Computer Science Canada

Guelph... my chances?
Author:  Andrew_R [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Guelph... my chances?
Hey guys! I haven't seen a whole lot of applications on here for Guelph comp sci, which kinda worries me as well as makes me happy Razz Anyway, here's the dealio: I have only taken 6 courses this year, so each mark is going to be averaged into my "admission average" or what ever you wanna call it.

Last Semester
Physics = 75
Advanced Functions = 74
Philosophy = 82

Midterms this semester
Computer Science = 93
English = 84
Calculus = 64 Sad

Now if I'm correct, third round all of these marks will be averaged for my application, which brings me to approx. 78.3%...
Do I have a decent shot at getting into Guelph Comp Sci? I also filled out the SPF, had a Comp Sci Department award on it and a ton of sports MVPs and stuff... and yeah I know I'm kinda freakin out.
Author:  Clayton [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Guelph... my chances?
You'll probably be fine, I had a friend get accepted to Guelph with like a 70.01% average, so you'll probably be okay.
Author:  jernst [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guelph... my chances?
When I applied for undergrad (about 6 years ago now, lol man im getting old) I got in with an avg of about 80ish percent, my final avg ended up going down to around 78-79 so I think your probably fine. (ps I'm at Guelph now for my M.Sc. and will be there for my PhD in the fall, so maybe I'll see you around Razz)
Author:  Dark [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Guelph... my chances?
With your award in CS and ECs, you should be fine. They will probably take into consideration that you like CS and are competent judging by your high CS marks.

Get your calc mark up tho lol. If you are honestly struggling with MCV4U you are going to have to work extra hard in your math courses at University, so keep that in mind :O
Author:  Andrew_R [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guelph... my chances?
Thanks guys, I guess I'll just wait and see, should know somtime in the next couple weeks... and Dark, It's not that I have a problem with math, its that I have a problem with doing the math homework lol. Last semester my Advanced Functions mark was 61 a week before exams, and I brought it too a 74 by crackin down big time. And I realize that I won't be able to get away with this at University Razz
Author:  jernst [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Dark @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:36 pm wrote:
Get your calc mark up tho lol. If you are honestly struggling with MCV4U you are going to have to work extra hard in your math courses at University, so keep that in mind :O


+1, I had high 80's / 90's in high school math (including calc) and still got dominated in university
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Dark @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:36 pm wrote:
They will probably take into consideration that you like CS and are competent judging by your high CS marks.


High school CS marks mean nothing.

I looked up the record of eight students in the first-year, second-term CS course I just finished teaching who had the lowest computed final grades, all failures by a long shot (the final exam in this course involved mostly C coding, with no requested program or function being longer than twenty lines). One didn't take ICS4M. One had an ICS4M mark in the high 80's. Five had marks in the low-to-mid 90's. One had 100.
Author:  endless [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Prabhakar Ragde @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:16 pm wrote:
Dark @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:36 pm wrote:
They will probably take into consideration that you like CS and are competent judging by your high CS marks.


High school CS marks mean nothing.

I looked up the record of eight students in the first-year, second-term CS course I just finished teaching who had the lowest computed final grades, all failures by a long shot (the final exam in this course involved mostly C coding, with no requested program or function being longer than twenty lines). One didn't take ICS4M. One had an ICS4M mark in the high 80's. Five had marks in the low-to-mid 90's. One had 100.


interesting.
i have read the paper on how HS computer science may have a negative effect going into uni CS, but those figures are quite surprising.

although, i'm sure the majority of students enrolled in university CS probably took it in high school too, so that info may be a bit misleading.
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
endless @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:43 pm wrote:

i have read the paper on how HS computer science may have a negative effect going into uni CS, but those figures are quite surprising.


What paper is that?
Author:  endless [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Guelph... my chances?
http://compsci.ca/blog/the-disadvantages-of-high-school-programming/
Author:  Horus [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Prabhakar Ragde @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:16 pm wrote:
Dark @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:36 pm wrote:
They will probably take into consideration that you like CS and are competent judging by your high CS marks.


High school CS marks mean nothing.

I looked up the record of eight students in the first-year, second-term CS course I just finished teaching who had the lowest computed final grades, all failures by a long shot (the final exam in this course involved mostly C coding, with no requested program or function being longer than twenty lines). One didn't take ICS4M. One had an ICS4M mark in the high 80's. Five had marks in the low-to-mid 90's. One had 100.


I wonder if they teach how to use microsoft in ICS4M instead of programming. cause in TIK20 that's what I learned for most of the year b4 switching to turing and didn't even get into procedures.

but i think they should look at which high school you are in to see if your ICS4M mark is valid. Like for example in the case of those 7 students' high school and just mark that school's ICS4M marks as invalid. so that for other students their ICS4M mark can still be valid and can still be big for consideration.


and @endless u call that paper...?
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:28 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Guelph... my chances?
Quote:
High school CS marks mean nothing.

Getting high marks in high school CS doesn't mean you'll do well in university CS. But, on the other hand, consider someone who takes ICS4M and gets 60%. That person more than likely has a much lower chance of doing well in first year CS than someone who gets 80-100.

High school CS does mean something. If you count high school calculus for something, then you should do the same for high school CS.
Author:  Nick [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Horus @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:07 pm wrote:
endless u call that paper...?


No, Prabhakar Ragde did
Author:  Tony [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
@Nick: huh?
endless @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:43 pm wrote:
i have read the paper on...

the word "paper" implies an academic piece of work, with research and actual numbers.
Author:  endless [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Tony @ Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:54 am wrote:

endless @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:43 pm wrote:
i have read the paper on...

the word "paper" implies an academic piece of work, with research and actual numbers.


i'm deeply sorry for my misuse of the word "paper". sorry for any confusion i may have caused.
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Horus @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:07 pm wrote:

I wonder if they teach how to use microsoft in ICS4M instead of programming. cause in TIK20 that's what I learned for most of the year b4 switching to turing and didn't even get into procedures.


There are curricular guidelines for ICS4M (vague though they are) that are supposed to prevent that, but abuses do occur. It's more likely that the mark is based on writing some big game using Java Swing classes or something like that. I've had students tell me that their ICS4M teacher just assigned readings in some book and left them alone in the lab.

Quote:

but i think they should look at which high school you are in to see if your ICS4M mark is valid. Like for example in the case of those 7 students' high school and just mark that school's ICS4M marks as invalid. so that for other students their ICS4M mark can still be valid and can still be big for consideration.


Won't help unless they know that the same teacher is teaching it in subsequent years using the same materials, and they know something about the quality of those materials.

Gandalf wrote:
Getting high marks in high school CS doesn't mean you'll do well in university CS. But, on the other hand, consider someone who takes ICS4M and gets 60%. That person more than likely has a much lower chance of doing well in first year CS than someone who gets 80-100.


A low ICS4M mark is more meaningful, perhaps. How often are these given out? I would think that ICS3M acts as a sort of screen. But I'm only seeing the records of people with 80+ high school averages.

Quote:
High school CS does mean something. If you count high school calculus for something, then you should do the same for high school CS.


The situations are not comparable. There are more teachers qualified to teach calculus, there's less variation in how it is taught, and more connection between the subject in high school and in university. But, yes, under the new Ontario curriculum, performance in Vectors and Calculus is less relevant than it was for OAC Calculus.
Author:  Andrew_R [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Guelph... my chances?
haha, wow this topic has completely gone off on a tangent... I'd have to side with Gandalf though, at least for a group of students in the same class, with the same teacher. The ones who get higher marks are obviously going to do better then the other students... Also, I completely disagree with that "paper", or whatever you guys decided it was. Learning the basics like variables, arrays, functions, all that jazz is definitely going to serve as a good intro for university. I know what I've learned in CS has helped me understand syntax and structure in other languages... I can't see how someone with no prior experience would do better at least.
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Prabhakar Ragde @ 2009-04-30, 7:21 am wrote:
Gandalf wrote:
Getting high marks in high school CS doesn't mean you'll do well in university CS. But, on the other hand, consider someone who takes ICS4M and gets 60%. That person more than likely has a much lower chance of doing well in first year CS than someone who gets 80-100.


A low ICS4M mark is more meaningful, perhaps. How often are these given out? I would think that ICS3M acts as a sort of screen. But I'm only seeing the records of people with 80+ high school averages.

Marks below 70 in high school ICS4M are pretty common, at least in my experience. It's just that those students don't normally end up going to university for CS, never mind Waterloo or similar.

As I remember, the people who are good students but don't take a real interest in CS get 70s, maybe 80s. The people with higher marks are those that have taken a liking to programming, at least. That leaves everyone else below the low 70s range. These are people who took ICS3M and decided that it was worth continuing, for whatever reason.
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Andrew_R @ Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:22 am wrote:
Also, I completely disagree with that "paper", or whatever you guys decided it was. Learning the basics like variables, arrays, functions, all that jazz is definitely going to serve as a good intro for university. I know what I've learned in CS has helped me understand syntax and structure in other languages... I can't see how someone with no prior experience would do better at least.


The blog post was a well-written report on actual experience, authored by a talented and thoughtful student. You are dismissing it on what basis exactly?

For an earlier offering of that course, I computed the average final grade for students who had ICS3M and students who did not. The ones who did not have ICS3M did slightly better.

There are no variables and no arrays in that course. No assignment statements. No loops. No print statements. No reading from input. One of the most common complaints I heard from students with prior experience was "But I can only do one thing in a function! How do I do two things?"

For CIS 1500 at Guelph, you are probably right, your high school experience will help. It just won't help everywhere.
Author:  tenniscrazy [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guelph... my chances?
I read the article. I think that even if you do pick up some bad habits from high school, it can't be worse than not having any programming experience. I mean, how stubborn do you have to be to not be able to learn how to optimize code and comment and whatnot. but it's obvious that they need a much more regulated curriculum. I couldn't imagine working at a university and trying to decide how to weigh the comp sci marks of students applying. We have had sufficient comp sci teachers for most of high school who at least have a background in programming and computers, but i feel sorry for kids who don't
Author:  Andrew_R [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Guelph... my chances?
Prabhakar Ragde, I don't think you understood me, I wasn't dismissing it, I just thought it was absolutely hilarious that people on here were arguing over the use of the term paper. I don't know, maybe it's just me. lol
Author:  Andrew_R [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Guelph... my chances?
I mean, common! The whole computer science discussion has very little to do with the original topic (well a little, but not much), let alone a discussion on the proper use of "paper". I don't care at all, just think its funny Razz
Author:  SJ [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Guelph... my chances?
ok
1. andrew, i think you'll be fine for guelph. cross your fingers and sit tight.
2. i agree that high school cs is a good intro, but, each class in 3m and 4m has students with very different interests (ie those there for marks or those there for knowledge), and the teachers' skills vary too much, the material covered in different schools vary too much. this much variation means that you cannot guarantee anything about your performance in university. PR, if you look up the ics3m/4m grades for the top students in your class, i think they'll be similar to those of the bottom students you analyzed. Furthermore, I have a feeling that that holds for any 8 randomly selected students. if that's true, then that's a solid demonstration of how little the correlation is between high school cs grades and uni cs grades.
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Andrew_R @ Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:12 am wrote:
Prabhakar Ragde, I don't think you understood me, I wasn't dismissing it, I just thought it was absolutely hilarious that people on here were arguing over the use of the term paper.


If you think that, then maybe you should say that instead of what I quoted in my 8:40am post, which is pretty clearly dismissing the content of the blog post rather than being amused at how people are referring to it.

tenniscrazy wrote:
I read the article. I think that even if you do pick up some bad habits from high school, it can't be worse than not having any programming experience. I mean, how stubborn do you have to be to not be able to learn how to optimize code and comment and whatnot.


I love all this simple denial in the face of evidence. The social-science summatives you guys write must be about three sentences long.

There are many kinds of stubborn. You're thinking of the "won't apply prior knowledge" kind. You're not thinking of the "insists on applying prior knowledge when it doesn't apply" kind. Then there's the "There's no Microsoft certification in this so it's useless, but I need the diploma so I'm just going to try to pass the exams" kind, the "I can't posture about this with my online friends so I'm going to neglect my assignment in favour of something I can posture about" kind, and the "I can't Google the answer to this so obviously no one cares about it except my fellow students from whom I will get the answer" kind.

People with no prior experience tend to accept what's being taught, hunker down and do the work, and do well in the course.
Author:  Prabhakar Ragde [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
SJ @ Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:00 am wrote:
PR, if you look up the ics3m/4m grades for the top students in your class, i think they'll be similar to those of the bottom students you analyzed. Furthermore, I have a feeling that that holds for any 8 randomly selected students. if that's true, then that's a solid demonstration of how little the correlation is between high school cs grades and uni cs grades.


Yep. Graph attached (if I can get it to work). But that mark distribution among the top students doesn't negate the hypothesis "High school CS marks are a good predictor of university CS marks". Among the bottom students, it does.
Author:  SJ [ Fri May 01, 2009 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Guelph... my chances?
true. interesting graph. i can't plot a curve to that haha. the data is pretty spread out (wow the bottom of the class actually failed by a lot!). now i'm just a little intimidated. i rmbr the lowest mark in my ics4m class was somewhere in the high 70s.
Author:  Andrew_R [ Wed May 06, 2009 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Guelph... my chances?
Well guys, I got in, just thought I'd keep ya updated Very Happy guess i might see u around somtime jernst!
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Wed May 06, 2009 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guelph... my chances?
Congratulations Andrew!
Author:  jernst [ Wed May 06, 2009 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Guelph... my chances?
Andrew_R @ Wed May 06, 2009 5:24 pm wrote:
Well guys, I got in, just thought I'd keep ya updated Very Happy guess i might see u around somtime jernst!


Awesome, congrats...my office is on the third floor in one of the wireless labs, feel free to drop by sometime..ill probably be there everyday starting in sept.

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