Computer Science Canada

Mac On a Laptop
Author:  mirhagk [ Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Mac On a Laptop
So my girlfriend recently bought a pretty good computer (christmas 2009), and now she finds out that she needs a mac for school (they say teaching programs for macs are exclusive and much better).

I am looking into purchasing the OS itself, and attempting to install it on her computer, I figured spending $50 and even a day of flipping out trying to get it to work is still much cheaper than the $1500 needed for any decent mac. I know that the newest macs are all intel, they even use the same chipset (the i series), so I am to understand that it is definetly possible to install it.

What I would like to know is what are the hardware incompatibilities, for instance I'm not sure if she has the i-series (although it wouldn't be more than 1 series before that), and will things like the graphics card (its an AMD), her wireless card, webcam etc still work? I am also unsure about the legality of it (I know Canada generally takes a stance that a company can't tell you that you can't do what you want with the product, but not sure if this applies). I will update later with exact specs, but for now if anyone knows of any sites that explain how to do this/list hardware requirements/compatibilities, or provide drivers it'd be greatly appreciated.

Also I REALLY hope to get it working as a dual-boot (since her using the OS for everyday things will frustrate me when she has questions about how to do things). Perhaps I can look into boot camp or w/e since she has a valid windows key.
Author:  ProgrammingFun [ Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mac On a Laptop
Let's clear something up: Installing OS X on any non-apple device is illegal in every form (I am pretty sure) so to continue, your sense of being a law-abiding person must be checked at the door.
Why would you purchase the OS when it's illegal to install it where you want anyways?

Make your life easier...

    Go into BIOS and check if the hardware supports hardware virtualization. If yes, enable it.
    Get VMware Player (free) or VMware Workstation (better, and free with pirate discount).
    Get a pre-cooked OS X already configured for VMware.
    Get the VMware patch.
    Start the program and you're good to go


I can't link here but you can get all that in one package. With VMware, you can treat OS X like any Windows program. In addition, you are given options to toggle tools such as webcam between the two OS-es. The best part is that if your girlfriend screws something up on OS X, it won't kill the laptop.

Otherwise, if you really want to dual-boot, this guide is your friend.
Author:  andrew. [ Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
ProgrammingFun @ Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:12 pm wrote:
Let's clear something up: Installing OS X on any non-apple device is illegal in every form (I am pretty sure) so to continue, your sense of being a law-abiding person must be checked at the door.


Actually, I'm not sure if it's illegal or just violates Apple's EULA. In any case, most likely at least one of the components won't work (Wifi, webcam, etc.) so you probably don't want to install it on a non-Apple computer. And running in a VM will be very slow compared to running it natively; she may not be able to do her work (depending on what she does).

My recommendation is to get a real Mac. They're totally worth it. No, it doesn't cost $1500 for a "decent" Mac. I'm in computer engineering at UW and I currently use the 13" i5. It's fast enough for all I do. If money is an issue, if she's going to a university, Apple has a student discount. I got $100 off my Mac when I bought it and right now they're offering an additional $100 in iTunes credit (so for the base 13" MacBook Pro, it'll cost you $1150 and you'll get a $100 gift card). Anyway, if it's still too expensive, check out Apple's Refurb store or something like Kijiji or Craigslist.

TL;DR: Don't waste your time trying to install OS X on a non-Apple computer. Buy a real Mac instead, either with the student discount or used/refurb.
Author:  DemonWasp [ Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Try to find out what program they use and why it's "only available on Macs". There's a decent chance that someone along the line is a dirty liar and the program, or an equivalent, works just fine. $1000 is a lot to spend on a brand new computer when you already own a perfectly fine one.
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
DemonWasp @ 2011-08-28, 6:54 pm wrote:
Try to find out what program they use and why it's "only available on Macs". There's a decent chance that someone along the line is a dirty liar and the program, or an equivalent, works just fine. $1000 is a lot to spend on a brand new computer when you already own a perfectly fine one.

Unfortunately, I find that usually using an alternative program causes headaches when following instructions, especially if you're not already familiar with the program and not 'tech-savvy'. Heck, sometimes they purposefully make it difficult...
Author:  rdrake [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mac On a Laptop
Few things:
  1. Installing OS X on a non-Mac is a pain. If your components are even slightly different it usually does not work. Even if it does, the most difficult things to get working are graphics and wireless (that is to say, there's a near zero chance that they will work properly).
  2. Chances are they are filthy liars and the applications are available for other platforms as well. Find out the names of them, do some research, and see if there are alternatives. In addition, most universities/colleges have a Mac lab where she could do her assignments. In the case of using alternatives, she can double-check that her assignment submission is correct in the real program prior to submission that way.
  3. Breaking the EULA shouldn't be illegal here. It is, however, a bit fuzzier in the US where this server is hosted. Thus discussions that are on the fuzzy side of the law should be avoided on the forums.
Most people have already stated the above, just thought I'd add some more weight to those who made correct points.
Author:  mirhagk [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:22 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
@andrew you proved my point, $1150 for what is essentially a netbook. Pretty sure that running a virtual machine would still be faster than a netbook.

@demonwasp, yes I do want to look into that, as I doubt it's software developed by apple, and if it isn't some company is REALLY limiting it's market if it only makes it for macs.

@programmingfun actually a vm is not a bad idea, it'll be slow yes, but the software is probably pretty lightweight if it is to run on a mac. Also I am 99.9999% sure it's not illegal. I actually talked to Apple support, and while Apple support is not allowed to actually help anyone (they are only allowed to link to their site, or say "wait for a patch"), they told me it wasn't illegal, but it was definetly not supported.

Also I believe in the US they voted that jailbreaking was legal since the company cannot restrict what you do with the device.

EDIT: http://osxdaily.com/2010/07/26/is-jailbreaking-your-iphone-illegal-not-anymore/
Author:  Tony [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
mirhagk @ Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:22 am wrote:
Also I believe in the US they voted that jailbreaking was legal since the company cannot restrict what you do with the device.

EDIT: http://osxdaily.com/2010/07/26/is-jailbreaking-your-iphone-illegal-not-anymore/

jailbreaking a _phone_ device. The same ruling was attempted to be applied to PS3 in geohot's case, but the case was dropped before a precedent was set.
Author:  mirhagk [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Yes but this isn't even circumventing their security, it's merely installing their OS on a machine which they don't support.
Author:  Insectoid [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
the software is probably pretty lightweight if it is to run on a mac.


Can you back up this claim?


It isn't worth it to install os x on a non-apple computer unless you desperately need it, AND you are prepared to put in a lot of effort AND you are capable of dealing with it should something go wrong. If your girlfriend isn't all of these things (she's at most the first case only, if even) she shouldn't even consider it.

Quote:
Yes but this isn't even circumventing their security, it's merely installing their OS on a machine which they don't support.


I agree with this. A EULA isn't law. If you break the terms of the EULA, Apple can terminate your services. Jail-breaking your phone, while legal, is against Apple's EULA, and while bricking your phone is harsh they are perfectly within their rights to disable updates, block access to the app store, and whatever else they want except terminate your telephone services (and even that they may be allowed to do. And if they aren't, they'll do it anyway via bricking).

rdrake- we should be freely allowed to discuss installing os x on non-apple machines. There is no law against it in Canada or the US, therefore it is legal. Until a court decides it is illegal we should be allowed to discuss it.
Author:  mirhagk [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
@insectoid, what I mean that if the school did not tell students they need a non-netbook mac, then the software is most likely lightweight enough to run on a mac netbook, meaning it's pretty lightweight (and not something like photoshop). Besides her schooling is for being a teacher, so I can't imagine it would be something so CPU intensive as media editing software.

Also as long as the effort required is not more than 150 hours she still saves money (since 150xminimum wage is approximately the price of a mac)
Author:  Insectoid [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
the school did not tell students they need a non-netbook mac


Apple makes netbooks. They're just not a part of the Mac product line. Apple calls them 'iPads'. There are no mac netbooks. Why would the school need to specify that you need a powerful mac, when the new Air is beasty enough to anything short of rendering 3D video in real time. Do schools ever specify the minimum system requirements required of your computer in a given course? No. Sure, if you're doing autoCAD or something you absolutely must have access to the lab or have a computer that can run it.

Either way, I wouldn't install OS X on a computer that wasn't manufactured by Apple, that doesn't belong to me. The level of stress that can create for the other party is not worth it.

Quote:
Also as long as the effort required is not more than 150 hours she still saves money (since 150xminimum wage is approximately the price of a mac)


I've considered this idea many times in many situations in the past. It doesn't hold up. Time doesn't hold a constant value. I'd rather have a working mac out of the box for $1200 than spend 50 hours forcing a hackintosh to work. Unless ofc my objective is to create a hackintosh (in this case the objective is to have a computer running os x, which is very different).

I would ultimately wait until start of term and find out exactly what software the class is expected to use before bothering myself with this. Odds are most of the class won't have their own Apple computer either.
Author:  mirhagk [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
They say that the mac is absolutely required 3rd year, (and time for me holds the value of how much I would get paid for doing work doing that time).

And when I said netbook, I meant their 13" i3 computers, of which some netbooks beat. I may go with the virtual machine option if I can get to work/if it's legal (I will buy a valid copy of the OS for it)
Author:  Prince Pwn [ Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Look up tonymacx86 and check out insanelymac. Those are two great hackintosh communities where you can see what components are hackintosh compatible, and which kexts or dstd hacks you'll need to apply. As for legality, it's only against Apple's EULA so don't worry.
Author:  andrew. [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
mirhagk @ Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:22 am wrote:
@andrew you proved my point, $1150 for what is essentially a netbook. Pretty sure that running a virtual machine would still be faster than a netbook.

I don't see how a MacBook Pro qualifies as a netbook. I've never seen a netbook with the same specs as a Pro. I may just be out of it, so please show me a netbook with the same specs as a Pro for the price. Also, running a VM will not be faster than running natively on a Pro. You should go to Best Buy/Futureshop/Apple Store and actually try a Mac before making up stuff about it.
Author:  mirhagk [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
andrew. @ Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:45 pm wrote:
mirhagk @ Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:22 am wrote:
@andrew you proved my point, $1150 for what is essentially a netbook. Pretty sure that running a virtual machine would still be faster than a netbook.

I don't see how a MacBook Pro qualifies as a netbook. I've never seen a netbook with the same specs as a Pro. I may just be out of it, so please show me a netbook with the same specs as a Pro for the price. Also, running a VM will not be faster than running natively on a Pro. You should go to Best Buy/Futureshop/Apple Store and actually try a Mac before making up stuff about it.


Alright here's the i5 13" mac, no graphics 320GB HDD and 4GB RAM. for $1250. Mind you all the pieces put together would cost about $400.

Now here is one notebook (slightly larger than a netbook 12", but still only $400) that comes pretty close to the hardware specs. The trouble is that it is probably the highest end laptop I could possibly find that does not have a graphics card in it.
http://canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_366&item_id=040703

Since that one is not up to par with everything in the apple computer, here's one that surpasses it's specs. Trouble is that it has a graphics card, so it's slightly more than I anticipated at $700. Now if you were to knock off the graphics card and downgrade the RAM and harddrive your looking at around $500.
http://canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=710_577_367&item_id=039913

If you'd like I can find you each and every piece the mac has (other than the mac only features, the things they design which aren't compatible with anything and really aren't useful like thunderbolt) and I can show you the cost is less than half, and probably around a third of what apple charges you (meanwhile most other laptops would cost roughly the same or more to put together yourself).

I have tried macs, many times thank you. In fact did an entire course in school on a mac, it was media editing, and I saw first hand that it's nowhere near as good as getting some of the professional programs such as the ones adobe makes.

Oh and actually running a VM on a machine that is the same price as the mac actually would run pretty close and probably faster than natively.
Author:  Tony [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
There are a number of fallacies in that comparison, which mostly come down to "there's much more to owning a machine than the number of gigabytes of ram that is has".

- quality of assembly?
- quality of support (repairs et. al.)
- quality of peripherals? Mac touchpads are _amazing_. So are their keyboards. I previously had an external (USB) keyboard that duplicated the Mac laptop keyboard feel; most other keyboards just feel too bulky.
- what happens when someone trips over the power cord? Do both machines have the magnetic plug to prevent a disaster? Sure, the cost raw parts is negligible, but the value offered here is so much more.
- should both machines fall anyway, how well would the one without a unibody fare?
Author:  mirhagk [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
If you care about support, or quality of the body of the machine, you'd go with ASUS. Mac support employees are only allowed to direct you to parts of their website or tell you to wait for upgrades, whereas windows support is not only provided by many different companies, and many different websites provide additional support.

Asus also gives a 2 yr manufacturer warranty and a 1 yr accident warranty (which includes dropping it). they make most of their laptops out of aluminum, and the gaming ones have absolutely amazing air cooling systems.


Yes there is more to a computer than just ram and processor, but a track pad and keyboard and other various things do not make a difference between $500 and $1200, so either way apple is ripping people off.
Author:  Tony [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
"most" does not necessary mean "this cheapest one I found"; "the gaming ones" are certainly not applicable to this comparison.

The exact merits of warranty could spawn a dedicated thread, but ultimately I'd like my machine to survive a fall, rather than go through a repair/replacement process.

As I've already mentioned, there's a difference between "cost of raw parts" and "value to end user". Perhaps we just have a different value system, in which case this argument is pointless, as we'll be talking about different things.

In some ways it reminds me that I'd really prefer to not live in a flood-zone in a hurricane region, but hey -- a bunch of people do, and they can probably get the same number of square feet for "cheaper".
Author:  andrew. [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
I've never used Asus tech support, but I've used Apple's and I have to say that they have, by far, the best customer service I've ever seen. They were actually helpful in solving my problem, unlike most other companies that just read a script.

Anyways, like Tony said, you can't really compare them. The first laptop you said isn't even close to the Pro in power. The CPU is a first-gen ultra-low-voltage i3 and is far from the MBP i5 in performance. The second laptop isn't even a netbook. It's a full-sized laptop like the MacBook Pro. Yeah it's cheaper, but I believe that "you get what you pay for" applies in this case in terms of quality, like Tony said above.

Maybe I'm just biased because I prefer MacBooks to most regular Windows laptops. I just think that I'm getting superior build quality, customer service and support, and a great OS for the extra money, in addition to other things.
Author:  Insectoid [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
probably faster than natively


I've been on this world nineteen years, and this may be the stupidest statement I've ever heard.

Quote:
it's nowhere near as good as getting some of the professional programs such as the ones adobe makes


Photoshop runs natively on OS X. AutoDesk runs natively on OS X (though the mac version sucks). On what are you basing this claim?

Quote:
If you care about support, or quality of the body of the machine, you'd go with ASUS.


I've worked on a lot of Asus machines, and the quality is good, but it doesn't achieve even remotely the quality of Apple construction.

Quote:
sus also gives a 2 yr manufacturer warranty and a 1 yr accident warranty (which includes dropping it). they make most of their laptops out of aluminum, and the gaming ones have absolutely amazing air cooling systems.


AppleCare is pretty sweet too. And last I checked, Apple didn't target gamers.

Quote:
Mac support employees are only allowed to direct you to parts of their website or tell you to wait for upgrades, whereas windows support is not only provided by many different companies, and many different websites provide additional support.


I've never had trouble finding support for my laptop. My OS is guaranteed to support my hardware. My hardware is guaranteed to have drivers. Number of times I've had to look for drivers for my MBP? 0. Number of times I've had to search for drivers for my Windows PC? Every. Single. Time. that I've had to re-install Windows. Oh, I used to work in a tech shop, so let's include everything. Percentage of macs that I've worked on, that I had to find drivers for after re-installing the OS? 0. Percentage of Windows-based machines I've had to find drivers for after re-installing? 100%.

As for repairs & whatnot- my city has like eight different stores that service macs.


As for support for installing an OS on a machine it was not designed to run on? Windows isn't supported on iPads. Go try that, and see how much trouble it is, before complaining about lack of support for OS X on a Compaq.





If all you need is to run program X, and you absolutely have to use this program, and this program only runs on os x, then by all means set up a VM or a hackintosh. Just don't ever bash OS X based on this experience, because the hackintosh experience is not the mac experience. Without the trackpad, and the quality of Apple-designed components (the shell, the trackpad, the keyboard, etc) it's just not a mac. I'll pay $1200 for a laptop with $500 specs, if that means I get Apple hardware.


I know you love playing Devil's Advocate mirhagk, but 9 times out of 10 you go too far and make yourself look like an idiot. Learn to debate and more importantly, learn to admit that you're wrong.
Author:  mirhagk [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Insectoid the photoshop point was that adobe makes better media editing software then what comes pre-installed on a mac, so the biggest claim you hear from people "Mac's are so much better for media editing" is invalid because it's the 3rd party software that is the best solution.

And I'm sorry but you guys can't sit there and tell me that Apple is offering good prices for it's products. The linux/windows market is many companies competing for customers, whereas the mac world has no competition (if you like the mac os you have no choice but to pay there price).

My biggest problems with macs come from 2 things, first of all, regardless of whether you may prefer to buy a $2000 mac vs a $2000 pc, is the hardware+support actually worth anything near that amount? Or is it little cheap things that make macs better, and therefore able to charge twice as much.

My 2nd problem is disregard for compatibility. I know windows is bad for this, and even some linux distro's can throw away concern for compatibility, but at least other hardware manufacturers make an attempt at making things backward compatible, or make an attempt at supporting older systems. Why make a new monitor cable design that noone else supports? Why make Thunderbolt, a system that is slower than USB 3.0, and is incompatible with 90% of the market? A lot of these things could be argued that they were done like this because they are better, but only marginally so, and other companies could make better products too if they disregarded compatibility. I do know however they make a lot of money off of selling their own accessories, such as their monitor cable to VGA converter cable.
Author:  Tony [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
I thought we were talking about machine prices, but sure... lets talk about pre-installed software and cables instead.

If you want to look at the pre-installed media editing software, then I guess the OS X package is competing against... Windows' MS Paint?

Thunderbolt: Which USB 3.0 specs are you looking at? I'm reading USB -- up to 5 Gbit/s. Thunderbolt is very much faster than that
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-20036033-76.html
Quote:

Thunderbolt currently runs with a top speed of 10Gbps. Since there are two wire pairs, and the system is bidirectional, a single cable can have up to 40Gbps coursing through it at its maximum theoretical capacity (20Gbps upstream and 20Gbps downstream). Intel says that those speeds will one day top 100Gbps in data throughput when it moves from a copper wire to optical fiber.

Besides, MBP still comes with as many USB ports as before. Thunderbolt just makes it future-compatible as well.

Is there a high profit margin on accessory cables? No doubt. Just look at Monster cables, which are laughably expensive. There is also an entire industry for making cheap cheap cables. Even the Mac converter cables (though not Thunderbolt, as those are complicated and involve more than just wires). I've got mini-dvi to HDMI for a couple of dollars from some 3rd party seller. It is bulky, and the wire doesn't bend as nice as official Mac wires, but hey -- it's there. Though now we are talking about 3rd parties, and apparently that
mirhagk @ Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:58 pm wrote:
is invalid because it's the 3rd party ...

So I'm not sure what your argument there even was. ASUS doesn't appear to sell any 1st-party wires from their website at all.
Author:  Insectoid [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
the photoshop point was that adobe makes better media editing software then what comes pre-installed on a mac


Shit, MS Paint is better than what comes with a mac. I had to download what is essentially the mac version of paint (not from Apple or Microsoft but that's what it is) just to do extremely basic editing. If macs came with Photoshop they'd be a lot more impressive than they are.

By the way, when did Windows start shipping with Adobe Professional Suite? I must have missed that press release.

I don't understand why you value your hard drive numbers but not your keyboard and trackpad. If I have a choice between a machine with an aluminum trackpad with a scroll symbol on the side that's the size of a stamp and only works with 1 finger and a 2TB SSD, and a machine with a massive glass super-accurate 5-finger trackpad with gestures integrated into the OS and a 120GB hard drive, I'd take the latter.

Power vs experience. The iPad may be kinda underpowered compared to other tablets, but it has hands-down the best interface - don't even try to dispute that. Other than heavily discounted Touchpads it's also the cheapest tablet, but that's beside the point.

Apple spends billions on their designs. IBM clones don't design shit, they just pick the parts they want and design a case that everything fits into.

EDIT: Damnit! Tony beat me to it! Oh well. Gives me time to add a quote.

Quote:
Mac's are so much better for media editing


Nobody has made this claim in years. A given system is better at whatever the 3rd party devs decide to write for it. Back in the day, devs were writing media software for mac and games for the PC. Now every OS is good at pretty much everything (Windows still owns the gaming scene, but advancements in Wine are breaking that claim). The question now is, which OS is better at being an OS?
Author:  mirhagk [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
Tony @ Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:34 pm wrote:
mirhagk @ Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:58 pm wrote:
is invalid because it's the 3rd party ...

So I'm not sure what your argument there even was. ASUS doesn't appear to sell any 1st-party wires from their website at all.


Tony I'm not even sure if you read my post..... That was taken way more out of context than anything I've ever seen (including "money is the root of all evil"). I said that the specific argument that macs are better for media editing is invalid because 3rd party software will almost always trump any pre-installed software. And good 3rd part software generally doesn't limit itself to just one system, and therefore can be run on both.

Your arguments about MS paint are completely pointless, because that wasn't my point at all. Here I'll put it my arguments in code so that no one gets confused about what I'm saying.

if (thirdPartySoftware>preinstalled && thirdPartySoftware.crossPlatform == true)
{
string[] order = SortByBestForMediaEditing(Mac,Windows,Linux);
}

The result of the sort is undefined.
Author:  Insectoid [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
the specific argument that macs are better for media editing is invalid


I don't think anyone in the thread has made this claim to begin with, so why are you busying yourself debunking it?

Quote:
In fact did an entire course in school on a mac, it was media editing, and I saw first hand that it's nowhere near as good as getting some of the professional programs such as the ones adobe makes


This is the first reference to such a claim I can find. Oh, hang on, you authored that.


While we're on the subject, I dunno why people say Windows is better at games. It doesn't even come with Pinball anymore. Macs come with 3D chess!


Seriously, go join a debate club or something.
Author:  crossley7 [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
I just sow this so wanted to throw my 2 cents in. Bear in mind this is from the point of view of someone entering grade 12 with a small budget.

I recently was looking for a laptop for a relatively good price and ended up with a final decision of Macbook Air (11 or 13 inch both were on the list), a dell inspiron 14r and 1 other laptop I can't remember off hand. Ok, Air vs 14 inch laptop isn't fair for specs particularly, but even still, for 550 bucks cheaper than a decent mac air (>64GB hard drive) I got an i5, and 6 GB RAM and a slower, but larger 7200 RPM 500 GB hard drive. Based purely on those specs it is no contest, the dell is better.

However, once you include size, weight, aesthetics (not super important but nice), boot up time, trackpad, keyboard and all those OTHER things except price the edge goes to the mac. The only spot that the inspiron has the advantage is 2 USB 3.0 ports vs a USB and thunderbolt.

I don't really know which truly is better overall as it depends on needs and specific interests of the buyer, but I decided to get the inspiron because of price and because for some reason I don't particularly like the mac os.

That is just budget PC vs budget mac in my opinion and from experience of living in a home that almost runs completely on mac.

Overall Comparison
Mac vs PC
Power (RAM,Hard Drive,processor) - PC
Usability (keyboard,trackpad,screen res) - Mac
Price - PC
Ports - PC
Headaches/Annoyances - Mac
Overall - dead tie. Mac vs PC is pure preference imo

It's your choice. Power vs. Comfort... not to mention the standard SSD

In your case I would likely run a virtual machine based on what i have seen of them. Mind you the 1 I saw was on a i7 quad core macbook pro I believe it isn't a fair contest but the speed difference isn't overly significant to be a big issue. That is if you are comfortable with the additional annoyances of PC computers
Author:  rdrake [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mac On a Laptop
Since for some reason this thread has turned into a Mac vs. PC debate, I suppose I'll throw some thoughts in.

Despite having lower specs than most other notebooks, my 11.6" MacBook Air is surprisingly speedy. I'd attribute the speed to the built-in SSD. It sleeps and resumes within seconds which is pretty impressive. The trackpad can only be described as "godlike." The screen is subpar compared to my other notebook and the keyboard, while not horrible, is also inferior. It's much less comfortable and responsive than a Thinkpad.

As for software, I had to install some things to make it usable for daily use; specifically homebrew and the developer tools. The software situation is nice as a lot of commercial support exists for OS X, many indie applications are of high quality, and you still get the unix tools and environment you'd expect. Trying to turn Windows into a similar environment is a nightmare.

Whether it's worth the money is a matter of opinion. Saying "product X is better than product Y because it has better specs for way cheaper" is a ridiculous argument which disregards many other important attributes of the machine. As noted above, build quality and support are more important than you'd think. In particular, when you actually rely on a computer to make a living and any problems with that machine cost you time (and thus money), those properties matter all that much more.

Personally I still prefer my Thinkpad with Linux on it.
Author:  Insectoid [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
The line does get fuzzied when you start looking at the Air. I don't know how fragile the recent Air is compared to other standard laptops but the original was very delicate. Also, when I look for ultraportables, the Air isn't my first choice, by a long shot.

Ultraportables, to me, are small notebooks where a full-size laptop is a large binder. I don't need a huge screen 'cause I won't be doing much at a time (either taking notes or moving those notes to my full-size laptop). I wouldn't pull out an Air or a Pro or any full-size laptop on a bus, but a tiny netbook is no problem.

I guess I just prefer the desktop (or desk-locked laptop) + netbook computing paradigm, as opposed to a fully mobile workstation. Some people just prefer an expensive, powerful, delicate, full-size yet extremely light and portable laptop over a cheap replaceable netbook that is only good for taking notes and web browsing.


I'm curious as to what would happen if you took some average people, explained the parallels between a physical file system and a digital one and basic mouse & keyboard use, give them computers with different operating systems (ranging from win98 to win8, macOS to os x (are they the same thing? I'm pretty sure os x refers specifically to 10.x but I'm not sure if macOS refers to all Apple desktop systems or just pre-os x), some old versions over various flavors of Linux to the newest LTS. Which users would report the most ease of use?
Author:  crossley7 [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mac On a Laptop
rdrake @ Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:30 pm wrote:
Despite having lower specs than most other notebooks, my 11.6" MacBook Air is surprisingly speedy. I'd attribute the speed to the built-in SSD. It sleeps and resumes within seconds which is pretty impressive. The trackpad can only be described as "godlike."


Those are probably the main reason anyone goes with those computers. Almost got me to get one even though I can't stand macs. Reason I didn't was the always available option of swapping a hard drive out at some point and that without the mac os a trackpad isn't _quite_ as important to have. (I wasn't going to run it anyway)

rdrake @ Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:30 pm wrote:
Whether it's worth the money is a matter of opinion. Saying "product X is better than product Y because it has better specs for way cheaper" is a ridiculous argument which disregards many other important attributes of the machine.


Ah, why not. Razz If it is for work purposes obviously better x factors are worth the money, but for other purposes those factors aren't always as important
Author:  Insectoid [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
Those are probably the main reason anyone goes with those computers. Almost got me to get one even though I can't stand macs. Reason I didn't was the always available option of swapping a hard drive out at some point and that without the mac os a trackpad isn't _quite_ as important to have. (I wasn't going to run it anyway)


You can totally swap a hard drive in a mac. You can even remove the CD drive from a MBP and put a second hard drive in. Sure, the trackpad isn't that good if you haven't got OS X installed, why would you ever buy a mac, and not use the included OS? I mean, if you get a new machine and install Linux on the old one for fun, sure, but by then you don't care about that trackpad anyway.

But I agree. Without OS X, most of the hardware design features on Apple hardware is useless. But [i]that's why apple designs its own hardware[i]. If Apple didn't design the sweet trackpad AND the operating system, they couldn't integrate it into the OS as deeply as they did. If Windows 8 comes with highly integrated gesture technology, 3rd party developers would *have* to release multi-touch trackpads. Apple hardware and software is seamlessly integrated, so its hard to discuss the hardware without the software. You can probably imagine that OS X without the hardware integration (ie hackintosh) isn't nearly as good.
Author:  mirhagk [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
SSD is possible to get in any laptop, it's another $100-200 to drop, which still doesn't compare to the mac's extra cost. The addition of the SSD will negate any speed boosts that a stock mac has over a stock PC.

Personally I only ever use a trackpad if I absoultely have to, I carry around a mouse for my laptop, and the trackpad is only used if I can't fit the mouse anywhere. And even then, as I get better with computers, I use the pointer less and less.

Actually probably the best option for harddrive is what I have in my machine. I have 2 hybrid drives, which are part SSD, and part HDD, giving me speeds close to pure SSD, while still allowing me to have a full amount of memory. I am looking into raiding them, because raided hybrid drives perform nearly as well as SSD's, so it'd be like having 1TB of SSD in my laptop.

The problem with the Mac vs PC argument is that future shop doesn't sell PC's that are high end enough to compare to macs price-wise (except hp, and I don't even wanna look at another hp). If the average user was able to get off their lazy butts and go to places like canada computers, they'd find that a $1500 PC is beastly fast compared to a $1500 mac (which is still kinda lower end)
Author:  crossley7 [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Yeah, I know about the hard drive swapping options, but if I put in a ssd and take out the mac os, then the advantages of the air are less. Which means that the superior specs and price are worth it. I can match the hard drive no problem for a similar total cost.

I sometimes wish that hardware was a bit better for the windows OS sometimes. It would really give better comparisons but at the same time the uniqueness of mac hardware is interesting in that NOTHING else uses things like thunderbolt and the magnetic power attachment. Windows has the advantage that things are more readily available for it at the moment
Author:  Insectoid [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
I only ever use a trackpad if I absoultely have to


I know you've used macs, but were those iMacs/pros or Macbooks/pros? 'cause honestly, if you force yourself to use an Apple trackpad for a few weeks (or even a few hours) you'll most likely love it to death (even if you still hate OS X and macs in general).

I never, ever use the trackpad, when I'm not using an Apple computer. It's slow, unresponsive, inaccurate, single-touch and just gross. The manufactures had to include one, so that's what they did. Apple doesn't just include things- it makes you want to use them.
Author:  Insectoid [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
I sometimes wish that hardware was a bit better for the windows OS sometimes. It would really give better comparisons but at the same time the uniqueness of mac hardware is interesting in that NOTHING else uses things like thunderbolt and the magnetic power attachment. Windows has the advantage that things are more readily available for it at the moment


Any company that wants to can put this into their hardware. It's just too expensive for them to develop. Apple can afford it (due to high prices I guess, rofl). But it can be a bad thing. I have a firewire port in my laptop that I've never used. I've never owned a peripheral that used firewire (well, I had a video camera but it didn't come with a firewire cable...it had firewire on the camera end and USB on the computer end. Doesn't help).

Of course we wish Windows hardware was better. A lot of it can't be done without help from Windows. OS X is being designed with a trackpad and gestures as the core interface- Apple wants to phase out mice. Windows, however, is designed purely for use with a mouse so a lot of the integration can't happen (see above).
Author:  mirhagk [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Wait what are you talking about insectoid? Multi-touch is for PC's too. I have it on my laptop (although i turned it off, zooming in and out doesnt need to be done quickly on a full size device, and ctrl and + works pretty good, and it annoys me if I accidently do it). You can argue that the hardware for the trackpad isn't very good (for instance the iPod touch has an amazing touch screen, and multi touch is useful for it because of it's small screen), but windows supports it, and it's been pretty standard for laptops recently (although again, I don't see a reason why rotating things or zooming in and out is that important on a full size device)

The reason why PC's don't include phenomal parts at stores like future shop(read shops for non-tech savvy users), people are either cheap, or somehow believe painting parts white makes them better.

PS I love the one apple slogan about the parts being made for the OS, cuz you know intel was like "We should make the i series for macs" and then windows was like, "Oh I guess we should use this, and sort of support it"
Author:  DemonWasp [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
crossley7 @ Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:26 pm wrote:
... NOTHING else uses things like thunderbolt and the magnetic power attachment.


Apple has a patent on the MagSafe plugs, even though there's demonstrable prior art (for deep-fat fryers, etc). Other manufacturers cannot produce an equivalent device, because Apple doesn't license the technology. Worse, Apple actually makes really low-quality power supplies, mostly because they refuse to put wear protectors on the ends (but there are plenty of other reasons, too).

Thunderbolt is an interface Apple developed with Intel; it won't be generally available until around March 2012, when Intel releases their Ivy Bridge implementation (so sayeth Wikipedia).
Author:  Insectoid [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
intel was like "We should make the i series for macs"


Er, what? Can you point me to an article about this? As far as I know the i series was the successor to the Core 2 series.
Author:  mirhagk [ Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
insectoid, please read this article for me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
Author:  ProgrammingFun [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
mirhagk @ Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:52 pm wrote:
insectoid, please read this article for me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Mirhagk scores a +1 (actually I shouldn't say that, Google+ will prbly trademark it) for paying back Insectoid. Laughing
Author:  Insectoid [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
mirhagk @ Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:52 pm wrote:
insectoid, please read this article for me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm


fuuuuuuu!
Author:  andrew. [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
Insectoid @ Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:34 pm wrote:
I'm curious as to what would happen if you took some average people, explained the parallels between a physical file system and a digital one and basic mouse & keyboard use, give them computers with different operating systems (ranging from win98 to win8, macOS to os x (are they the same thing? I'm pretty sure os x refers specifically to 10.x but I'm not sure if macOS refers to all Apple desktop systems or just pre-os x), some old versions over various flavors of Linux to the newest LTS. Which users would report the most ease of use?
The problem with this is that, from my experience, most people are used to Windows and are comfortable with it. For example, my dad recently bought a Mac Mini and he doesn't like OS X at all, simply because it's different than Windows. I think the same would go for Linux as well. If it was somebody completely new to computers, then it's a different story, but it's extremely rare these days to find somebody without any computer experience (except maybe some old people, but they probably wouldn't be helpful in an experiment like this [it would take my grandma forever to learn how to open files and stuff]).
Author:  mirhagk [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
alright let's do studies on babies then.
Author:  Insectoid [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
it would take my grandma forever to learn how to open files and stuff


That's the idea. Does any OS actually provide a more intuitive experience? Obviously most people will prefer what they grew up on (it's hard to switch operating systems if you've used one exclusively your whole life). Grandparents are the perfect people to try something like this on. I read an article on Gizmodo where an old guy who'd never used a computer was given a machine with multiple web browsers installed and he used them all and when asked what he preferred, they all sucked.

You could probably include tablets in the OS experiment. I'd bet a grandma would have far more success with an iPad than a full computer (but I dunno for sure).
Author:  mirhagk [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
I dunno, old people seem not to be very comfortable with touch screens.
Author:  Insectoid [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
mirhagk @ Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:41 am wrote:
I dunno, old people seem not to be very comfortable with touch screens.


Dear god, I hope you're being sarcastic again.
Author:  mirhagk [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
No I wasn't, probably just my experience but most people above the age of 30 I know seem very awkward with a touch screen, and don't like it. I don't know any people over the age of 60 that have tried it though, so it could be different for them.

Sorry should've made it more clear that was my personal experience and not scientific fact.
Author:  andrew. [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Once I took my grandma to the Apple store and showed her the iPads. She's never really used a computer before, but somehow she knew how to flick through pictures and zoom in and out. She picked it up really quickly.
Author:  crossley7 [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
mirhagk @ Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:00 am wrote:
No I wasn't, probably just my experience but most people above the age of 30 I know seem very awkward with a touch screen, and don't like it. I don't know any people over the age of 60 that have tried it though, so it could be different for them.


I don't know about others, but my dad has a blackberry torch and an ipad. I'm pretty sure he is comfortable with touch screens. But I would be shocked if my grandparents understood how to use touch screens... at times they can barely use a computer
Author:  mirhagk [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
I think the problem is that even old people have computer experience, and are experienced with either computers, keyboards, typewriters (keyboards), or some other point of pointing device used to interact instead of a touch screen.
Author:  Insectoid [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Quote:
I would be shocked if my grandparents understood how to use touch screens... at times they can barely use a computer


A touch-screen is far, far more intuitive than a mouse & keyboard. Computers are hard. Tablets aren't (well, iPads aren't hard. I haven't used other tablets).
Author:  DemonWasp [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
People in the age group 20-50 right now are probably the people who have had it drummed into them that you aren't supposed to touch the screen for the last few decades. There's going to be a natural inclination to not touch the screen after that kind of training, and it'll take a while for many of them (myself included) to overcome. And while touchscreens may be intuitive, I like my screens to be fingerprint-free.
Author:  mirhagk [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
I find touchscreens only really useful for smaller devices, a full sized touchscreen device (my friend's laptop) doesn't really benefit from it

and like demonWasp said, watching movies on a dirty screen kinda sucks.
Author:  Tony [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Mac On a Laptop
DemonWasp @ Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:07 pm wrote:
There's going to be a natural inclination to not touch the screen after that kind of training...

A lot of people in my age group (20+) have a natural reaction to attempt to touch my Kindle's screen (even though it is not a touchscreen). Then again, it might be my predominantly-technical crowd of people skewing the statistics again Razz
Author:  Insectoid [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Well, kindles do somewhat resemble tablets, don't they? I mean, if almost the entire surface of the device is a screen it screams touch screen, weather or not it is indeed a touch screen.


@Mirhagk- touch screen laptops are shit. It's true. It's not because touch screen interfaces suck, it's because there's no integration. You're just using your finger instead of a mouse to control the curser. The OS has to be designed with a touch screen in mind from the bottom up to work. So far Apple's the only company that does it right (they're also the only company that has access to the quality touch screens they use, at the prices they pay).
Author:  mirhagk [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Even so, tablets must remain small in order to be useful, and they must be flat. Try putting your tablet vertical and you will see the difficulty inherit with using vertical interfaces (the same reason mice and keyboards work horizontally)
Author:  Insectoid [ Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Mac On a Laptop
I don't think I've ever seen that particular xkcd 'till now. Thank you good sir, for a spectacular outburst of...what? That was funny, is what I was trying to say.

I should stop posting while intoxicated...

:


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