Computer Science Canada

Turing shouldn't be taught as a starter language anymore.
Author:  S_Grimm [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Turing shouldn't be taught as a starter language anymore.
Vote "yes" or "no". No posts that are just "Turing sucks." If you post, enter a valid reason.

My opinon :
No, because Turing teaches bad habits, like not indenting properly, not double checking the code, because Turing will tell you exactly whats wrong when you run it. I think that Java would be better to teach as a starter language.
Author:  delparnel [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turing shouldn't be taught as a starter language anymore.
I don't think it should have ever been taught as a starter language.

Languages like Java and Python teach better habits, and try to get rid of the "make it work" path that many people take when writing code.
Author:  Dan [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
I voted no becues it is no longer supported by Holt Soft so the langue is effectively dead unless holt gives out the source code and a group starts working on it.

Turing does have some advantages in how simple graphics are and how fast you can get coding somthing. In other langues doing GUI or graphics can be complex and require outside APIs.

As for bad habits, the only ones i see turing giving students is the idea that a complier is the same as an IDE and they don't learn how to complie things from the comand line.

I don't think turing hurts studetns ablity to indent properly, it might make it easy for them to do with it's auto indenting feature but that at least shows them how it should be.

I don't buy the not double checking code either, almost all compliers i have ever used tell you when somthing is wrong and try to do there best to explaint what.

Personaly i think ruby or python would make good starting langues for grade 10s and Java, C and C++ should be thrown in at higher levels.
Author:  Vermette [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
I voted no along the same lines as Tony: The lack of support is troubling. There are other starter languages that are still widely supported and accessible to the young beginner crowd. It's not the responsibility of the language to enforce coding conventions like indentation.

Ruby and Python would be fine choices. An overlooked and surprisingly powerful choice is Javascript (the language is better than you probably think). What's necessary is the ability for new students is painless IO, which Turing has.

Really though, the most important goal in high school CS is to expose students to the absolute core concepts of modern languages and programming techniques, and Turning served that goal well for its time (for me, 2000). Those students that get bitten by the bug learn quickly to migrate to more powerful languages anyways when they want to learn more abstract aspects, and there's nothing to stop a teacher from making those options available to eager students.
Author:  btiffin [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
I polled No. I'm of the opinion that the first exposure to computer programming should be Assembler.

AND I want students from Ontario to have a fair shake at getting jobs the day they leave school.

Cheers
Author:  md [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
btiffin @ 2008-11-04, 1:53 pm wrote:
I polled No. I'm of the opinion that the first exposure to computer programming should be Assembler.

AND I want students from Ontario to have a fair shake at getting jobs the day they leave school.

Cheers

This. Teach programming from the bottom up. Assember (can) be very simple and strait forward, and it gets you into the habit of thinking like a computer.
Author:  Dan [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
md @ 4th November 2008, 2:06 pm wrote:
btiffin @ 2008-11-04, 1:53 pm wrote:
I polled No. I'm of the opinion that the first exposure to computer programming should be Assembler.

This. Teach programming from the bottom up. Assember (can) be very simple and strait forward, and it gets you into the habit of thinking like a computer.


I like the bottom up teaching idea as well but my worry with it is that it would scare away students. Alot of students taking computer science in high school do not know much about what computer programming is and persetning it at a level as low as assembly could make alot drop out and lower enrolment rates.


Vermette wrote:

I voted no along the same lines as Tony The lack of support is troubling.


I am starting to think there is a sick joke going around here on me. Crying or Very sad
Author:  S_Grimm [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turing shouldn't be taught as a starter language anymore.
Quote:
I am starting to think there is a sick joke going around here on me.

Other than the spelling mistakes?????
Maybe.............................................
Author:  Vermette [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
Dan @ November 4th 2008, 14:37 wrote:

Vermette wrote:

I voted no along the same lines as Tony The lack of support is troubling.


I am starting to think there is a sick joke going around here on me. Crying or Very sad


Oh man, I chuckle to myself where I saw others doing it, and now here I am... Embarassed
Author:  S_Grimm [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
lets get off the "pick on Tony" subject, shall we? As much fun as it is, it sort of defeats the ppurpose of this poll. I'll create another one called "Is there a joke on Tony. Yes or No?" later.
Author:  Zeroth [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
A\V @ Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:35 pm wrote:
lets get off the "pick on Dan" subject, shall we? As much fun as it is, it sort of defeats the ppurpose of this poll. I'll create another one called "Is there a joke on Dan. Yes or No?" later.


Fixed.
Author:  S_Grimm [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
oh. sorry Tony. I meant Dan. So like Zeroth Said lets get off the "pick on Dan" subject, shall we? As much fun as it is, it sort of defeats the ppurpose of this poll. I'll create another one called "Is there a joke on Dan. Yes or No?" later.
Author:  md [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
Dan @ 2008-11-04, 2:37 pm wrote:
md @ 4th November 2008, 2:06 pm wrote:
btiffin @ 2008-11-04, 1:53 pm wrote:
I polled No. I'm of the opinion that the first exposure to computer programming should be Assembler.

This. Teach programming from the bottom up. Assember (can) be very simple and strait forward, and it gets you into the habit of thinking like a computer.


I like the bottom up teaching idea as well but my worry with it is that it would scare away students. Alot of students taking computer science in high school do not know much about what computer programming is and persetning it at a level as low as assembly could make alot drop out and lower enrolment rates.


See I think this would happen too - but I don't think it's bad. There are a lot of people out there who simply can't grasp the step-by-step nature of programming. They have too much difficulty with the logic and end up as horrible programmers. Is it wrong to artificially exclude them? Possibly. But I cannot see how it's wrong to start off by teaching how to program at the most basic level and letting anyone who can't figure it out fail. I think we'd end up with better programmers too - once you see how C's functions or C++'s classes (and joyous templates!) work at an assembly level you really get a much better feel for how you should apply them and why.
Author:  Vertico [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turing shouldn't be taught as a starter language anymore.
I somewhat agree with the assembly method mentioned.

Back in high school, we where taught Java and Assembly. Although majority of the class did not like Assembly, I found it to be quite useful and educational.

From what I can tell, I was the only one from that Assembly class who continued down the compsci path.
Author:  jbking [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
I wonder if there are some Commodore PETs around that someone could do some assembly programming on. Ah, those are the memories...
Author:  S_Grimm [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
my school has one somewhere.........
Author:  wtd [ Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
I voted no, but anyone who thinks that simply using a different language would result in less inclination to write programs that only accomplish the stated goal through brute force is kidding themselves.

You can write monstrous code in Java or Python, or Ruby. Granted, they make it easier to do things the right way, but without proper direction students will write unstructured code in those languages.
Author:  ecookman [ Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
WELL HERE IS THE DOUBBLE EDGED SWORED


turing is good to start people on because i have tones of friends that couldn't program their way out of a paper bag with a map and a tour guide while they are on a leash...


it is good to learn what programming is and how it works like how to arrange your logic and make it work...



the negitive

unlike how i started...lemme explaine


my friend found the code on the internet....
X=msgbox ("hello",0+16"box title)
and then put that into notepad and save as a .vbs

so here i was programming stupid little scripts in notepad having to look through like 50 lines of code to only find a missing comma....


OLD SCHOOL ALL THE WAY. Unlike turing notepad doesn't pickup where there are errors it just crashes.


so a program checking your program is kinda pointless and not the best way to PROGRESS in the scripting wold



so i chose ...... BOTH
Author:  S_Grimm [ Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
but turing doesn't teach the "read through the code and find what went wrong" attitude. it takes you right to the line and everything. i mena jdk is written in notepad, but if there is an error it will tell you, and what line the error happened on, and may recommend something (only if you forgot some very important code, like public static void main), but it still makes you compile from the command line and read through the code and find where changing the line will change the output.
Author:  Dan [ Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
A\V @ 5th November 2008, 4:01 pm wrote:
but turing doesn't teach the "read through the code and find what went wrong" attitude. it takes you right to the line and everything. i mena jdk is written in notepad, but if there is an error it will tell you, and what line the error happened on, and may recommend something (only if you forgot some very important code, like public static void main), but it still makes you compile from the command line and read through the code and find where changing the line will change the output.


Not if you use an IDE, you have to rember that turing is an IDE, itnerperter and complier glued together.
Author:  Euphoracle [ Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
Not glued, actually. More like unwillingly and forcefully bound at the hips...and neck, if that makes any sense (:
Author:  Clayton [ Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
A\V @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:01 pm wrote:
but turing doesn't teach the "read through the code and find what went wrong" attitude. it takes you right to the line and everything. i mena jdk is written in notepad, but if there is an error it will tell you, and what line the error happened on, and may recommend something (only if you forgot some very important code, like public static void main), but it still makes you compile from the command line and read through the code and find where changing the line will change the output.


Emphasis added.

Taking someone right to the line the error has happened on is a feature of the IDE that is shipped with the Turing compiler. And really, that whole argument is ridiculous anyhow, seeing as most compilers will tell you the exact line number, and a pretty good indication of what the error is, you get no further than if you had an IDE take you right to the line where the problem originated.
Author:  TheGuardian001 [ Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Turing shouldn't be taught as a starter language anymore.
I voted no becuase Turing doesn't really prepare you for much afterwards. It teaches you basic concepts of general programming, which is a start, but it still leaves a lot to be disired. the language itself also seems a little simple compared to others, which again is good for people at the very beginning, but leaves them totally unprepared when a language like java is thrown at them. I know suddenly not having my code look exactly like english was confusing to me, so I'm sure it will confuse people who don't program outside of school.I also agree with all the people saying turing teaches bad habits, becuase I aquired all of these bad habits and they killed me when I switched to a real language.

but on the other hand, i suppose it could definately be a lot worse. next year my school has decided it is going to abandon Turing and switch over to a language called Alice(http://www.alice.org/). for those of you too lazy to click on that link, almost all programming in alice is done through dragging and dropping prewritten code boxes into your code. seriously. thats all you do. if you want the clown object(also pre-made) to move, you drag a move object box into your code. So while Turing might not be Ideal for beginners, it at least doesnt baby them to the point of doing all the work for them.
Author:  CodeMonkey2000 [ Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
Wasn't Alice designed to gain more female programmers?
Author:  ecookman [ Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
not necessarly have you used it??

it is a visial based programming language where you drag and drop pieces of script to make a program.... kinda like scratch but alice is more advanced
Author:  ecookman [ Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
A\V @ Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:01 pm wrote:
but turing doesn't teach the "read through the code and find what went wrong" attitude. it takes you right to the line and everything. i mena jdk is written in notepad, but if there is an error it will tell you, and what line the error happened on, and may recommend something (only if you forgot some very important code, like public static void main), but it still makes you compile from the command line and read through the code and find where changing the line will change the output.




note pad never gave me any hint as to where the mistake was


not even a line refence


lucky u
Author:  S_Grimm [ Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
ah, but you were making .vbs files, no? When you write the java files in notpad, and compile it from the command line, the compiler will tell you where the program went wrong. I don't know of any error checker fo .vbs files.
Author:  ecookman [ Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
lol ya tht could do it


it would just say error expected someting that was complety wrong like it thought commas were supposto be a = or""
Author:  btiffin [ Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
Re; quickfix modes and text editors.
code:
$ vim -q [errorfile]
will snap you right to the line that a compiler didn't like. (Any compiler that plays nice with others that is).

Inside the vim editor :cn will jump to next error line.

Quickfix is simply a compiler outputting errors in a form file:line:details. Many programmer editors (and Windows Notepad is NOT), will handle Quickfix (or some other name).

All GNU Compiler Collection tools work this way.
You may need to 2>errors.err on the compiler line, but that is just a good thing to know about using command lines regardless.

I still vote No to Proposition Turing. Wink Then again, if I ran a school board there wouldn't even be Windows machines ... and kids would have to trap, skin and cook their own lunch.

Cheers
Author:  Vermette [ Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
ecookman @ November 6th 2008, 10:49 wrote:

CodeMonkey2000 wrote:
Wasn't Alice designed to gain more female programmers?


not necessarly have you used it??

it is a visial based programming language where you drag and drop pieces of script to make a program.... kinda like scratch but alice is more advanced


Used it, investigated its viability as an outreach tool, and read the doctoral thesis derived from it. It *IS* intended to make programming more accessible to young people with no experience, and their research suggested it increases knowledge retention and interest in female students. The drag-and-drop GUI only partially obscures the Java code the programs are run as. I thought it was more appropriate for middle-school and Science center displays to give a first exposure to programming, but not more beyond that.
Author:  S_Grimm [ Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
The issue with Alice is that (or at least I think so) it makes the new programmers dependent on the program to write the code for them. I still write all my java in notepad and have a nice big thick book beside me (along with about 10 e-books) when i program. I do not depend on the program to do anything but catch my errors. Alice writes the shell and most of the interior code. But, i suppose that if your new, Alice might be able to get you interested in programming at least.
Author:  chili5 [ Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
I don't think that Turing should be taught ever. When I looked at some of the turing solutions for the CCC on the Milliken Mills web site, they look so ugly, and are so hard to understand.

I think that high schools should either teach Java, or C++ as an introductory language. The one I go to teaches Java as the first language. Either Java, or Visual Basic as the first language.
Author:  andrew. [ Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Turing shouldn\'t be taught as a starter language anymore.
I voted yes because IMO a very simple language is needed for beginner programmers. Turing is very simple. Yes, it's inefficient and a lot of people start getting bad habits, but it's good because since it's easy, a lot more people are interested in it and start programming. After learning Turing, they go on to Java to correct their habits and programming concepts. I think that first-year programmers should either start with Turing or Python.

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