Computer Science Canada anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
| Author: | chopperdudes [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
school's nearing and i'm tired of my fri-sat-sun evening part-time below-minimum-wage waiter job at a friend's restaurant. like almost everyone on this forum, i'm a coder, and like almost everyone in ontario, i started with turing. i wouldn't say i'm a good coder, just competent enough to make small games. coding the likes of minesweeper can sometimes take away an hour or 2 of boredom, but the full mario clone including cheats took over 3000 lines (which got me a perfect for my final ISU). of course this is all with turing as i do not know graphics in java yet. algorithm wise i'd say i'm above average, but nowhere near good. i did win the $100 prize for junior CCC last year, but am now frantically trying to prepare myself for Senior to come this year. anyways... enough with the story. so i'm tired of my job, got a bit of money, got a few friends that are coders, and was wondering how we could get small jobs on something we love (an no we don't love working as a waiter). so we looked into the apple iPhone apps. we read alot of successful stories, but are quite hesitant to believe that that is the norm (at least after the iPhone app has opened to public for almost a year i believe). for $99 this could be considered a cheap risk (or just pay to gain experience and what not). and we can use the mac one of our friends have. however, what i would really like to hear is if anyone here has tried to develop and/or sell iPhone apps, and if so, what are your experiences and how much money were you able to make. thx alot |
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| Author: | rdrake [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
My summer job required me to develop educational resources for the iPhone platform. I have not sold anything. My experiences have been somewhat positive. The platform is ridiculously restrictive and the certificates are rather annoying. Getting used to the language isn't too bad, but using it properly takes some work, particularly with regards to memory management. It may use Obj-C 2.0, but you have no garbage collection on the iPhone. Some things are nicely done, others I find lacking. Up until recently there wasn't even an API to manage your data (no, a C API to sqlite doesn't count). If you want a sample application to have a look at, you can check out one of my example programs located over at Github. Any questions in particular? |
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| Author: | DtY [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
I've been playing around with it a bit. If you go to developer.apple.com and apply for a developer account (for free), you can download the complete API and start paying. The $99 is only to put the application on an actual iphone (instead of using the iphone simulator on your computer) or to put it into the app store. |
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| Author: | chopperdudes [ Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
i'm more interested in terms of money (if i'll make any is the big question, not rly how much). and if it's actually worth it and there's a market to explore. i do know the 99 is for putting apps on the store, but i first need access to a mac =) lol. once i do, i'll play around with it and see how it goes. so rdrake, what did you find lacking? (besides the fact that there wasn't an API) were there wheels you'd have to reinvent? and elaborate on the restrictive platform? |
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| Author: | rdrake [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
chopperdudes @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:25 pm wrote: so rdrake, what did you find lacking? (besides the fact that there wasn't an API) were there wheels you'd have to reinvent? It was mostly the lack of any decent data API that really annoyed me. Most of the other bits are ok (that is to say I can't recall any more annoyances at this point in time).
chopperdudes @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:25 pm wrote: and elaborate on the restrictive platform? Let's say you write an application. You're happy with it, you paid your $99 to Apple, and you submit it for sale in the application store. Apple doesn't like it, your app is rejected, too bad.
You can't install what you want when you want. I can see them charging money for their services in adding the application to the app store, but I think it's ridiculous to charge money to developers to test their applications on an actual device. |
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| Author: | Dan [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
chopperdudes @ 24th August 2009, 11:25 pm wrote: i'm more interested in terms of money (if i'll make any is the big question, not rly how much). and if it's actually worth it and there's a market to explore. i do know the 99 is for putting apps on the store, but i first need access to a mac =) lol. once i do, i'll play around with it and see how it goes.
Apple resvers the right to force you to refunded purchaes of your application, plus the fee/share apple gets, at any time.1 There is also the posblity that apple will review your app and not acpect it from some trival (and inconsitent) reasson(s) and is under investagtion of the FCC due to doing just this for a google voice app. 2 Also there are reports of delays in payments to app devlopers and horiable custmer serivce. 3 So in the worst case you could lose money (on top of the fees to get it in the store), time and end up with an app no one can use unless they jail break there iPhone. _____ 1 http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/03/26/report-apple-forces.html http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/25/apples-iphone-app-refund-policies-could-bankrupt-developers/ 2 http://www.tuaw.com/2009/08/22/distinctions-without-differences-apples-inconsistent-app-store/ http://mashable.com/2009/07/31/google-voice-ban/ http://chillix.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/another-app-store-rejection-story/ There are many other cases for app rejection you can find with some googling that are even more crazy. 3 http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/24/iphone-app-developers-gripe-about-payment-delays-and-dismal-customer-service/ |
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| Author: | octopi [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
On the other-hand, blackberry development is both easy and free (or near free). All blackberry stuff is based on java, so if you already know java it won't be too difficult. It comes with a simulator for testing your applications, and if you have a physical blackberry you can put your programs on it for free depending how complex your code is. The only catch (and it's a minor one IMO), is if you want to use certain API features you need to register with RIM for 20$ (USD). They will give you a set of code signing keys, which allows you to sign your code, so it'll run on the device. If you don't use those certain features then you don't ever have to pay anything. The restricted features cover things like storing data on the blackberry, adding global menu items (for example add a menu option to the calander program which will send data to your program when clicked), etc... There are some catches, the on device dubugging isn't too great, for my phone they hadn't yet released the proper files, so I was only able to view simple types in the debugger (when connected to a physical device), complex types would just show the references. It's also fairly complex when it comes to dealing with data connections, for example when the service goes in and out, blackberries also (IMO) as reliable with data services as iPhone is. I was able to make a pretty good looking and successful application for our workplace which keeps track of all on-site service calls, kilometers driven, parts used, etc in about a month's worth of time. |
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| Author: | DtY [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
The blackberry doesn't have a store though does it, so selling a blackberry application would be done by the developer, which would be considerably harder. |
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| Author: | octopi [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
http://na.blackberry.com/eng/services/appworld/? I've never used it, so can't speak. I would think if your app is good enough to be popular in an 'App Store' then it should be good enough to survive on its own. It's not too hard to integrate paypal for purchases. Its also very easy to make applications install from a website. You just put your applications files up (jad, cod files) then set your server to send the correct content types for those files, and that's it-just send the user to the jad file, and it'll install it on the phone (after getting confirmation from user) Edit: fees for blackberry app world are a little different than iPhone, here its a 200usd fee, which allows you to publish 10 apps, or 1 app, and 9 updates. However there doesn't appear to be any commission. |
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| Author: | DtY [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
Just realized my post looks a little rude. That was, "does the blackberry have an app store like the ipod? I haven't heard of it" If you can write an app that gets popular on the ipod app store (or other smart phone equivalent) it would probably be okay on it's own, however, most software wont get there, and which would you rather do (1) press a button, enter your password on an ipod (or other smart phone) and have it or (2) Find out about the software somewhere (hard part) going to the website, entering your paypal information, buying, manually putting it on your phone. You have to do the marketing yourself, buy web hosting, buy advertising probably, of course that's more work than submitting it to the app store, and having people see it there when they search. |
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| Author: | Dan [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
I hate to support Microsoft, but Windows Moblie might be one of the most open mobile development platforms other then android and there is a version of the app store (Windows Market Place) witch does have an app to access it from the phone (tho it may not be installed on all WM phones). Your not forced to sell your app threw them, there are several unoffical WM application stores and you can sell it off your own site. There is no cost to test your app on your phone as Microsoft does not control your phone, you do. There is the same $99 cost to list your app in the Market Place however and there are rules and a reivew process (tho less strict then apples). Windows Moblie is big on .NET but it is also possible to install a JVM and run byte code (java). According to Wikipedia 1 windows mobile has 12.4% market share, BlackBerry has 19.5% and iPhone only has 10.7% so it might make sence to target those markets before the iPhone (consdiering the risk with iPhone devlopment). Also Symbian seems to have the largets share at 47.1% despite not being very visible. _____ 1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone |
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| Author: | rdrake [ Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
Anybody looking to do BlackBerry development on their own absolutely has to read this article. I'm sure a lot of the advertising/customer relations/etc. information is applicable to just about any mobile platform as well. And just for clarification, there is one official application store for the BlackBerry as well as at least 3 unofficial ones that have been around for quite some time. |
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| Author: | Joel92 [ Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
I'm currently learning Objective-C then will learn Cocoa/Cocoa touch and try to develop some apps. If money is all you care about, and you don't want to wait to learn ObjC/Cocoa well I guess you could just sub-contract/outsource some apps? Although, you'd still need your developers license. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
Developing for Blackberry/WinMo/Android phones has a few big drawbacks. To name a couple that spring to mind: Hardware differences. Any of those three run on sometimes subtly and sometimes wildly varying hardware configurations. When you're writing your app, can you count on a touchscreen? No. Can you count on it having a fast processor or decent amounts of memory? No. Can you count on a high resolution screen? No. You are left to either dramatically restrict the features in your application or dramatically limit your target market and confuse your potential customers. Discoverability. The iPhone has a tremendously active community of users and developers who not only get the word out to the hardcore fans but also to ordinary users. Good apps get noticed and publicized to a wide market. It has been my observation that there is significantly less of this surrounding the other platforms. |
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| Author: | Dan [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
But at what cost WTD? The total removal of any real freedom to develop what you want, unfairly removing all comptition (no duplicate functionality) and requiring the aproval of apple for everything you want to distrubte? Besides just like in the PC world, there are soultions to devloping for verying hardware. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
Well, that is predicated on Apple not changing their position. They've shown repeatedly that they are more than capable of adapting to meet the market's demands. After all, we have iTunes with DRM-free music and a real SDK for the iPhone instead of web apps, Firewire on 13.3" aluminum notebooks and matte screen options, just to name a few instances. But even if nothing were to change, commercial software development is ultimately about business, and business is fraught with compromise situations. If it means going after the biggest market with the most active developer community and the most straightforward platform to target, then for a great many developers it is worth living with the App Store approval process. You don't have to like it, but so far the alternatives are less appealing. |
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| Author: | Dan [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
I wonder if you would feel the same if Microsoft took that view for Windows for the PC.... Making Windows Market Place the only possible way to get or sell applications. It would create the biggest and most active developer community ever as no one has a choice. After all for a great many developers it would be worth living with the Microsoft approval process, who needs firefox, opera and chrome any way? They are all duplicate functionality compared to IE. Programing langues, code interpation and eumluation? Only hackers use that, your not a hacker are you WTD? You don't have to like it but the alternative would be less appealing and have a smaller community! Lets face it, you don't relay own your iPhone you just rent it from apple and AT&T (or rogers as the case may be in Canada). |
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| Author: | DtY [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
I don't know if apple would really mind someone submitting a safari replacement to the app store. It's not like apple gets paid every time you use safari (other than through google, but the few people who would actually change would likely be negligible), you're still pretty much forced into safari anyway-- If an app wants to open a web site, the only way to do that is through safari, if they want to embed html, that's safari, it's like IE on Windows, it's built right in, even if you have firefox on your iphone, you're still using safari. I think it's legit for Apple to make everything go through the app store, it's their platform, they designed it, they programmed it (except for BSD or whatever Unix is underneath it), I mean, is it really different than not being able to write your own games for nearly every game console that has ever been made (with the exception of playing on an emulator, just like the iphone)? |
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| Author: | A.J [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
Funny you ask... This is my first post from my IPhone. |
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| Author: | andrew. [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
It would be cool for Firefox to be ported to the iPhone, but I doubt that Apple would allow it. I think that they would want Safari to be the only browser on the iPhone. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
DtY @ Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:30 am wrote: I don't know if apple would really mind someone submitting a safari replacement to the app store. It's not like apple gets paid every time you use safari (other than through google, but the few people who would actually change would likely be negligible), you're still pretty much forced into safari anyway-- If an app wants to open a web site, the only way to do that is through safari, if they want to embed html, that's safari, it's like IE on Windows, it's built right in, even if you have firefox on your iphone, you're still using safari.
I'm fairly sure they would mind. Part of what defines the iPhone is its web browser. Apple doesn't want to see that user experience diluted. They might eventually cave to overwhelming pressure and allow such things in, but they would only be dragged there kicking and screaming. Of course, that may also be because Firefox for something like the iPhone would offer no compelling advantage. Webkit is the best renderer out* and you can't add much in the way of extensions and such before bringing a mobile platform's processing power and battery life to its knees. The iPhone/iPod touch is not the world's most open mobile computing platform, but then, that's not Apple's goal. Their goal is to be the "best" mobile computing platform, wherein I hope we can agree that "best" for the mobile market (not limited to geeks) must be defined as the most conducive to thorough use. So far I'd say that not being overly open is helping them accomplish that goal. Whether that will be the case long-term... we will see. Dan, as for whether I think a single controlled marketplace for apps on a desktop platform is a good idea... in theory, yes, I do. I have always been of the opinion that one of the greatest advantages Linux distributions have is not necessarily openness, but rather their package management systems combined with package repositories. With a good review process (and there's the real trick) a single source for software that can be trusted would have long ago helped Microsoft to mitigate their security quagmire. So much of Windows security is just knowing what software to trust, but that takes vigilance that most people don't have. Imagine that we have a central Windows Marketplace for apps. If it's malware, the review process nukes it, and prevents it from being an option for installation. If it's just not very good, it might still be available, but good software would have a chance to rise to the top via customer reviews, preventing the poorly written programs from getting attention. Of course, as I said, the review process is the real trick, and whether it's even possible to create an open and fair, yet effective review process for something on that scale is something I think only time will tell. * RIM recently acquired a company that makes a Webkit browser for WinMo, presumably to replace the Blackberry's current browser. |
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| Author: | rdrake [ Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
DtY @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:30 pm wrote: I don't know if apple would really mind someone submitting a safari replacement to the app store. They won't mind at all. They will take the $99 fee, reject the application, and a bawwfest will brew on the Internet. |
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| Author: | Dan [ Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:anyone tried developing iPhone apps? |
wtd @ 28th August 2009, 10:13 pm wrote: n, as for whether I think a single controlled marketplace for apps on a desktop platform is a good idea... in theory, yes, I do. I have always been of the opinion that one of the greatest advantages Linux distributions have is not necessarily openness, but rather their package management systems combined with package repositories. With a good review process (and there's the real trick) a single source for software that can be trusted would have long ago helped Microsoft to mitigate their security quagmire. So much of Windows security is just knowing what software to trust, but that takes vigilance that most people don't have. Imagine that we have a central Windows Marketplace for apps. If it's malware, the review process nukes it, and prevents it from being an option for installation. If it's just not very good, it might still be available, but good software would have a chance to rise to the top via customer reviews, preventing the poorly written programs from getting attention.
There is no reason you can't have that kind of rewview processes and offical package repository/app store and allow thrid party and indenpent distrubuition. I think your example of package repositories in most distros proves it. For peoleop that don't like choice they can stick to the preinstalled repository and thoses that do can go outside of that. It's not up to the hardware manufcutere to decided what i can do with the equipment i own. Also the idea that all the apps in the app store are more seucre is some what of a fallacy. My understanding is that apple does not autactaly view the source code of the applications and only runs them, it would be easy for malware to be time senstive or be remotly activated. There is auctaly an artical on this very idea: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/05/appstoreeasteregg/ They detial a case where an app was rejected for having the posblity of bad language (the app viewed lyrics) and to pass the review the devloper just added langue filiter witch can be truned off threw an easter egg. The bigest issues however is apple is using the app store to creat an monoply on software, no matter what apple gets a cut and they limit what kind of apps can be devloped for the platform so there could be no posible comptintion for them. This would be like GM telling you where you can drive in your car and what you can put in it. Just think of all the applications that Microsoft makes for the PC, do you realy think they have done the best job compared to there comptition on the same platform? If they used the same kind of one source for applications the only word processor would be word, the only DBMS would be access and SQL server, the only webserver would be IIS, the only chat program MSNM, the only browser would be IE, the only graphics program would be MS paint, the only move editor would be windows moive maker, and so on and so on. You can't honestly tell me that you think the consumer would be better off with no compeption at all in the software for that platform? |
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