Computer Science Canada

Computer Science woes
Author:  Vaughan H. [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Computer Science woes
Hey there Comp Sci. community,


I'm looking into Computer Science as a career and have some various questions regarding computer science and Waterloo specifically. I've heard Waterloo is one of our best Computer Science university, and being about 30 minutes from home makes it very appealing. I'm looking into heading into Grade 12 with a 85, 87 average at most.

1) I realize it's my Grade 12 marks that are true impact here, but in terms of Early Admission is there anything I can do to help myself out here? 85 seems rather 'border-line' and from what I can tell, early admission is usually granted to those above the line.

2) While Waterloo would first pick, and I'm fairly confident come Year 12 I can get in, I'm keen on more closer solutions in the Waterloo area, that might even be closer to my area whilst still providing a decent education. Any suggestions? Please use facts and not a bias opinion, it would be appreciated.

(Note: Does completing a PLAR in Grade 11 Computer Science (ISC 3U) count for much?)

Thanks. Smile
Author:  Tony [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
1) The first round marks (midterms / first term) + AIF (additional information form) at the time of application will be your most contributing factors to an early admittance. They specifically check for CCC/Euclid too, but unless you've done them before, you can only checkmark the intention to write those (the results should be in by the final decision times though).

2) Kitchener-Waterloo area is also home to Wilfrid Laurier, and Conestoga College, but obviously those are nowhere near the same quality of CS education.
Author:  Vaughan H. [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
Did extremely well in CCC last year, intending to write it again. Also wrote Euclid this year, although poor performance as expected. That test is SOMETHING. Will a strong first term of Grade 12 help me out, then? (I'll only be taking 2 or 3 courses sadly as I have a PLAR and am ahead a credit)

2) I looked at both, I heard McMaster and Guelph weren't bad.
Author:  Tony [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
Yes, a strong first term will help, but even if you do get an early acceptance, keep in mind that those are conditional and you'd have to maintain your grades anyway.

2) If you are looking at UWaterloo quality, the downtown campus of the University of Toronto is a strong recommendation. Those two are deemed to be the top choices. Things get kind of blury between the rest.
Author:  Vaughan H. [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
Yeah, keeping the grades won't be particularly hard. I was just curious as to what are the advantages of going to Waterloo vs any other place, with the exception of 'quality education'?
Author:  Dratino [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
Well, there's also the networking. Waterloo is more easily recognized than the surrounding universities, so it's easier to get connections that way.
Author:  Tony [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
"co-op" is the common answer. There's also something to be said about the experience of being in a social circle of students at this level. If we assume that UWaterloo indeed gets a first pick of students, then you get the effect of "mediocre among the best" vs. "best among mediocre". Some students can't handle this, others thrive exceptionally well. UWaterloo's Velocity would be an exaggerated example of this.
Author:  Vaughan H. [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
Right. So Waterloo will help reputation wise, as well. I looked at Co-Op as well, but fear of not finding a job in a somewhat dying economy is fearful.

Is DWITE something that will help me out if I do fairly well?
Author:  A.J [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Computer Science woes
Bluntly put, no. DWITE doesn't really help you with university applications. However, it does help you in sharpening your skills which in turn helps you with the CCC (which does count towards your application).

So yeah, participate in DWITE as the questions are really interesting Razz (shameless self-promotion).
Author:  Dratino [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Vaughan H. @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:35 pm wrote:
Right. So Waterloo will help reputation wise, as well. I looked at Co-Op as well, but fear of not finding a job in a somewhat dying economy is fearful.


Well, if you can't find a co-op job, I don't think you're any worse off than somebody who doesn't have co-op.
Author:  Vaughan H. [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
Well, I got 2nd for my school for CCC, which isn't bad but then again I need to put myself into perspective for the world. The CCC isn't written in time for me to file my AIF, is it?
Author:  Tony [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Vaughan H. @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:35 pm wrote:
I looked at Co-Op as well, but fear of not finding a job in a somewhat dying economy is fearful.

Dying economy? You are grossly misinformed.
Author:  A.J [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
Actually, yes you are worse off, as you have to finish 6 out of the 7 available coop terms. Also, you'll be paying more money to be in the coop program, so you would want to get a job to pay off your term fees and possibly for other things (being in CS, I have to pay $600 per term to be in coop I believe).
Author:  SmokeMonster [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Computer Science woes
I have a friend who goes to Waterloo and everytime he's back here he bitterly complains about the depressing nature of that university and overall environment there. Obviously some people love it, I'd suggest actually visiting the school and judging if this is the place where you want to spend the next 4-5 yrs of your life at. I would not limit myself to two schools, I've heard great things about Queens and McGill. I think the kind of CS education you will get is similar across most public universities in Canada. What you should look for is if there is something else that is unique about the university that you like. Another thing to consider might be the size of the program. Some universities like Queens have really small CS programs with very few people in them whereas others like Waterloo have massive CS programs. You might prefer one or the other. Also something to consider is the courses that you are required to take, most universities post their required courses on the website, so you might wanna see if your prefer one, for example you might see that University A forces you to take 10 math courses compared to University B that only makes you take 5 and if you hate math that will weight in on your decision.
Author:  Vaughan H. [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
I'm no economist but I've heard some pretty cruddy stories and Waterloos website lists about an 85% employment rate for students. Whilst this is good, and probably about as good as it will get; there is still the chance that things can go wrong.
Author:  SmokeMonster [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
A.J @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:56 pm wrote:
Actually, yes you are worse off, as you have to finish 6 out of the 7 available coop terms. Also, you'll be paying more money to be in the coop program, so you would want to get a job to pay off your term fees and possibly for other things (being in CS, I have to pay $600 per term to be in coop I believe).


If you do not complete your coop terms the worst that can happen is that you won't get the coop designation on your degree, you'd still get the regular Hons. Bachelor of CS degree so in that sense you are not any worse off than others, atleast that's how it is at my university. I highly doubt Waterloo can prevent you from graduating if you do not finish the work terms or penalize you in any way.
Author:  Tony [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
current CS employment statistics are:
1B -- 69%
2A -- 71%
2B -- 91%
3A -- 94%
3B -- 93%
4A -- 100%
4B -- 100%

Of course keep in mind that if you are unemployable you get kicked out of co-op, so naturally the numbers are skewed.
Author:  Tony [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
SmokeMonster @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:06 pm wrote:
I highly doubt Waterloo can prevent you from graduating if you do not finish the work terms or penalize you in any way.

In CS they'll let you graduate, but will be unhappy with you and continue to charge you co-op fees. In Engineering programs they will prevent you from graduating.
Author:  Vaughan H. [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
Right, some of the numbers are quite discouraging.

Any thoughts on Project Euler?
Author:  SmokeMonster [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Tony @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:10 pm wrote:
SmokeMonster @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:06 pm wrote:
I highly doubt Waterloo can prevent you from graduating if you do not finish the work terms or penalize you in any way.

In CS they'll let you graduate, but will be unhappy with you and continue to charge you co-op fees. In Engineering programs they will prevent you from graduating.


Yikes! Sounds terrible to punish the student like that for something that is basically out of the student's control.
Author:  A.J [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Vaughan H. @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:11 pm wrote:
Right, some of the numbers are quite discouraging.

Any thoughts on Project Euler?


I guess I would be the PE person here Razz. Well, I have worked on PE problems for 4 years now, and they are damn entertaining. However, I don't think it really helps you with university applications much, as it is mostly something people do for fun. I put it on anyways as I was in the top 10 at the time I sent in my AIF Smile.
Author:  Tony [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
The University experience is a lot closer to the real world (although not quite) than the bubble that is high-school. Shit happens, and sometimes you just have to deal with it. There is some leeway -- you only need to complete 5 of the 6 co-op terms, and the definition of what is relevant to the industry is rather lax as well. If you can't find a paying job, you volunteer to fetch coffee at some Engineering firm for free.
Author:  Sur_real [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Tony @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:28 pm wrote:
The University experience is a lot closer to the real world (although not quite) than the bubble that is high-school. Shit happens, and sometimes you just have to deal with it. There is some leeway -- you only need to complete 5 of the 6 co-op terms, and the definition of what is relevant to the industry is rather lax as well. If you can't find a paying job, you volunteer to fetch coffee at some Engineering firm for free.


But don't you have to write a report or something afterwards? Anyways that's what heard...but it'll be funny at least, reading a report on fetching coffee. Very Happy
Author:  Tony [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
The report doesn't necessary have to be on the work that you've actually done. Some companies claim that everything is confidential, so you can't write about anything that happened on the job (still need to produce a report though).
Author:  Dratino [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Tony @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:28 pm wrote:
The University experience is a lot closer to the real world (although not quite) than the bubble that is high-school. Shit happens, and sometimes you just have to deal with it.


Would you deal with it by taking an extra year to finish off those extra co-op terms that you missed?
Author:  Tony [ Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
I've heard of at least one student who decided that he didn't need an on-paper degree since he already had an attractive full-time job offer by the time he finished his course requirements (but not those of co-op). It wasn't even a missing co-op term, just a failed report. His parents appealed to the school, but CECS can be rather difficult at times and refused.

I personally know of students who took effectively below-minimum-wage jobs on assembly lines, and volunteering gigs, as both fulfilled the requirement for "job experience" (even though they were a long stretch).

It gets much easier in upper years though.
Author:  Dratino [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Tony @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:15 pm wrote:
I've heard of at least one student who decided that he didn't need an on-paper degree since he already had an attractive full-time job offer by the time he finished his course requirements (but not those of co-op). It wasn't even a missing co-op term, just a failed report. His parents appealed to the school, but CECS can be rather difficult at times and refused.


That's the exception, not the rule, isn't it. (For people who failed the co-op part of the degree, I mean.)
Author:  A.J [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
I believe that differs from program to program. For example, Engineering programs value coop highly, and they will be seriously angry if you messed up a coop by either by not getting a job (though this isn't as bad if you have already completed your required number of coop terms), or getting a bad review from your employee, or not finishing PD, etc...
Author:  andrew. [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Tony @ Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:54 pm wrote:
The report doesn't necessary have to be on the work that you've actually done. Some companies claim that everything is confidential, so you can't write about anything that happened on the job (still need to produce a report though).
You're allowed to write a report on a confidential subject as long as it's okay with your employer. You just have to either mark it as confidential (and only one marker will ever read it) or you can try to have it employer marked (where your employer reads and grades it).
Author:  Tony [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
@Dratino -- for Engineering, that's the rule. Although students actually failing the co-op part of the degree is an exception. In CS you just declare to be in the non-coop program at the last moment Wink

@andrew. -- the key part is "it's ok with your employer". UWaterloo tries to accommodate for that by limiting the number of people actually reading the report (as you've said), but a few years back there were some blanket exceptions regarding reports about workterms at IBM. Things might have changed now though.
Author:  Vaughan H. [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
So.. what are my options towards Co-Op then?
Author:  Dratino [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Tony @ Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:54 am wrote:
@Dratino -- for Engineering, that's the rule. Although students actually failing the co-op part of the degree is an exception.


Is this because students get kicked out before they can fail completely, or because students are usually motivated enough to actually pass?
Author:  Tony [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
For CS, you options are either to apply to co-op or to not. The Career Services administration will make things difficult for you either way (if you are not in co-op, its in their interest that you don't find any relevant job over the summer, for example); but it is recommended that you go the co-op route anyway.
Author:  Tony [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Dratino @ Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:36 pm wrote:
Tony @ Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:54 am wrote:
@Dratino -- for Engineering, that's the rule. Although students actually failing the co-op part of the degree is an exception.


Is this because students get kicked out before they can fail completely, or because students are usually motivated enough to actually pass?

I haven't heard of cases where a student was forced out of their major for missing co-op requirements. That one example above denied the issue of a degree, but a student was not "kicked out". Subtle difference. There's also a lot of motivation to actually pass. Few years into the study, getting a job becomes the easy part, compared to the upper year classes.
Author:  SmokeMonster [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Computer Science woes
Tony @ Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:36 pm wrote:
For CS, you options are either to apply to co-op or to not. The Career Services administration will make things difficult for you either way (if you are not in co-op, its in their interest that you don't find any relevant job over the summer, for example); but it is recommended that you go the co-op route anyway.


Haha you make the the Career Services administration sound like James Bond villains
Author:  Prince Pwn [ Thu May 05, 2011 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
What if you have two years of computer science at a college but low marks in high school?
Author:  Tony [ Thu May 05, 2011 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Computer Science woes
If you apply as a mature student, there's a different admissions scheme that you could potentially use.

:


You can syndicate this boards posts using the file backend.php or view the topic map using sitemap.php.

Terms of Use | Privacy Policy