I recommend a raid5 setup on 3 500gb drives - gives you 1TB of storage, and yet is more reliable then 1TB drives (I wait a bit for the top of the line to become more reliable
)
Put those in a desktop with a core i7 and your golden.
Computer Science Canada Old guy meets new machine |
| Author: | btiffin [ Mon May 04, 2009 9:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Old guy meets new machine |
Hello everyone. I'm starting to think I might break with a 20 year tradition and buy new. Unfortunately I'm so used to just picking up refurbished machinery that I'm completely out of the loop regarding robust quality components. I'm looking for a solid developer box that I can rely on, but I don't need anything flashy. So ... given that I'd like a fairly fast, but not too fast (I'm old) processor that could run Debian host and guest virtualization of various other OS'es, but unlikely ever more than one guest at a time, support two semi-fat hard drives in a semi-hot fail over setup and I'm pretty used to wired networking, umm ... I care not for super blasty video games but do need a Windows OS buried under the GRUB for those times when the little one plops in her Dora DVDs. The bar is set at a 15gig HD 1gig RAM Pentium 4 Compaq Evo running Lenny and price point in the low thousand range, would you have any advice? This is my AaFH phase before digging in and RTFM. I'll admit there are a lot of details for the less than 10 major component points for the average personal computer so I'd appreciate any hints or opinions. It kinda has to be PC architecture as I'll need to be learning some things for work. A personal annoyance factor is noise; quieter is better, high pitched whine sucketh. Cheers and thanks for listening |
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| Author: | DemonWasp [ Mon May 04, 2009 11:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
You probably want either a Core 2 Duo or an AMD X2 CPU. Both of these cover a range from "pretty decent" to "quite awesome"; I'd recommend something in an e6600 or e8400 as they're relatively cheap and quite...zippy. I'd suggest no less than 2GB of RAM, preferably DDR2 (DDR3 is no faster in most cases, and slower in some). If $250 for a CPU is too rich for your blood, go for an AMD. For your graphics card, get a motherboard that has integrated video (they're quite fast now) or if you need dedicated, get a low-end nVidia card, like a 9400 or 9600 (whatever GS/GT they attach; they're usually pretty similar). Dedicated is going to cost more, but be faster; you can probably get dedicated for +$60, or integrated for +$40. In particular, you can probably get a "fanless" variant that won't produce any noise, just has a larger heatsink; I have a silenced 8400GS in my server and it's probably under 50dB total (whisper-quiet). For hard drives, don't go for the 1.5TB ones, they've been having "failure issues" recently. Hit up the 640GB or 1TB ones for price per space, or a nice 500GB if you can't see yourself sucking down media files or heavy software / games. Seagate or Western Digital are my preferences but they're all damned near the same (and all are around 23dB, quieter than you can hear over your own breathing for the most part). For PSU, go for something a little excessive for the rig. Probably 600W or more. Spend a little extra to make sure you get an efficient one; this will require it to run its fans at a slower speed, thus making less noise. For your case, get something with a muffler for your CPU fan (some of them have this weird "cone of silence" thing that sits above the CPU's fan and eats most of its noise pretty effectively). Again, I have one on my server. Since your components are relatively low-end and not overclocked, don't worry about having super-duper extra fans. Get something easy to clean (dust heats up your machine, forcing fans to run faster and louder). If you have a choice of fans, larger, slower fans make less noise per unit of airflow. I have a machine with 7 fans and the noisest one is the GPU fan (tiny, fast); the quietest is the huge one (200mm, 400rpm). You can probably get such a machine for $600-800 and it would be about 8-16 times as fast as your listed setup, excepting HDD access times which haven't improved much, though throughput has. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Mon May 04, 2009 11:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
Buy a Mac laptop. For storage, add a Drobo. Aside from the fact that it's using EFI instead of a classic BIOS it fully meets your needs. |
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| Author: | Prabhakar Ragde [ Tue May 05, 2009 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
I second wtd. Get a MacBook Pro and spend your time developing instead of fiddling with the hardware, OS, drivers, etc. (And if your budget won't stretch that far, the aluminum MacBook is quite nice.) |
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| Author: | andrew. [ Tue May 05, 2009 5:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
Get a Mac laptop. Since you're looking for something not too flashy and expensive go with the MacBook. Although it uses EFI instead of BIOS, you can install a program called rEFIt that allows you to multiboot with a whole bunch of OS's like Linux distros, Mac, Windows, etc. |
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| Author: | rdrake [ Tue May 05, 2009 8:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Old guy meets new machine |
...or he could just get a desktop which will be substantially cheaper and much less likely to get broken. It's also what he seems to want. He also wants Linux, which screams Thinkpad if he were even considering laptops. A quick check of newegg.ca gave me a machine for $689.99 with the following specs:
Comes with Vista Home Premium 64-bit which also fits in with your requirements. Repartition it down to < 50 GB and leave the rest to Linux. It lacks a monitor, but you can pick a decent one up for < $200 easily... or just reuse your old one. Good luck. |
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| Author: | andrew. [ Tue May 05, 2009 9:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
Oh, I didn't know that you wanted a desktop with Linux. In that case, do what rdrake said. Build a decent desktop. I normally buy from Tiger Direct and Canada Computers because I can go to the store and pick it up. Newegg is good as well but you have to have it shipped (which I don't like). You can also have it shipped with Tiger Direct and Canada Computers though. |
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| Author: | md [ Tue May 05, 2009 9:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
I recommend a raid5 setup on 3 500gb drives - gives you 1TB of storage, and yet is more reliable then 1TB drives (I wait a bit for the top of the line to become more reliable )
Put those in a desktop with a core i7 and your golden. |
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| Author: | btiffin [ Tue May 05, 2009 11:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
Thanks for all the inputs gentlemen. Holy crap ... 500gb drives are commodity units now?  Oh woe for the days of 360K floppies.
And yeah, I'd like a Mac, but that ain't what's in use at work, and I kinda want to dig in to details that will map closer to my day job reality. Once again, thanks everyone. I'll gladly accept more opinions, brand names, model numbers. I'll be thinking this over, far more than I have over the last few decades and when I make the buy I want to go in with a clue. I'll admit, I seem to have been livin' the low-life. So as long as no one gets electrocuted, I doubt I'll be dissappointed with the new street level machinery. 
Cheers Edit; typos |
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| Author: | Prabhakar Ragde [ Wed May 06, 2009 7:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Old guy meets new machine |
btiffin @ Tue May 05, 2009 11:57 pm wrote: And yeah, I'd like a Mac, but that ain't what's in use at work, and I kinda want to dig in to details that will map closer to my day job reality. Macs use Intel hardware now, and run Windows natively (though, on the rare occasion I have need for it, I prefer to run it virtualized). If they're banned at work, or if certain models are preferred, then you should outline your constraints. Otherwise, there's no reason to exclude them from consideration. |
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| Author: | BigBear [ Wed May 06, 2009 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
What do you mean by natetively? |
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| Author: | [Gandalf] [ Wed May 06, 2009 8:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Old guy meets new machine |
BigBear @ 2009-05-06, 7:53 am wrote: What do you mean by natetively?
It's natively, and as usual any internet search will give a decent answer... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_mode For example, you can't run Turing on Linux natively (at least with the commonly available versions), so you're stuck with emulators and such. |
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| Author: | BigBear [ Wed May 06, 2009 8:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
so you can run turing on mac natively? |
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| Author: | Tallguy [ Wed May 06, 2009 8:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
umm yeah!! mac now have intel chips, everything that windows runs so can macs |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Wed May 06, 2009 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
Tallguy, I wouldn't be so quick on that assumption. Everything Windows runs a Mac can run, to the extent that an Acer can run it, or a Dell. You still have to be running Windows on the Mac hardware to run those programs. Some, with minimal OS requirements can be run in emulation on OS X, but often with bugs and glitches. There is a bran I know of with great quality for a low price, the Nebula Power System. Core 2 Duo processor, 160gb HD (I think), a decent looking and functional case, etc. The store I work at sells them as a package with a keyboard, mouse and 19" LCD monitor for about $800. Optional upgrades include 22" monitor and subscriptions to Avast! and SuperAntiSpyware. We pre-load it with the Avast! demo, Nero, and do full updates on Windows before selling. we disable a lot of the crap as well. I'm sure we could aquire one without Windows to save even more money. |
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| Author: | DemonWasp [ Wed May 06, 2009 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
To clear up this whole "natively" thing: - You can run Windows on all recent Apple computers, including their laptops. You can multi-boot to run Windows directly on the hardware, or you can run it in a Virtual Machine (though this is not referred to as "natively" and carries some performance penalties). - You can run Turing on Windows natively. You must emulate on other operating systems, such as OSX and Linux. For places to order from, I still recommend building it yourself. It's pretty easy to get all the components you need at a bargain from places like NCIX or TigerDirect, both of which are Canadian and quite reputable. Here is a list of all the matchings you need to check. - The motherboard's form factor must match the case's. ATX boards will not fit in a mATX (micro-ATX) case, but mATX boards can usually be accommodated by an ATX case. - The CPU must be of the same slot type as the motherboard. For Intel chips, this is probably the LGA775 slot, which was most of the dual/quad-core Core2 lineup. For AMD chips, probably the AM2/AM2+ socket. - The RAM must match the motherboard's slot type (this means match DDR with DDR, DDR2 with DDR2, etc). - The drives must match the motherboard's interface, probably SATA for hard drives and PATA for optical drives (though SATA optical drives are becoming more common, they're nowhere near saturating even a lowly PATA connection. - Your power supply (PSU) must match the type required by the motherboard. As I recall, there are 20-pin and 24-pin; you will almost certainly be on 24-pin. - Any dedicated graphics board must match the interface provided by the motherboard. The most common at this point is the PCI-Express 16-lane (PCI-e x16), an expansion of the PCI standard to give much greater data-rate. As a rough recommendation, I might give the following options: PSU - cheap, supposedly silent, more than enough power - $65 Case - one of lots of choices with only minor differences. You can economize by getting a case with PSU, but it may be louder - $43 Motherboard - this is only one of a multitude of choices; it's cheap, gives you video, sound, network. It's mATX, which means small; I tend to prefer full ATX myself but that's just me - $59 CPU - fast CPU. You could go lower/cheaper if you felt the need - $161 RAM - dead cheap, gobs of it (4GB! huge!). You could go for 2x1GB or 1x2GB if you didn't need so much - $60 - 10 on a rebate. Monitor - 21.5" across, provides 1920x1080 (full HD video resolution, lots of screen real-estate), cheap - $230 Keyboard / Mouse - whatever you want - $?? Total: $620 + $30 shipping + however much you spend on keyboard / mouse - $10 mail-in rebate = probably $700. It's also a valuable experience to put together such a machine yourself. If you don't want that experience, consider someone else's suggestions over mine. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Wed May 06, 2009 11:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
Do yourself a favor when building a computer yourself, and get a power supply that is "modular" and allows you connect only the cables you need. This keeps the case tidier, allowing for better airflow. Also, it means that when it comes time to do maintenance, you can remove the cables without having to remove the power supply, if the cables are obstructing access to something else. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Wed May 06, 2009 12:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
Seriously, go the Mac notebook route. The portability will come in handy, and any Mac you can buy will blow your old system away in terms of capability. They're also among the most portable notebook systems (4.5-5.5 pounds, > 1" thick) you can find, given their power and capability. Short of spending $2500+ on a Panasonic Toughbook, you will not find a more well-engineered computer than the current crop of aluminum MacBooks and MacBook Pros. It will run Windows and Linux natively. It's also the only machine out there that'll run Mac OS X without a hassle. If you're going to do a massive upgrade after this much of a wait, you might as well check out what Apple's been doing. It's incredibly neat stuff. Also, with OS X being all UNIX-y, you may not need Debian as much as you think. Give it some consideration. You're going to want to spend time using your computer, rather than keeping it working. That's where you want a Mac. |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Wed May 06, 2009 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
There are many PSU's with 20 pin mobo power with an optional 4 extra pins that hook onto the side of the main connector, effectively eliminating the choice between 20- and 24-pin connectors. Many mobos also have both SATA and IDE ports, so that shouldn't be an issue (never heard PATA cables, does the 'P' stand for 'Parallel'?). SATA cables are nice because they're very small, though they can only have one device per cable (unlike IDE, which has master/slave cables). I do have to attest to the macbook and macbook pro. By far the best engineering in a laptop that I have ever seen. Not very modable, as there are no 'compartments' for the components. While most other laptops have 'bays' for the hard drive and optical drive so as to allow them to be removed with a single screw, the macbooks has to be completely taken apart to remove even the battery. Also, as I work in the repair sector at the moment, I can tell you that a mac has never come in for component failure beyond a dead hard drive, and never for software failure. Usually, the hard drive is too full and they want a backup and new drive, or they want some other upgrade. OH, and taking them apart, not a problem. Almost no cables to worry about (the previous generation had a few) and almost everything is attached to the mobo (the 'logic board'. Oh Steve, you make me laugh so...). Just the hard drive, optical drive and ram are not directly connected (I think the airport is removable too, not sure about that). well, I'm done my shpeel. |
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| Author: | Prabhakar Ragde [ Wed May 06, 2009 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Old guy meets new machine |
insectoid @ Wed May 06, 2009 1:29 pm wrote: Also, as I work in the repair sector at the moment, I can tell you that a mac has never come in for component failure beyond a dead hard drive, and never for software failure.
I had a model several years ago (2nd generation Aluminum PowerBook, I think, one of the old PowerPC models) whose motherboard failed (under warranty), and which had display problems due to a poor hinge design (intermittent enough that they could never correct it). But since then, I have had zero hardware problems (there are currently seven Macs being actively used by my family between work and home) and in nearly twenty years of using Macs, I have never had to take one in for software issues. |
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| Author: | btiffin [ Wed May 06, 2009 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
Hmm, The last Mac I had was an LC630 I got from a bud that was getting into PPC. Loved it. Slapped in the TV card, and with a click of the remote I had picture in picture in window. Watch the news, a Star Trek movie and keep working. And with a 19200 baud modem, it felt like I had to type fast to keep up with the connection speed. I handed the machine down to another. Good box.
You've all given me some good base info for the next few days of pondering. Cheers |
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| Author: | ecookman [ Sun May 17, 2009 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
any $400-$800 desktop from stores would do just fine for this price you can usually find something like a 2.2 GHZ processor 2gig of ram 200GB HDD decent graphics card CD/DVD R/W drive keyboard/mouse |
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| Author: | andrew. [ Mon May 18, 2009 1:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
Do not buy a computer built from the stores. They're just going to rip you off. Build it yourself if you don't want a Mac or a laptop. It's not hard to find parts, I normally buy from Tiger Direct, Canada Computers, newegg.ca, and ncix.ca. |
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| Author: | md [ Mon May 18, 2009 8:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Old guy meets new machine |
andrew. @ 2009-05-18, 1:36 pm wrote: Do not buy a computer built from the stores. They're just going to rip you off. Build it yourself if you don't want a Mac or a laptop. It's not hard to find parts, I normally buy from Tiger Direct, Canada Computers, newegg.ca, and ncix.ca.
Not entirely true - you can get quite good computers fairly cheap from stores. It all depends on your needs. You will get exactly what you want when you build it yourself however. |
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| Author: | ecookman [ Wed May 20, 2009 3:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
also, you won't have the problems of the hardware components working properly, or drivers and a mess of warranties. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Thu May 21, 2009 11:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Old guy meets new machine |
ecookman @ Thu May 21, 2009 4:40 am wrote: also, you won't have the problems of the hardware components working properly, or drivers and a mess of warranties.
You've never worked on a broken HP desktop, have you? |
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| Author: | Insectoid [ Fri May 22, 2009 9:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Old guy meets new machine |
You have more chance of the hardware working properly in a home-built machine than one bought from a store. Most brand-name PC's use dirt cheap parts that will fail long before expected. They are often built quickly and shoddily to get the most computers sold for the lowest price. MDG, Dell, HP, etc. are all guilty of this. If you ever have to re-install Windows on a machine, it will be a massive pain in the arse to find the drivers for it, while if you built your own, you have all the disks already. MDG computers don't come with a driver disk, nor do they offer driver downloads from their website. If you lose the disks from your components on a self-built machine, well, you know exactly what is inside it, and it's a bit of typing to download the drivers from the manufacturer's website. |
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