Computer Science Canada

Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Author:  ali_dada [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Hi,

This never seemed to bother me before (even though I knew about it) but now that I am in my final year of BSc computer science it kinda worries me. Allow me to elaborate a little: now that I am applying for graduate jobs or entry level positions, I can see on the companies websites that a huge chunk (if not the majority) of IT/Comp. Sci. jobs are either in Malaysia, China, or India.

Now, I know that this trend is more evident with larger companies while small and medium sized companies stick with the local talent. However, one must keep in their minds that this outsourcing just started 7-8 years ago and I am sure it will be more felt 10-15 years later when better infrastructure and technologies will allow other companies to start outsourcing. This will also cause big companies to outsource even a bigger percentage of jobs to 3rd World.

I mean, face it, nowadays quality IT/Comp. Sci. education is available in many 3rd World countries and they offer a huge incentive as well - why pay a Canadian comp. sci./IT worker $5000 or $6000 per month while you can hire 2-3 people in his/her spot for the same amount who are equally qualified? Also, due to the slump in the economy in the general, don't you think outsourcing will become even faster?

This outsourcing seems to be a big thing especially with the high end jobs in the field - software engineers and the networking professionals. Fine, there will be jobs in Canada but due to limited number of opportunities, don't you think it will lead to too much competition and lower pay/benefits? Also lower security making it a contract job market mainly?

I don't know man, it just kinda disappoints me a little - I mean I am studying my ass off and paying huge tuition/living costs and for what? An unsure future? To be honest, all of a sudden finishing this degree and getting another undergraduate degree in power engineering (3 yrs) or something (2-3 yrs) which requires workers to be in Canada looks very appealing - atleast they can't outsource those jobs! I was hoping to get a Masters in Comp. Sci. (2 yrs) but I don't think it would be my top priority now given this issue and the economic uncertanity.


What are your opinions? Do you think I am over-stating the danger?

Author:  delparnel [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

I think that a lot of the programmers for hire in those countries do a sloppy job, and follow a "make it work" principle. I have hired programmers from all around the world, and have seen some very shoddy work. I'm not saying they all are, but in my experience I haven't received exemplary code.

A lot of larger companies still prefer to hire locally. That way they can keep their programmers in-house, and readily available at their offices. Some others are hiring more and more contractors overseas, but I don't think this is a huge issue.

I think there will continue to be huge opportunities in the field.

-dkl

Author:  Vertico [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Not really on topic, but China and India are not 3rd world countries. You probably didn't mean it to sound like that, just thought I would clear up the misconception.

Author:  btiffin [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Another side note and old guy ramble;

North American governments are opposed to off shore outsourcing. Anyone that wants a federal contract is unlikely to have any large portion outsourced. Not because George or Steven or Felipe care so much about the employment, it is a "security" issue. Hitec City in India is mainly a call centre now, afaik. It was intended for large high-end development, but that got sidetracked when large companies were told by officials to not go there if they wanted federal commissions.

On sloppy work. As far as I know, that is more often due to misscommunications than malice or lack of talent or intellect. It is hard enough reading a spec and coding it right when the person that wrote the spec is in the next cubicle, let alone across the street or across the ocean and many cultures and time zones.

This is one of the reasons I hang out here on compsci.ca. To cheerlead talented individuals to become global leaders, from right here in Canada. Don't fear getting cubicle work. Make your own cubicle work and aim for the penthouse office. Be a boss. A world leader in computational enterprise. Hire all your classmates. Rah rah biss boom bah. Go entrepreneurs go! Wink

There is nothing stopping a Class of 2008'er from becoming the CEO, CTO and Founder of the next big thing. Nothing.

Cheers

Author:  Tony [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

ali_dada @ Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:59 pm wrote:
you can hire 2-3 people in his/her spot for the same amount who are equally qualified?

If they are equally qualified, why shouldn't they be hired?

ali_dada @ Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:59 pm wrote:
I am studying my ass off and paying huge tuition

How do you think those other "equally qualified" students got to the same level of skill?

Point is -- it's a global market. There might be some moral incentive to give preference to local candidates, but it's not one of the "protected categories" that public companies cannot discriminate against. Low skill IT (call centers, tech support, fill-in-the-blanks development) are typically outsourced.

Now, if someone 12 timezones away can overcome educational, language, cultural, and tele-commute barriers, to do the job as good as you can -- it sounds like that person is working much harder to get the same job that you want. Still, communication with the rest of the dev team remains a vital advantage for the local developers. If your skills are up to par, you are still in the advantage, at least for a while longer.

Author:  Roman [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

I don't think it's a problem. Higher level of competitions do force you to work harder and better. They do require you to be passionate about your subject and live and breathe the material you are interested in (programming, in this case). But Tony is right, it IS a global market. And there is nothing "wrong" or "immoral" about outsourcing jobs that can be outsourced. It just means that we of the "1st" world will have to WORK to make that $6000 a month, as opposed to EXPECTING it to simply fall into our pockets for 40 hours of time every week.

btiffin has an excellent point. The upside of competition is that it forces you to overcome your laziness and reach higher and higher levels. Develop yourself and be the next ("awesome programmer here"), and India or not, you'll have multiple job offers and security to the teeth. I think that it's wrong to consider switching to something you don't like because you feel it'll be less competitive. Competition is everywhere nowadays =]

Plus, if all else fails, you can always study in India and avoid paying your high tuition fees/living costs Wink

-RZ

Author:  Dan [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

I think a big problem with out scouring is that it lowers the average saliary/wage of programmers world wide.

I do adgree that programmers in other countries who are equally qualified are just as intitiled to programming jobs as us however i also think they should also be payed just as well.

The problem with the idea that you just need to work harder and get more skills is that companys are not going to be hiring overly qaluified candiantes and have to pay them more when they can hire less qaluifed outscored canidantes that can get the job done for alot less.

Also it is prity clear that alot of companys are willing to acept a lower level of qaulity for alot of savings. Just take call centeres for example. If compays caluaclte that outsocring to lower skilled/qualifed empolyies will saving more money then the number of custerms they lose, they are going to do it at the cost to consumer.

We should not be angry/woried about/at the outscored programmers but at the countries and companys that are devaluing all programming work.

As for Canada, i think we should put insentives in place to keep jobs of any kind in Canada be it threw tax breaks or even laws regulating the % of outsocred empolies a company can have. However my views are rather socalist and anti-freemarket so i guse the more consertive stand point would be to just let the free mark work it's self out and that maybe programers do dserve less money.

Author:  delparnel [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

btiffin @ Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:29 pm wrote:
Another side note and old guy ramble;
On sloppy work. As far as I know, that is more often due to misscommunications than malice or lack of talent or intellect. It is hard enough reading a spec and coding it right when the person that wrote the spec is in the next cubicle, let alone across the street or across the ocean and many cultures and time zones.


This is true. However, in my experience it hasn't been that the work is not within spec, it's that the quality of the code can be much less. Security has been a major issue, for example.

This outsourcing issue isn't just true for the IT industry. It's a major issue in North America across all industries, and will continue to be. However, I think the IT industry has more opportunity for us to make our own path.

Author:  nike52 [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Wouldn't you get tired of constantly competing? Even though compscis my passion, I know when I compsci too much I get sick of it. When I get a job, I want to go home and relax, buy and play the latest games or something, not constantly learn compsci if that's what competing entails, not to mention job security and salary.

Author:  ali_dada [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Thanks for the replies, some of your posts were really encouraging - thanks especially to darparnel!

Well, I have an excellent GPA and for a graduating student, I have some solid IT work experience in terms of programming for a graduating student therefore I feel I should be fine.

I just hope that this economic times provides me with an opportunity.

Nike52, man don't worry...you won't be studying all over again. Majority of these certifications and trainings are fairly straight forward and designed for just about anyone. You learn all the stuff at Work as when you go home, you still get to play your XBOX or Wii!!!


Regards and thanks to all,
Ali.

P.S. I never said that there was anything wrong regarding outsourcing. Please don't think that way. Competition is healthy but like any Canadian citizen, I do hope to get a job in Canada based on my education and to start working soon after I graduate (just like any of you).

Author:  Zeroth [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Well, it is a global market. However, so long as PHBs prefer their staff close and local to tor^w^w^winspire, then there will be only minimal outsourcing. Mostly its the lowest rungs of IT work, as someone else stated, that gets outsourced. So don't target those.

Yes, programmers will need to earn their paycheques, in comparison to the "cheaper" employees overseas. However, this does not mean you are getting a raw deal. Learn to do something the outsource employees can never do well: communicate. Learn to sell yourself, by going into a retail job for a year or so. Learn to sell your ideas. Don't just be a code-monkey. Be a Silverback Gorilla of Code(Just as a note, that name is reserved for me, as it was bestowed by my friend and partner. Hah!)

I have a question for all of you then: instead of looking to be hired, why aren't any of you thinking of doing your own startup, or a friend's startup?

Author:  jbking [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

My own take on this is that there is a coming wave where outsourcing didn't quite pay off as thought and/or companies realize that they may want to keep the domain knowledge within the company. If you stop and think about the level of customization in some applications and how a company can optimally structure their systems to use the same look and feel as well as provide power to the business in a sense, e.g. business intelligence and data warehouse kind of thing, there is something to be said for having the in-house expert as opposed to having to potentially re-invent the wheel if there are constantly new people being assigned to work on these tasks.

The specialization of software engineering doesn't seem to get the headlines though I think it should and if you want a good book about the outsourcing / offshoring, which are different things I would note, "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman has some excellent examples if you look at companies like Wal-mart or UPS that I doubt would outsource their IT that much as this is part of what made them so great. Agile development and a few other ideas still getting refined are suggesting, at least to me, that there will be cases where the developer who is taking a project from idea through to maintenance has to talk to the end user and get the idea of what they want, make the prototype and then spend hours tweaking it until it is great. This isn't likely to be done by developers out in other countries from the company's offices in some cases I'd think. What will start happening is that some developers will specialize in a type of application and this knowledge is what may make them useful and not likely to get outsourced as there may not be that many available with training on some of these things, e.g. SAP and Oracle come to mind though I think there may be others in the CRM/ERP/CMS/SCM/HRMS systems out there.

ERP = Enterprise resource planning = inventory management among other things, quite similar to SCM = Supply Chain Management
CRM = Customer Relationship Management = sales/marketing/support coming together
CMS = Content Management System
HRMS = Human Resource Management System

In the decade that I have been doing web development there have been many changes over that time where in some cases I have had to deal with outsourcing. To break things down a bit:

1) Dot-coms. In this case, some of the behind the scenes work can be given to those in another country and I did have this happen a couple of times. Once was where the founder had a deal with some Russians and so some of the software development was done there but there also had to be some engineers local to see that everything worked fine. It is an interesting story involving a printing press, being repaid in sheet music pages rather than dollars, and an interesting weight loss system where each Canadian sent over there lost a lot of weight getting used to Siberian food. In the other case, while working from the Seattle area, there was a group of developers up in Vancouver that we had to work with to transfer an order-processing system that had to get integrated as the company had a recent acquisition to digest and required a fair number of developers spending months on getting that done.

2) Application Service Provider. In this case the work is a combination of wireless communications and GIS to show where an asset is or has been. Quite an interesting field that is still developing in some ways though the company used other companies to be the main front-end selling the service along with another company to provide the devices. There were quite a few different uses I saw ranging from cargo security, to monitoring expensive equipment that may get stolen, to just recording what a truck did all day in terms of its operations(where did it go, how fast was it driven, how long did it stop at various places). Since this requires use of the wireless telecommunications, that part isn't likely to get outsourced since a large part of this is the device reporting where the asset is. Oddly enough, the company did outsource its internal IT functions like setting up machines, monitoring servers, etc. to a local provider of these services so that it wasn't a dedicated person drawing a salary which was the former situation. So there were various people in the outsourcing company with varying skill levels that made it more cost-effective for the company to do this and it made sense since most of the people in the company were technical enough to fix their own machines, why have someone who would just be "babysitting" them in a sense.

3) Technology solutions provider. Now where I work there is definitely some development that will be done outside the company but we want to have enough cross-training so that an in-house team can handle small changes that may come down the line. The consulting companies need to have some staff in North America to keep that face being local as it isn't every company that wants to deal with someone that feels so far away. There will likely be an internal IT group for the foreseeable future from my view as we are the backbone of the company in a sense.

There are also various oil and gas companies around here in Calgary that hire a lot of developers to do build various technical applications where this expertise in the business of oil and gas isn't likely to be found in India or China. Texas, maybe though once again this may not be a cheap place to hire developers.

Author:  ali_dada [ Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

FYI...it is wrong to think only low-level IT jobs are outsourced.

If anybody goes on job listings on big technology company's webiste, you can see that jobs like those of computer engineers and software engineers are also outsourced to various places around the World.

Just last week I had an interview with a company and they mentioned that they were outsourcing their application development work to India.

Finally, I know of a bank in Canada which brings IT workers from India on work permit. The bank saves money on such hires as those on work permits don't get all the benefits that a Canadian employee or an employee on permanent residence gets.

But hey man, I guess we should learn to accept the reality and be prepared to compete with it. We should sharpen our skills and our work ethics but at the end of the day, if outsourcing is to take our over jobs, we can always move on to find other jobs...big deal.

I am happy I am in this field as it interests me and since I have acheived my academic excellence due to the fact I am in computer science - if anything, I owe a huge thanks to the IT industry.

Author:  jeffgreco13 [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Sault Ste Marie has a population of around 75,000 people and its safe to say that our city was built around a Paper Mill and a Steel Mill which, combined, employed the majority of the city. So when the steel mill's (Algoma Steel) production hit an all time low they were forced to sell to Essar Steel, which is owned by a man of Indian decent.

Wouldn't you know that he outsources the ENTIRE industry's IT dept. to India. Yes that's right, all of the company's Canadian employees must now call an automated IT service center in India to get problems fixed. If they can't fix your software issue and it is deemed a hardware issue some low level, colour coordinating, slob of an IT rep comes in to switch out your old PC.

Tell me that's a SMALL outsourcing case.

Author:  btiffin [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

ali_dada @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:16 pm wrote:
FYI...it is wrong to think only low-level IT jobs are outsourced. ...


True; but I'd still prefer Canadians run their own show. Start a company that is cost-effective enough to get Russian contracts, Indian contracts, Chinese deals, etc.

And it seems, that people like delparnel are doing their part. We should all aim to be in that position. Keep up the hiring of programmers delparnel, well done.

Old guy rant follows
And don't shop at WalMart. People my age gutted the field for young people. By going to the bigbox stores and saving $25 dollars on a bigscreen TV, we have pretty much guaranteed that there will be no work here. Blame your parents. Wink Unless they happen to be the rare people with enough common sense to know that the WalMart phenomenon is just bad for everybody while looking like it is good for the individual. I had a real good argument with an older friend of my mom's. She could not get over personal greed and "self survival" to see how bad an idea it is. Everyone believes that if you spend $25 dollars more going to a small store on main street that they will fall behind the Jones'es. And while it may be true, it also guarantees that Mr and Mrs Jones won't have work either, eventually. Eventually seems to be now.

Sadly, with the new crisis, WalMart will profit more and we'll spiral further down the toilet. And we may well deserve it. So rail against the machine, hire people that may not be as cost effective as the "other guy" and we may stand a chance in the future. But humans being humans, I bet we won't. So it may be best to just go with the flow and live the "me me me" lifestyle.

Cheers

Author:  Zeroth [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Offtopic: @btiffin, you're making the mistake of thinking trickle-down economics actually works. There are many arguments to each side about the walmart phenomenon. One side insists because we pay less, there is less overall benefit, and that walmart ruins jobs, etc. The other side insists that because people pay less at walmart, the lower and lower-middle classes are affected more strongly than by any trickle-down effect. By saving more money, those people can spend that extra money where they need to elsewhere after buying the essentials(that's presuming they are smart with their money). The problem is: both sides are right.

Walmart can and does eliminate small businesses; but the catch is that the small businesses that die could not compete and would usually have closed down anyways. These are usually mom and pop stores that hire maybe 1, 2, 3 employees or their family, and have pretty high prices. I have no statistics on the number of small stores that close down, but its easy to see that Walmart likely creates more jobs than were lost.

Walmart can and does inflict pressure on companies; this is solely to improve Walmart's bottom line, because if their suppliers run things more efficiently and cheaper, the savings can be passed on to the consumer. Dealing with Walmart forces a company to modernize and grow up. In this day and age, expecting a company to have effective shipping and logistics should be the norm, not the exception. Some companies cannot handle this, so they die. Other companies deal with walmart via products, and find that they need walmart, but they can't say No to walmart. They either lose money with walmart or lose money without walmart. Again, this is not a bad thing. While sad, while seemingly cruel, it is just business. It is capitalism, and if you can't keep up, so long and thanks for all the fish.

Walmart pays competitive wages and benefits; instead of trying to gouge their employee's pay for as much as they can, Walmart pays just above the average wage for the local area. For example, here in Kelowna, Walmart pays about $12/hour starting wage. They don't have to, but they do anyways.

The problem is that people don't see capitalism for what it is, and instead apply their PC, soft little bunny ideals to it. Competition is good. Failed competition, while sad, indicates they could not keep up. Capitalism is tough. Many companies do it wrong today, but Walmart does it right. They know where they should spend their money, and where they should make things more cost-effective. They run with lower energy costs overall than any other big box store. They used their position to create market pressure FOR environmentally healthy packaging and products, like fluorescent lights.

Overall, Walmart does more good than bad, because they know that it creates a more profitable environment. But, Walmart is neither good nor bad. They can't be judged that way.

Author:  btiffin [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Continuing offtopic

Well, I'll disagree. I'll admit, I'm Socialist, NDP gets my vote everytime.

WalMart and unfettered Capitalism is bad. As is unfettered Communism, or unfettered anything.

Humans are greedy. We base our political system around the myth of "Truth and Honour and Justice". If the Canadian Charter started with the words,

... as can be demonstrably justified by wealth mongering greedy powerful individuals...

instead of

Quote:
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.


then at least we the people would have a chance, as the system would be based on a truth and not a fictitious myth/promise.

But I'll agree; can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. But make it a heat people can see, not some hidden backroom hack crap that is the reality.

I'll also disagree. WalMart does more bad than good, mainly due to much of the dealings being political and backroom. (in my, socialist, humble opinion) and humans en masse (again, I include myself) are idiots and need parents that don't screw them over in the dark.

A case in point (but actually this is from the other direction ... but applies I think). I used to hire summer students. I didn't NEED anything, I was just a contractor with some spare cash. I taught them SNOBOL and Icon. Working out of my house, I would leave them to go to work. This was solely for the purpose of giving a few people a leg up on the "I have paid experience programming" entry on a Resume. I once called a government office, so the students could perhaps pocket a little more money. I got a call, we have someone for you and we'll cover one third of the paycheque. My plan was to just hand that money over as "bonus". I told them that I needed someone I could trust alone in my home, and that they would trust to do the paperwork that they needed doing. I got a response of "hey what are you upto? We need a babysitter type employer. We don't trust you. This is fishy.". Of course it was fishy; people that pay people "just because" is not in normal human nature. So I told them, no thanks, keep your money, it's ok. I can only hope I helped these students start a better career. I feel that, in the long run, that is good for me and everyone else. If it cost me some retirement funds ... so be it.

Cheers

Author:  nike52 [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Outsourcing scares me, but every time I think I should jump the compsci ship, I don't know where to jump to. Everything else - trades, business, accounting, engineer - just isn't as appealing.

Author:  Zeroth [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

still offtopic..

I don't see any point where you actually try to refute my claims. You offer an anecdote, and we all know that an anecdote does not a pattern or proof make.

Basically, what I see in your post is a bunch of idealistic stuff. I've often found that the truth is always complicated, always many sides to it. Almost any sort of ideology, misguided belief, whatever, is always presented as THE SHINING PERFECT SOLUTION. The truth never is. Truth is boring, uncomfortable, and not interesting.

You should know better than to have a whole bunch of hand-wavy stuff that says that "this will fix everything" or even some stuff. We're programmers. We're supposed to tell it straight.

We get enough hand-wavy stuff from the politicians. I'd like to know my fellow programmers are at least telling it straight.

What I've been coming to is a good mix of socialism and capitalism. The key tenet of capitalism is that self-interest benefits everyone. Call it greed if you want. However, the further stipulation is that the business owner's self-interest MUST benefit the customer's self-interest. If you do not satisfy the customer's self-interest, then your own self-interest cannot be fulfilled without market manipulation, like monopolies, PR, laws and regulations. See how it is balanced? The customer's self-interest MUST be served to be successful. Second tenet that most friedmanite economists ignore: enviroment. The environment affects your employees, your customers, prices, supply, cost of benefits, etc. When looked at in that way, things that benefit the environment, whether that is a mental environment polluted with advertising and jingoistic media, or physical environment polluted with caustic chemicals, must be done. Serving the customer honestly, with an intent to satisfy the customer also lowers customer service costs, because there are fewer problems. So, the thing missing from most capitalist methods and plans is two basic necessary tenets: customer satisfaction and the environment. Anything that ignores those needs to act progressively more drastically to deal with the shortcomings.

Take for example cigarette companies. They know it harms their users. They know they place an undue load on the healthcare system. Their customers are dying every day, and they need new customers to fill the slack. Hence, they advertise to kids. Instead, if it were a product that was worth buying, that didn't kill its users... they wouldn't need to advertise to kids.

Socialism is an attempt to remove the cause of harmful companies, but that cause can never be removed. It is greed. However, greed can motivate people as well. The trick is finding a system that combines the motivation to succeed with the fairness and justice that a socialist system promises.

I am very much against friedmanite economics, but not because I am far left, but because I am rational. I don't believe any ideology will work, but only a mix of ideologies. Ideologies always have flaws. They always sound so perfect too. I would have thought you wouldn't fall for that.

-Zeroth
(Ps: good debate!)

Author:  btiffin [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Outsourcing: A Concern for Comp. Sci?

Still off
Good points Zeroth; but, as seen with the current situation, no we cannot trust a financial business owner to always look out for the best interest of customers. Proof in the current pudding. The Market is only good at self-regulation on the up swings. Down swings cause Socialist moves by Capitalist governments.

Regulation of human foibles is a good idea. Regulation of human feats is a good idea. Just because I think I should be able to drive faster than everyone else does not mean I should be able to drive faster than everyone else. Just because we think bankers and oil men are going to watch out for our interests over the long term does not mean we should let them do whatever whenever without watching.

And yes, my last post was rant and this is yet more lip flap. I doubt I'll ever influence the grand scheme, but I may influence an individual, to help another individual. Or perhaps someone here will become Prime Minister in the not too distant future and have that one little extra opinion about how reality is and how reality should be presented. If we all assume that wealth trumps wisdom, we'd be better off.

Would it really be so bad if we got that straight talk from the feds? There would not even be a need to change much, just be open about the root motivation.

And I'll admit, that I can't tell it straight. I haven't had the ear of an executive in a long time. Going on 10 years now. Perhaps a downside of not being in a cubicle. So my actual knowledge of out sourcing and off shoring is heresay and probably a fair ways off the truth of the situtation. Sadly for you lot, it won't stop me from flappin' gums. Wink

Cheers,
Brian


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