomLetters @ Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:42 pm wrote: it should result in an equal mix of culture among two countries.
U.S. is almost 10 times the size of Canada (in terms of population). It wouldn't be reasonable to assume equal mix. RandomLetters @ Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:42 pm wrote: we can conclude that B would not actively seek out a different culture as that would cause change.
Only for very different cultures, and only if one is happy with their own. - if a Canadian artist moves to U.S., who's culture is being produced? I'm thinking especially of Justin Bieber, who's young enough to absorb U.S. culture really well. Canadian pre-teen girls are all over him, but who's culture is it? - after the Cold War and the fall of the USSR, Russians (especially the younger population) would view U.S. as "happy fun times" (Russia is not a very happy place). It would make sense for them to seek out and import some of that culture. Sure, this relies somewhat on younger population. Still, I'm not sure at what age one will become "old enough" to bitterly complain that U.S. television does now reference enough hockey. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
And to add to Tony's points, what the heck is Canadian culture? Canada is a mixing pot of cultures because we have many different cultures here from many different peoples. Technically "Canadian" culture would be the culture of the British and French that decided to settle here and form Canada, and they also settled a little south of here. The only thing that sets our 2 cultures apart are the different cultures that settled here after initial european settlement, and that would MANY different cultures. If anything "Canadian" culture is being bombarded by the massive amounts of immigration, or if you define canadian culture as the immigrantst culture then the culture is being destroyed by the native citizens culture. |
Author: | 2goto1 [ Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: epub DRM?! |
I'm not much of a hockey fan, I rarely watch hockey. I should have framed my theory a bit better. A "Hey hey baby baby oh like baby" pop song is entertainment, and popular music is a lowest common denominator form of entertainment that most Western societies (and many Eastern) enjoy. So more power to us - we should be able to choose to listen to and watch what we enjoy the most. I frame my theory around observable Canadian beliefs and behaviours that I've often seen time and again. These are almost cultural norms for many Canadians: - Many of us are nonchalant about being Canadian and would be ok if Canada became a US state (mirhagk mentioned this) - Many of us are embarrassed of our Canadian accents and actively work to sound more American to Americans, and even to Canadians (in the use of slang, tonal inflections, etc.) - notably expatriates working in the US. CBC Radio recently featured a Canadian working in New York recently who totally fits this mold. His radio time was to discuss his belief that Canadian speak sounds like retarded teenagers, more or less - Some Canadians (the recent CBC guest as well I'm sure) are embarrassed about sounding Canadian because of a fear that they would be deemed lesser or unequal to Americans - Many Canadians trivialize our history rather than celebrate and/or commemorate it - When describing what a Canadian is to others, we often have difficulty describing who we are without referring to Americans and what aspects of American culture we are not (i.e. we don't carry guns everywhere we go, we are more polite than Americans, etc.) It would be a stretch to conclude that our own neuroses are undermining ourselves as a nation. Ask yourself why do many of us think about ourselves in these ways? |
Author: | 2goto1 [ Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:epub DRM?! |
mirhagk @ Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:17 am wrote: The only thing that sets our 2 cultures apart are the different cultures that settled here after initial european settlement
Our cultures diverged mostly because Canada didn't rebel against the crown, unlike the Americans. That was probably the biggest turning point in our history. Canada fought to remain a part of the crown (with the support of the French and Aboriginals) and defended our right to that choice against the Americans. Americans fought to become an independent republic. Funny how Americans fought for that yet at many points in history wanted to take away our nation's rights to make our own independent choices (similar to what they took away from many US states). I think that was one of the main catalysts for the Americans giving up on taking over Canada. Fast forward to today, and our historical differences matter very little. We're both two highly desirable nations for immigrants, and have good pretty relationships with one another. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
So basically your saying that we should become proud to be canadians, more patriotic, make sure we keep our accent, and be proud of regardless of our feelings for it, and call everyone else evil for trying to push their culture on us. Basically we should act like the stereotypical yankee instead of the polite Canadian........ And that's how to protect our culture? Also that list of characteristics you described, describe very few people I know. I wish some of them described more (patriosm leads to blind ignorant love for your country, which was one of the 4 major factors for the first world war, and a huge factor in world war 2 as well), but for the most part people I know are proud to be Canadian, and fight american culture (other than entertainment). If you can provide some studies to prove your point, then go ahead, otherwise your point is merely a hypothesis (and a weak one at that) |
Author: | 2goto1 [ Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Not saying any of what you concluded nor am I saying anything about how to behave. I'm simply observing that it's plausible that there is a conspiracy by the US to create a 51st state - Canada. I know it's way off topic from the original epub DRM but since the conversation swayed to the topic of the US trying to ram more laws down Canadians throats, I thought it reasonably tangentially related ![]() I think there is enough ample evidence past and present to prove it plausible, with even the slightest bit of extracurricular reading. History speaks for itself. And as we're one of the most resource rich countries in the world, and as Arctic ice shelves are melting faster than tweenie Bieber fans' hearts, and as the US is one of the largest consumers of resources in the world, there are enough reasons to make it plausible. |
Author: | mirhagk [ Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:epub DRM?! |
Oh yes it's plausible. It's also plausible that every air particle in the room you in could suddenly head to one corner of the room leaving you no oxygen. It's just that the probability is so low it's a situation that's barely worth discussing other than out of casual interest, and definitely not something to be concerned about. |