Computer Science Canada

Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Author:  Kam [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Hi all, I've been roaming around this forum for the past two weeks and although many of the threads I've read provided good info, most of them were focused on Waterloo... My school handed our student PIN numbers for applying through ouac and I have already decided to apply to Waterloo BMath(CS) as my first choice, UofT S.G. as my second choice, and I'm currently stuck as for my third choice for university. I definity want to major in computer science and because i enjoy math, I plan to focus on math courses as well.

I've narrowed down my choices for my third choice into a 3 universities; McMaster, York, Carleton, and Ryerson. I would have no complaints about choosing McMaster, but I'm not really interested in engineering and since you would need to take engineering courses in McMaster, it makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable applying to McMaster. York is another choice I liked. But due to the endless strikes (zzz), and I've been hearing from my friends, relatives, and even some comments made in this forum... that york is not that great of a choice. Carleton intrigues me because of their game developing course (which is the field I want to go into after computer science in university). The only thing, well there are a few actually, stopping me from choosing this is its distance away from my home in Toronto right now, and the fact that I haven't actually researched enough from Carleton. Ryerson passed through my list of choices because I do not need to move out of Toronto, but in my point of view, it seems they are not so dedicated for computer science as the other choices.

If anyone has any experience in any of these universities, then please go ahead, tell me about your opinions on each. I just want to make a solid decision for my third choice in case something goes really wrong with my first two choices (which I doubt, but I'd rather be safe than sorry ;p)

Also, I have a few questions regarding my first two choices (Waterloo and UofT):

Waterloo:
- I've been hearing rumors that there is just not enough time for social life in Waterloo. In a computer science student's perspective attending Waterloo, how is the workload? I can adjust easily if there is the workload is huge, but I just really couldn't stand working nonstop every day.
- How is the class size? Of the first year general computer science course? Second year? and if applicable to you, your third and fourth year class sizes?
- I've taken a tour around Waterloo last summer so I don't know what really happens during the school year. How is the traffic in the university? Is it crowded with people walking? Is it easy to get from your residence to the math faculty? Were you surprised as I were when you first saw the size of the math faculty?
- I've only been at the stores to the right of the university, but not much elsewhere. How are the shops there? (both outside and inside of Waterloo) For first years, which one of the residences did you choose to stay at? Did you have enough space? Did you have enough to eat? How cold can it get during winter?
- Lastly, how are the profs? Are they approachable? Can you understand them clearly enough so that you can rephrase with ease what they just said in their lecture?

UofT (St. George specifically):
- How crowded can the class be for first year and second? Is the class size bearable (ie. were you actually comfortable learning in such a environment?)
- Which of the 7 colleges did you choose? You don't have to live in the colleges/campus (even if you had to rank them from 1 to 7) right? If i'm going to attend UofT, then I'd rather save more money and stay at home rather then renting.
- I know UofT's co-op program is abit different from Waterloo's, so how is the Co-op program in UofT (for those that are in coop right now) Are the jobs interesting and unique?
- Because it is more crowded in UofT, how is the competition among students? If you're asking in what, anything ranging from the marks to financing to teacher-student interactions to seats for programs.

So far, those are my compiled questions for these two universities. Any opinions and comments I'm open to hear. This does seem a lot doesn't it? Sorry if it was, I just wanted to get precise clarifications on these. I give congrats to those that made it this far in reading and I'll be even more appreciated if I get some output and feedback in this thread. Thanks Smile
Author:  Cameron [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
As a first-year in CS at Waterloo, here's my response to your UW questions:

1) The workload is pretty heavy, especially if you take tougher courses for your non-math electives (ie. taking physics, chem, etc)
You'll get weekly assignments in algebra, calculus, and CS, which can take up a fair bit of time. Then, you'll have whatever else from your elective courses, and there's midterms as well.
It still is possible to have a social life, but how much free time you'll have really depends on how well you manage your time ....

2) Class sizes are around 100 for CS, and 150 for math courses (but obviously some people will drop out or choose to skip lectures) based on my experiences so far this year.
- Class sizes tend to shrink as the semester goes on - I'm down to about 60 in CS right now.

3) Well, it's obviously busier around campus during the fall, but I wouldn't say it's overcrowded or anything

4)I live in UW Place, and it's about a 10 minute walk to the Math building.
- I'm cooking for myself, so I can't really give any opinion about the quality of the cafeterias.
- My room & suite are a decent size
- no heating problems yet
- overall, it's been an awesome experience so far

5) All of my profs have been awesome this semester
- all of them are highly knowledgeable, speak clear English, and are approachable
- obviously, there are probably some bad profs out there, but I haven't got any yet Smile
Author:  DemonWasp [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
As another UW undergrad:

1. The workload starts fairly heavy and gets worse. There's time for a social life, but only in moderation. There is a balance between social life, studying/homework and sleep; you'll have to find where you balance that best.


2. Class size is generally reasonable. Most first-year classes start very large (100+), but eventually dwindle to varying degrees (40-80). Upper-year classes tend to be smaller as people drop out and course selection diversifies (40-60); some later courses have only a handful of people (5-10), particularly in pure math.


3. Road traffic is relatively sparse and tends to be university vehicles and drop-offs and student vehicles. In general, the causeways in the university are heavily-used, but rarely full and rarely crowded. You'll experience much more crowding if you try to study in the libraries, which are often filled with students. You shouldn't have any traffic troubles getting around the university.

The math building, to be honest, isn't really all that big. Just make sure you don't venture to the 5th or 6th floors right away, because they were designed by C'thulhu to consume unwary students.


4. There's the two plazas directly beside the university (just across the railroad tracks) and if you go along University towards King you'll find a lot more shops, eateries and bars. King street is bar street for the university.

Within UW, I hope you like Tim Horton's, because they have about 4 of them. There's also a bunch of eateries in the Student Life Centre (SLC).

Can't answer questions about residence, as I lived at home.


5. The profs vary wildly. The majority are reasonable people who are approachable and make themselves available. In first year, most of the profs speak English very clearly (with some exceptions) but in later years it gets a bit rockier. I've had a prof whose English was good, but was so heavily-accented (Indian, I think) that I couldn't understand him and had to go to another lecture to learn the material (this was Math 135, Classical Algebra). I've also had a prof (Math 237, Calculus II) who spoke so quietly she was inaudible past the first row of seats. I've also had worthless profs who couldn't explain a mouse to a cat (CS245, Logic and Computation).
Author:  Kam [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Thanks for your inputs into this. I've only been at the base level at the math faculty and if I actually do go to Waterloo, i'll take your advice and venture into the 5th and 6th levels with a flashlight Smile From both Cameron's and DemonWasp's post, Waterloo seems to be a really great place.

If you have any other comments about Waterloo, I'd like to hear them. I know many users in this forum favours Waterloo over other universities, but can someone shed me some light on how the other universities are?
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
DemonWasp @ Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:20 am wrote:
I've also had worthless profs who couldn't explain a mouse to a cat (CS245, Logic and Computation).


FYI there are decent (in my opinion, since I mostly designed them) slides for CS 245 on my personal webpage, almost certainly not used by your instructor.
Author:  Superskull85 [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
I applied to Carleton as one of my university choices, and it seemed like a pretty good school to go to. I liked the fact that I if I did go I would be living in the capital, and I heard stories about good coop options in the city (though they were dated).

That probably doesn't help too much, but hopefully it helped a little. Smile

Waterloo is great university, but what stopped me from applying to Waterloo was that I would only be attending Waterloo was because the only reason I would be attending the university was because of its reputation. I did not want to this, so I did not apply to Waterloo and instead applied to other universities that attracted me because of how much I like the university and the area, and not just because of there reputation. These universities included: McMaster, Carleton, York and Guelph.

You probably have solid reasons for selecting the universities you are applying to, but in case you have similar thoughts as I did I hope that this helped you pick the universities you would like best. Smile
Author:  DemonWasp [ Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
@Prabhakar: That information would probably have been more useful to me about 7 months ago, before I went on to get a low mark in that course. Hopefully other students going into it see your post, because the lecture notes sold are at best unhelpful and the prof was...well, maybe the prof knew the material, but not how to teach. Sadly, a common affliction among profs as they're taught the material but never attend teaching courses.
Author:  Kam [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Could you fill in me in what that course (CS245, Logic and Computation) is about? That reminds me of another question... Is there a big supply of profs such that you may get different profs for every course you take?
Author:  Tony [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Kam @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:50 am wrote:
Could you fill in me in what that course (CS245, Logic and Computation) is about?

It's about Logic, and... wait for it... Computation.

http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/current/courses/course_descriptions/

Quote:

[CS245] is intended to introduce students to formal logic and its applications in computer science including specification and program verification.


And yes, typically every course you'll have will be taught by a different prof. In some classes that are large enough to have multiple sections, they might be taught by different professors during the same term.
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
DemonWasp @ Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:43 pm wrote:
Sadly, a common affliction among profs as they're taught the material but never attend teaching courses.


Not sure that "teaching courses" would help. All your high school teachers had a year of them and a Bachelor of Education diploma.
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
In that case, what's often lacking is knowledge or interest in the subject, at least for the CS courses.
Author:  DemonWasp [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
@Prabhakar: And, in general, those high school teachers were substantially better teachers. They were able to provide lucid explanations of course material to people who had never seen it before. They were also able to illustrate the advantage that this knowledge provides (something that may be obvious in some courses, or completely non-intuitive in others). They also knew how to project their voice loudly enough for everyone to hear and how to present the information in such a way that you actually learned some of it.

In contrast, some professors at UW (I emphasize some because of course there are plenty that don't fit this pattern) were clearly never interested in teaching the material. That's fine: they probably wanted to do research, and this teaching thing is boring, cumbersome or even fear-inducing (I know I'd fear getting up in front of a class of sleeping / inattentive 20-somethings to talk for an hour). These people generally make very poor teachers.

There is, of course, the entirely opposite group of professors: those that want to teach. There was a particularly notable prof who had completed a rather nasty-sounding AMath/PMath double degree in order to teach first-year algebra and was one of the best teachers I've ever seen. This breed is rare.
Author:  Horus [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
I go to waterloo.

For the course load, i'd say it's really easy to pass (get over 60%) as it is to get >75% avg in high school.
The course overall is not too hard, but rather boring. In CS 75% of our codes are comments or tests. The actual coding is about 25%. I personally don't like the programming language scheme despite how professors makes it sound like the best programming language in the world. coding in scheme is like writing an essay where you put the verb before the noun for every sentence.
In calculus, it's a review of gr 12 calculus with introduction to many new theorems that takes 1 page to prove that you have to memorize.
Algebra is the only fun course where you actually get to prove stuff yourself instead of memorizing proves.

As for social life, depends on you. If you want to have a 90+ GPA, you would most likely have no social life. If you just want to pass, then there's plenty of time to have fun.

For residence, I recommend st.Jerome's. For St.Jerome, the meal plan is included in the residence fee, so you can eat as much as possible each day and the food is great.
If you're unable to get into St. Jerome, UWP and MKV is great if you can cook, otherwise you're stuck in v1 and rev.

I've never talked to profs other than saying hi, but there is always some people that approaches the prof after each lecture for question.

Another university I can talk about is York, I have a friend that goes to york university for cs. He told me he's learning java in 1st year. He is kind of annoyed of how everything he's learning is exactly what he learned in gr 12. But he got plenty of time for other stuff. He's in a club thats making some kind of robot. He said all in all he likes york because of all the extra curriculum stuff he get to do.
Author:  Kam [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Thanks for your insight everyone. As a result to everything, I've decided in the end to apply to four universities, with my first choice being Waterloo, second UofT, third McMaster, and lastly Ryerson. York was really close with Ryerson, but I was fearing additional strikes there may be deadly for me x_x Thanks again, all. I'll probably be posting the most random questions about mostly Waterloo and UofT in the future... like really random questions so be prepared >Very Happy
Author:  Tony [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:47 pm wrote:

For residence, I recommend st.Jerome's.

Keep in mind that St. Jerome's residence is a part of SJU, an associated college across the river from UW. And they have their own set of rules, independent from UW and UW's residences:
Quote:
In all of our activities and practices, St. Jerome's University functions within the context of the Roman Catholic tradition and the principles of academic freedom.

Though I hear that it's not too bad.

Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:47 pm wrote:

He said all in all he likes york because of all the extra curriculum stuff he get to do.

University experience is largely what you make of it. There are usually plenty of clubs to get involved with, or one could start some project of their own.
Author:  CodeMonkey2000 [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:47 pm wrote:
I personally don't like the programming language scheme despite how professors makes it sound like the best programming language in the world. coding in scheme is like writing an essay where you put the verb before the noun for every sentence.


Hey Scheme is awesome. The semantics and syntax of Scheme is very simple and natural. You are too used to Java/C++/Turing Plus there are a lot of things in scheme that I wish were in C/C++ (like lambda). If I was a highschool teacher, I would design my grade 11&12 CS classes like CS 135.


As for the work load for CS in UW, it really depends on your ability to grasp concepts. If you can understand things quickly, first term will be a breeze. You do get weekly assignments in (almost) every course, so if it takes you long to do assignments, managing your time is crucial. Math 135, math 137 and cs 135 wasn't terribly difficult for me. On average it takes me around 1-2 hrs to complete my assignments (for each class). For midterms/exams, review your notes and look at the mistakes you made on your assignments. There are old exams available, but I don't find them that useful. To me, the workload is greater than what it was in highschool, but it's still not too bad (I am commenting on first term, from what I hear it gets worse in 1B). The thing I like the most about university is that the amount of time you spend in classes is a lot less than in highschool. On Mon,Wed and Fri I'm in classes for around 5 hrs, and on Tues & Thurs 1 hr 20 min. Tues & Thurs is when I typically work on assignments, the rest of the time I'm free Very Happy .
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
DemonWasp @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:55 am wrote:
@Prabhakar: And, in general, those high school teachers were substantially better teachers.


Maybe your high school experience was better than mine, or that of my kids (one is in the middle of HS, one finished last year), or your university experience was worse. I found the level of teaching to be about comparable. There were a few inspirational teachers, many okay teachers, and some stinkers. The difference between high school and university is that the material in university is a lot better, and you're paying for it, so you tend to be more critical.

It's easy to blame the emphasis on research for poor teaching at university, but the fact is that both the university and high school systems, you can do a mediocre or even poor job of teaching and your paycheck is still secure, unless you don't show up to class or assault a student or something. There are always going to be people who take advantage of that. (It's not unique to education, either.) --PR
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
CodeMonkey2000 @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:35 pm wrote:
You do get weekly assignments in (almost) every course, so if it takes you long to do assignments, managing your time is crucial.


I think this is the key: knowing how to manage your time and work efficiently. Don't leave things to the last minute, get help when you get stuck, plan ahead. Sounds like you're ahead of the pack in that respect. --PR

(PS Glad you like Scheme. It changed my life at a point where you wouldn't think that possible.)
Author:  Superskull85 [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Off topic, but I like Scheme as well.

I like how a lot of the language is straight forward and follows a concise layout where you don't have to think about whether the syntax will change ever so slightly just because it is a different feature in the language (like the basic arithmetics and function calls. In a lot of languages you would need to write something like (1 + 2) to add two numbers, but if you wanted to implement that via a function you would have to write "add (1, 2)".).

The other thing I like about Scheme is the freedom of naming variables and definitions. The language feels less restrictive when the programmer has the freedom to name things as he/she wishes.

Now there is an aspect of Scheme that I am not too fond of, and that is having to use parenthesis's all the time. I personally find it confusing to look at, but that is just a minor drawback about the language.

If I had the chance to use Scheme in mandatory studies I would definitely enjoy using the language.

Also time management is the key to success in my opinion as well. I've met a bunch of Engineering students that have a hard time with their studies because they are not able to manage their unusual amount of courses. I do not know how easy or hard Engineering in general is, but I think time management would of helped them tremendously through term one.
Author:  endless [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Horus, are you from SJ?


Tony @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:34 pm wrote:
Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:47 pm wrote:

For residence, I recommend st.Jerome's.

Keep in mind that St. Jerome's residence is a part of SJU, an associated college across the river from UW. And they have their own set of rules, independent from UW and UW's residences:
Quote:
In all of our activities and practices, St. Jerome's University functions within the context of the Roman Catholic tradition and the principles of academic freedom.

Though I hear that it's not too bad.


i'm living here at SJ right now (although have all classes on main campus) and it is definitely epic, i would prefer any of the affiliated colleges for residence (Note that i am not religious at all, and i don't think many are here, but maybe that's due to SJ being mostly math people.) just because of the smaller community, and the caf here is awesome. i hear the main campus res' are fine with underage drinking, which is the difference here at SJ, it is pretty strict in that respect.
Author:  Horus [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
@endless, no, I live in UWP. But i got a friend who's in STJ so I go to STJ very often and come to realize it's a great place.

@CodeMonkey2000
If you are too used to the "natural" way of coding. You'll have a hard time coding in unnatural programs like C++/java etc... where those are the languages used to write real applications.
Author:  CodeMonkey2000 [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
I still experiment with C++ and openGL on the side. I've been using C++ since grade 9 (when I taught myself).
Author:  Tony [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:21 pm wrote:
You'll have a hard time coding in unnatural programs like C++/java etc... where those are the languages used to write real applications.

Assuming one would even want to write "real applications", whatever that means...
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:21 pm wrote:

If you are too used to the "natural" way of coding. You'll have a hard time coding in unnatural programs like C++/java etc... where those are the languages used to write real applications.


It doesn't have to be one or the other. Computer scientists should learn to handle many different styles of coding, and choose the one best suited to the task at hand. But in the learning process, a language with minimal syntax and good abstraction capabilities is a win. --PR
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Superskull85 @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:46 pm wrote:

Now there is an aspect of Scheme that I am not too fond of, and that is having to use parenthesis's all the time. I personally find it confusing to look at, but that is just a minor drawback about the language.


You learn to look past them.

There are three big advantages of the parentheses.

1. Unifying functions and operators, so you don't have to think about precedence and ordering.

2. Making code look similar to data, so that you can easily talk about Scheme programs which manipulate other Scheme programs. (* 2 3) is a Scheme expression that evaluates to 6. '(* 2 3) is a list of length 3 that you can manipulate. You learn a lot by writing Scheme interpreters in Scheme.

3. Making macros easy to write. Macros let you add syntax to the language by expressing rules of the form "If code looks like this [pattern], rewrite it like this [template]". Scheme's macro system goes well beyond the primitive C preprocessor (e.g. Scheme macros can be recursive, and hygiene takes care of potential name clashes). Advanced features of the system bring point 2 into play as well.

--PR
Author:  DemonWasp [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Prabhakar Ragde @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:39 pm wrote:
Maybe your high school experience was better than mine, or that of my kids ... or your university experience was worse. I found the level of teaching to be about comparable.


It must have been. I went to the new school in the area (SJAM) when it opened, and it pulled a lot of really good teachers in. I won't name anyone, but I've been very disappointed in a few professors at UW because of their lack of enthusiasm, poor presentation skills and scattered thought processes. It may not help the problem that high school was mostly coasting for me, whereas university is decidedly not.
Author:  Euphoracle [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Clearly you had a different high school experience than me as well. The profs I have are a blessing in comparison.
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Heh, I enjoyed my high school experience as well. I guess it really does depend on the person. Wink I appreciate the idea of receiving a broad education, while the whole business of specializing in a topic or two disheartens me. Focusing on a limited set of topics, while perhaps beneficial to society, fosters people's biases and to some extent encourages them to 'live in a box'.

Sidetracking the topic a bit, sorry.
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Gandalf: you are absolutely right. And the trick is to, first of all, get as broad an education as you can within the constraints of your chosen program, and second of all, never stop learning, even after your formal education is done. Unfortunately an affordable, high-quality liberal-arts education is hard to come by these days, and definitely undervalued.
Author:  Horus [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Prabhakar Ragde @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:07 pm wrote:
Horus @ Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:21 pm wrote:

If you are too used to the "natural" way of coding. You'll have a hard time coding in unnatural programs like C++/java etc... where those are the languages used to write real applications.


It doesn't have to be one or the other. Computer scientists should learn to handle many different styles of coding, and choose the one best suited to the task at hand. But in the learning process, a language with minimal syntax and good abstraction capabilities is a win. --PR


True that, except shouldn't the school consider teaching the languages that the students need to know immediately rather than a language that can be taught later?
For coop, most programming jobs requires you to use C++/java. When scheme was introduced in 2008, the coop rate for first year cs dropped significantly. According to the admission brochure I got in gr 12, the coop rate was 97% for cs, assuming that the number of people for coop is equal in all 6 work terms and all work term's coop rate is 100% except for the first, the first year coop rate for 2007-2008 would still be 82%. But in 2008-2009 (according to tony: http://compsci.ca/v3/viewtopic.php?t=20978) the coop rate for first year cs dropped to 53%. Sure, recession might played a role, but it did not affect much for SE which is still 71%. Now, SE and CS have almost identical courses with the exception of the CS course, CS is learning scheme in first year, while SE goes for C. So doesn't scheme lower the first year coop rate?
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Help deciding back-up (third choice) university
Horus @ Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:41 pm wrote:

True that, except shouldn't the school consider teaching the languages that the students need to know immediately rather than a language that can be taught later?


Maybe -- if our only goal was to prepare students for their first co-op work term. Note that we had a decade of teaching students using Java in first year. The professor who developed the second-year course that followed put the following question on an assignment: read in a file of numbers and print it out twice. He used this several times (you can still find this question on CS 241 assignment 3 this term) and a significant fraction of the students could not do it, or wrote a program that took O(n^2) time for n numbers. Do you think they were prepared for their first co-op job?

We talked to the employers about our plans. Some of them had already complained about the programming skills of our students. They were on board with the changes we proposed. They're under no illusion that what students learn in first year can be immediately useful. They hire first-year students for aptitude and potential.

Quote:
When scheme was introduced in 2008, the coop rate for first year cs dropped significantly.


And the biggest economic downturn in seventy years had nothing to do with that, of course.

Quote:

Sure, recession might played a role, but it did not affect much for SE which is still 71%.


SE has a hundred students, CS about four hundred. The cutoffs are similar, but their "average average" is slightly higher, and they require significant prior experience to CS in high school, whereas CS doesn't. If you crafted a similar demographic by selecting CS students with comparable averages and experience, you'll probably get a similar employment rate.

SE students, in their 1A course, largely did what they did in high school. Their marks were pretty good, I'm sure. The marks in the 1A CS course, which is something completely new and challenging, were lower. That probably didn't help the immediate employment prospects of CS students. But it will leave them in a better position for the future.

Quote:

Now, SE and CS have almost identical courses with the exception of the CS course, CS is learning scheme in first year, while SE goes for C. So doesn't scheme lower the first year coop rate?


SE students learn Scheme in 1B. CS students learn C in 1B. Neither group goes out on co-op until after that.

We'll talk again once you go through CS 136. --PR

(PS: UBC is switching to Scheme in first year.)

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