Picking up on C++ after java isn't all too bad.
Computer Science Canada Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
| Author: | porpoises [ Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
I am reading an article talking about there are CS courses escaping C++ but teach java instead because it is too hard. Is it ture? what do you feel about C++? http://quantjob.blogspot.com/2009/02/sventh-thing-i-hate-about-your-cv-you.html |
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| Author: | DemonWasp [ Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
First, C++ is popular. Or rather, using a bastardised mishmash of C and C++ is very popular. Second, C++ is a difficult language not because of the concepts involved (it's fairly simple), but because correctly implementing a program - in particular, debugging that program - often relies on the programmer knowing exactly what's happening behind the scenes. You often need to know exactly what the compiler is doing, exactly what memory looks like, exactly how the syntax for X behaves, etc. This problem becomes exacerbated when you're dealing with multiple platforms, using different compilers and their various "quirks" (a generous term; I might also use "huge #$%!ups"). The difficulty stems from poor encapsulation. Much of this is by-design: C and C++ were intended to be relatively low-level languages, barely shielding the programmer against the intricacies and insanities of the actual CPU. To my mind, this makes C++ sort of an odd duck: it's both low-level (close to hardware) and high-level (OOP); it doesn't appear to do either particularly well, C being better for low-level and pretty well anything except Turing being better for high-level. That said, while C++ is difficult and perhaps not a terribly great plan in the first place (being split as it is between high- and low-level), it is full of the sorts of knowledge about computers that you just don't seem to find anywhere else. In the land of Java and other high-level languages, abstractions abound, and the code you write is more oriented towards a pseudo-machine that does exactly what the code says; the ugly reality of the CPU is managed by some sort of virtual machine layer. While that's way easier to actually write code in, it only teaches the learner about the system itself, not about anything underlying it. Learning Java teaches you about the JVM (a fairly decent piece of engineering in itself, putting aside what you may think of the language) and what a good set of library classes and functionality looks like. You learn nearly nothing of the machine, of the operating system, of how the network actually functions, etc; C++ forces you to learn all of this as prerequisites to using it correctly. This is probably why schools have started turning to "easier" languages like Java: they don't force you to learn the immense mountain of information that C++ does. A student can focus on the data structure or algorithm at hand, in an environment free of the distraction and complication of C++, particularly in debugging C++ applications. The class moves faster and covers more ground, with students getting a better grasp on the material. Later courses can cover C++, once students know more about processors, compilers, operating systems, memory, cache, networks, disks and IO controllers and all of the other crunchy bits of the machine. To be honest, C++ also really sucks at multithreading. Like, really really sucks. It should NOT be the language of choice for a class on, say, Concurrent Programming. I hesitate to recommend any particular language, having not coded any parallelised programs myself (I've been working on one at work, in C++, on multiple platforms...ask me how that's going!), but Java seems to do a pretty nice job of it. |
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| Author: | jbking [ Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
I can understand the first programming language to teach someone being something other than C/C++ since they are languages where it is easy to shoot yourself in the foot if you aren't careful with pointers which can be a rather advanced concept compared to say writing a program to take in user input, perform some basic operations on it and output the results. I can also understand that there is some value in going into other languages and programming paradigms which is I think part of the point in the article, do we get exposure to various styles of programming in our undergrad years. I think for myself the answer is yes where at Waterloo I went from Pascal first year to Modula-3 for second year and C/C++ for 3rd year in programming courses x4y course names. I think there was a variation on C++ called micro-C++ that was used for Concurrent Programming(CS 342) back when I was at Waterloo. |
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| Author: | porpoises [ Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
I am getting very professional answers here. Thanks alot. I wonder after your class in C++ can we take a job (or graduate job) requiring C++? If a computer science student may think C++ difficult, how about a chem eng graduate like me try to teach myself in C++? I did coursework in Matlab, C, Forturn by the way. How much skill needed to be like a proper software engineer? I am a chem eng grad with some programming skills through coursework and thesis. since the job I was called by agency are all programming, i want to know how far i am away to turn into a software engineer. I am quite interested in programming aswell. |
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| Author: | DemonWasp [ Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
You can probably pick up C++ on your own or in a class (as I did), but until you start working at a job where you're forced to really use it and deal with the full toolchain, you won't really know much about it. The toolchain here refers to the compiler, linker, archiver, loader, debugger, build tool, etc; they're a clever set of tools designed to make it less painful. Experience in C will help, as will experience with UNIX platforms (BSD, Linux, Solaris, AIX, whatever). In particular, experience with make or Jam is probably vital. Knowing C++ is (WAY) less important than knowing how to program. I don't know how extensive your coursework is, but there's a good chance you never did much in the way of "real" programming. If you don't know what a Binary Search Tree, Breadth-First Search, AVL Tree, Trie, Queue, or Linked List are, that's a good indicator you've got most of your learning on the "process / algorithms / data structures / how computers actually work" side; if you know all of those, then it's more about learning specific tools. Being a proper software engineer is pretty heavy; you'd need to take quite a few courses as there isn't much overlap with ChemEng in most universities. If you're interested in the topic (and have the resources - time and money) to do it, go right ahead. It's challenging, but if you're motivated it's a good kind of challenging. @jbking: Yeah, I've heard of micro-C++. I'm hesitant to remark on it, having never used it, but I'm not a fan of C++ in general and I don't expect any homebrewed variant to improve the situation much. UWaterloo also offers a "languages" course in 4th year that exposes students to a variety of different languages and programming paradigms; I haven't taken it yet, but I intend to. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html |
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| Author: | jbking [ Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
After my class in C++, it is possible to get a job using C++ though it can depend a bit on how deep a knowledge is required. For example, if the job is building C++ compilers, then after one class you likely won't have all the pieces to do that. There will always be some on the job training, which can be trial by fire where you are given problems and have to figure things out on the spot in addition to more structured situations for learning how a specific company does things, and what I got back in 1998 at my first job after graduating was no different. I was using Visual Studio 6.0 involving MFC stuff that I hadn't heard of before on an O/S called NT 4.0 that took a few weeks before I was contributing code. Anyone can get some of the basics of C++ down. There are simple programs that shouldn't be hard to write like reversing a string or testing if a number is prime or a few other things that most would call easy. The key is to able to absorb new knowledge and apply it in various ways. Algorithm starters like "Divide and conquer," "Dynamic Programming," and "Being greedy," are things that aren't language specific but can be useful for learning how to solve problems. Another side of things to learn is the Software Development Life Cycle which has a few main parts: Gather requirements, Analyse and design solutions, implement solutions, test and deploy. Don't worry if some of those don't mean much yet as you could google any of them to get oodles of things about them. To be a proper software engineer, I don't know really as the engineer part has specific interpretations in Canada. My programming experience was years before university and years during university though I suspect it could be distilled into a crash course that one could take over the span of a few months if they spent enough time on the basics. |
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| Author: | Dark [ Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
Picking up on C++ after java isn't all too bad. |
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| Author: | md [ Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
Java teaches a LOT of bad habbits, but then so does just about any battery. C++ is no harder or easier then C or assembler or any other language that's close to the hardware. In fact, C++ is slightly easier to pick up then C, IFF you have an understanding of OOP. 'Course, once you have a familiarity with any ALGOL type language it should be fairly easy to pick up another one. |
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| Author: | SJ [ Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
Dark @ Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:36 pm wrote: Picking up on C++ after java isn't all too bad.
agreed. to me, java feels like motherland, c++ is canada. and c++ isn't "too difficult," the concept is pretty much the same as java, or heck, any language. |
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| Author: | rdrake [ Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
I believe the argument that C++ is too difficult to learn after Java because Java won't let you hurt yourself at all. Sure it has absolutely ridiculous restrictions but it won't let you hurt yourself. C++ in itself is a beast. |
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| Author: | md [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
I think the larger issue is not what language you use (though Java is far from good for teaching this), but that students are not taught how to think or problem solve. Instead of having an understanding of how a bubble sort works or how to efficiently search an array, students simply copy and paste code (at the behest of profs even!) and hope it works. I think in large part this is because students are lazy, and profs for the most part don't care if their students actually know how to program instead of just knowing how to copy and paste code into some semblence of a working program (and even that isn't usually required). Unfortunately I cannot think of a good way of both rewarding a prof for actually teaching well, and at the same time discouraging them from helping students by writing the code or showing them how to copy this bit from this program into this other bit in this second program. Or, worst of all, assign programming projects where you can pass with a 80% simply by having very good documentation and a good presentation - and no working code. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
It's worth noting that C++ is a big, complex beast of a language. Learning it takes a lot of time and dedication and the ability to look past frustration to see long-term goals, and if you can't summon those attributes in yourself, you may wish to give your choice of careers a second thought. It will not be the last such challenge you will face, though it may be your first taste. That said... C++ does not convey any particularly great programming wisdom that cannot be gleaned elsewhere. If you find it frustratingly difficult, you may wish to evaluate why you are learning C++, and if your efforts are not better spent elsewhere. In short, you need to be able to deal with the kind of frustrations C++ can throw your way, but they don't need to come from C++. |
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| Author: | Prabhakar Ragde [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
md @ Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:58 am wrote: I think in large part this is because students are lazy, and profs for the most part don't care if their students actually know how to program instead of just knowing how to copy and paste code into some semblence of a working program (and even that isn't usually required). Since I am feeling less cynical than usual today, let's put this in a positive way. Students say, "What does learning a new language get me that I don't get with Java?", and since the answer (unless the new language is radically different, which in most instances where this question is asked is not the case) is usually something like "Java is too slow for doing this in production code," or "Not every workplace uses Java," there is an obvious incentive to put it off. Professors say, "The important thing is understanding this concept and being able to translate it into some semblance of an implementation. Now, I can teach them the language in which this concept is usually implemented, but that will take time away from the real subject of this course. They already know Java. Let's use that." When I learned computer science, we were hit with something like six or seven languages in the first four courses, and after that we were expected to be able to pick up the rudiments of programming in a new language by ourselves, so the professors could teach the concepts and yet ask us to use them in a language that made sense. Somewhere along the line that idea went away, and even those who are saying "Not just Java" tend to be okay with "Just C++", or "Java and C++". |
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| Author: | wtd [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
I agree with everything in that post, and would encourage aspiring CS students to become polyglots. Programming languages are tools. Even if you have the most powerful hammer, you're no match for the person with a diverse toolkit. As a corollary to this, if you're going to have a diverse toolkit, it is often helpful to choose tools that don't take a long time to learn to use. The quicker and easier it is to pick them up, the more tools you'll have at your disposal. |
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| Author: | btiffin [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
Ditto wtd; with an old guy rambling caveat: Pick a language and strive for expertise. 10,000 hours is a lot of hours. For C++ 10,000 hours would be just about right IMHO to be able to run a team. I'd fear being under any lead designer that didn't have that "expert" level for a project of any significant size. To be honest, as old guy, I'd simply walk away without that leadership in place as the project is destined for spectacular FAIL. And expertise counts both for development in the language and development for the domain in question. Case Study: I was very fortunate during my early years. Our polyFORTH application project was staffed by young inexperienced developers. Smart, as most programmers are, but lacking expertise. By fluke of fortune, for about half a year before we went into production, there was a strike. Our development nerd cubicles were deemed to be a picket line crossing security risk so we were moved to the office sitting right beside the users of our future system. We gained enough domain expertise in that six months that 20+ years later, that system is still in production doing useful, what it was planned for, work. I can't count the number of replacement system attempts (C++ usually, but that isn't really the point ... it's the domain expertise levels that are important) that have failed to get to production status so far. I have doubts about the current efforts, as young talent seems to get a lot of attention in corporate circles and old timers with "out of date" technology expertise are not relied on heavily enough in the fast paced computer arena. Domain expertise seems to be ignored in favour of recent edumacation in the tools of the moment. Cheers |
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| Author: | Zeroth [ Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
(Offtopic) Ah, someone else toting around that 10,000 hours nugget. Its a pretty useful statistic. It also means that I know to look for experience, not "youth" or "drive". (/offtopic) I really don't have anything to offer that hasn't been said already, sorry. |
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| Author: | Sniper4Life [ Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
wtd...and tony.. can i ask you 2 some personal questions? when did YOU guys...start having an interest in computer science? i just wanna kno 
and uhh...btffin...you too 
and like also starting to code(simple files...) like batch files and things of that sort... |
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| Author: | matt271 [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
what i dont like about c++ is its lack of docs well i dont think its so much a lack of docs, but the docs are not all in 1 place. i like php because php has all its docs in 1 place i like java because it has javadoc. javadoc is so nice cuz its all online in 1 place. and any 3erd party package u use, has the java docs right in the soruce. so your ide can read them on the fly. also all javadocs are in the same format. if c++ had something like javadoc, i would def use it. |
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| Author: | wtd [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
Sniper4Life @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:28 am wrote: wtd...and tony..
can i ask you 2 some personal questions? when did YOU guys...start having an interest in computer science? i just wanna kno I wrote a program for the TI-82/83 graphing calculator my senior year in high school in AP Calculus for calculating areas under a curve. It was in use for five years after I graduated, and my calculus instructor required every student to have it installed on their calculator. I think after that they standardized on a calculator which broke my program, and hell if I was gonna fix it. 
That was the start. |
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| Author: | Analysis Mode [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
well to answer this topic's question, obviously not, otherwise it wouldn't be the most popular programming language. |
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| Author: | matt271 [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
wtd @ Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:36 pm wrote: I wrote a program for the TI-82/83 graphing calculator my senior year in high school in AP Calculus for calculating areas under a curve. It was in use for five years after I graduated, and my calculus instructor required every student to have it installed on their calculator. I think after that they standardized on a calculator which broke my program, and hell if I was gonna fix it.
 how did ur program work? like what made it different then the existing features the TI 83 has for numerical integration? i am getting interested in that area of comp sci now so im curious what other ppl have done. |
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| Author: | btiffin [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
Sniper4Life @ Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:28 pm wrote: wtd...and tony..
can i ask you 2 some personal questions? when did YOU guys...start having an interest in computer science? i just wanna kno
and uhh...btffin...you too
and like also starting to code(simple files...) like batch files and things of that sort... Old guy reminiscing mode Bumped into a Radio Shack full colour glossy for the TRS-80 Model 1 in about 1977 when I was 14. It was about 10 pages and included the list of BASIC commands included in the ROM (which where also pretty much the "OS" features). That summer I saved all my working on a fish tug money and bought me one that September. Along with the machine the only software on cassette that I picked up was a thing called "TBug", a debugger. It wasn't many minutes after powering up and CLOADing the TBug that I figured out I had to get an assembler and write some real code before a debugger would be of much use. So, a few more night jobs later and I had an assembler and a Z-80 book. By the second day, BASIC had completely lost it's lustre as a "thing for kids". TBug didn't cut it either, so I started to write a debugger. It had the unique feature of loading in hi memory or lo memory, and being on 16K Model 1, the 1K of debug code and system overhead, left about 12K of nothing but blissful work space. Sadly for me, the assembler editor took up too much room so I had to assemble the debugger as two separate files (meaning I had to manually hardcode a few of the symbol addresses into the second source file). That DEBUG-HILO project got me sent to the first ever IBM sponsored Computer Category of the Canada Wide Science Fair, but that wasn't till a few years later in 1981. My high school didn't have any programming classes until that same year, and being in Grade 13, getting 100% in a Grade 9 level computer class was a cake walk. The teacher had no idea what to try and teach me, so I got to spend the class writing a special project for and with my Electronics teacher instead. By then, I had read books on Fortran, COBOL, Pascal, C, SNOBOL, and whatever else I could get my grubbies on. I preferred Coherent over MS-DOS (but until they choked the life out OS/2 in the mid 90's, I was counted in the pro Microsoft fanboi nerd herd. Now I see them as nothing but a "suffer no other software to live" mentality company that stifles innovation with every dollar they can muster. IMHO personal computing is about 10 years behind where it should be, and I'll use this opportunity to rant on that anyone that thinks the developer freebies (all pretty nice systems, I'll admit) offered by MS are a good thing, I personally think it is akin to taking candy from a stranger. A stranger with ulterior motives. Go for freedom and use other systems if you are able. Tell your bosses the same thing. Inform them that you know this old guy that thinks .NET is nothing but a better mousetrap. If they think they are more efficient for it, ask them how they like their cage and hamster wheel.) Just kidding on the last bit. Never openly shame management; not smart, not professional. When you trade your time for someone else's money, your personal opinions are part of that trade. I knew I was going to try for Waterloo when I was in grade 9 ... couldn't wait to get my hands on System/370 and to talk to someone that might know more than I did at the time. At Waterloo, I scored 11 out of 10 on my first 6809 assignment and things in computer science went well. The math on the other hand was a challenge. As was the chem, especially organics in second year.  I then sadly took an opportunity for full time work in Ottawa at the end of my third semester. So I have no degree, a small regret now. (Not in terms of getting work ... there is work a plenty, but in terms of a simple regret for not completing the program when time and life would have afforded.)
Cheers |
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| Author: | wtd [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
matt271 @ Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:15 am wrote: wtd @ Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:36 pm wrote: I wrote a program for the TI-82/83 graphing calculator my senior year in high school in AP Calculus for calculating areas under a curve. It was in use for five years after I graduated, and my calculus instructor required every student to have it installed on their calculator. I think after that they standardized on a calculator which broke my program, and hell if I was gonna fix it.
how did ur program work? I don't remember. That was over ten years ago, after all. |
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| Author: | Sniper4Life [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
so btiffin what do you suggest i do to improve my understanding of computer science? like im alrdy regularly reading online articles and talking with experts(aka you people )...and im practicing python daily....but it just doesnt seem like im doing it right...
i need to buy books...danm it...always forget to go to Chapters to buy a book 
and lol so btffin...your a bit younger than my dad is then just a little bit
and also wtd...didnt u start with compsci when you were 18? |
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| Author: | Analysis Mode [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
Sniper4Life @ Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:36 pm wrote: so btiffin what do you suggest i do to improve my understanding of computer science?
like im alrdy regularly reading online articles and talking with experts(aka you people )...and im practicing python daily....but it just doesnt seem like im doing it right...
i need to buy books...danm it...always forget to go to Chapters to buy a book
and lol so btffin...your a bit younger than my dad is then just a little bit
and also wtd...didnt u start with compsci when you were 18? In which areas do you want to incrase your understanding? ALgorithms? OOP? Are you trying to prepare for CS contests? |
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| Author: | Sniper4Life [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
well that...im not sure...im still on a road of self discovery......and...why not...all?
algorithms are still part of computer science... |
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| Author: | btiffin [ Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | RE:Is C++ too dificult to be popular? |
My suggestion ... and this does not suit everyone, but it's fun. Assembler. Learn how a chip works. You only need to load a register, add some number, store the value somewhere. If you find that neat, while in a debugger, your well on your way to compsci mastery, in my old guy opinion. After a basic add and store, try a few compare and branch instructions. Feel the power. Then perhaps, forget you ever need to do such low level things when you evaluate a Ruby script, but know how things work behind the scenes. Perhaps write some C and examine the output of the -S option. See if you can follow how high level code maps down to the assembler and where your code is relative to all the cruft that compilers may add on your behalf when producing friendly executables. And moving back on topic a little...knowing how a chip works will make any C++ you write, oh so much better. Why? Because the C part of C++ is very much a language of the hardware. Knowing that helps, a lot. And it carries upwards into the land of classes, inheritance, polymorphisms and all the other very high level complexities of C++ development. Cheers |
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