Computer Science Canada

Do People Think?

Author:  Zampano [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Do People Think?

The common question that has been asked and answered a hundred times is 'Do Computers Think?' The reason people started asking this question is because with the increasing complexity of computers, they were able to perform tasks that made them seem increasingly intelligent to humans.

The answer to the question is 'No', as computers are only able to follow set instructions while people are able to make conscious decisions, which separates the computer's thought from humans'.

However, a computer's thought still seems to be strikingly similar to a person's, which is why I made this topic.

The hypothetical possibility is that people do not actually think, except in the way a computer thinks: a large amount of 'if' statements.

Let me explain: all the decisions that a person makes are based on their circumstances, and for that reason, they have no conscious thoughts. For example: if a lion is chasing you, you run. If the phone is ringing, you pick it up. That's is how a person thinks; what if it looked like this:

if lion chasing then
run
end if

if phone ringing then
pick up
end if

That's just how Turing might have our thoughts, but the syntax is irrelevant. What's important is that our brains only produce the output (run, pick up) based on the input. Furthermore, the output can become more and more complex, based on the circumstances of the input (run in the opposite direction of the lion, pick up the nearest phone). The output can be so complex even to mirror emotions.

The point is that if our interactions with life are only based on circumstance, we have no intelligence, the same way a computer has no real intelligence, and therefore our lives are predictable, the same way a skilled programmer can tell what will happen in a program by just studying the code involved in the program for a few minutes.

That has huge implications:
A)We have no will our say in our lives.
B)There is no such thing as emotion.
and C), the most important and the ultimate implication of this idea; if we could build a program that charts the course of human input and output to eventually find patterns in it (the program would have to be infinitely complex), and we had a fast enough computer (it would have to be infinitely fast, and we knew the position of every proton, neutron, and electron at the farthest point back in the age of the universe we knew of (our knowledge of this matter would have to stretch over infinite space); if we had those three things, we could determine the course of the universe, the future, and the exact past the same way (as I said earlier) a programmer sees the exact course of a program.

Of course, that's conditional on humans not thinking.

I'm reluctant to explore this idea, as it ultimately makes my life futile, and gives me no to run like a program. But i just want to know what you guys think, with all your insight into computers and people. Please read the entire post and respond accordingly.

Author:  haskell [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

Everything you have said is just basic observations, all of which can be explained by what we learned through our entire lives and basic brain functions that stop us from having to consciously decide every little thing that happens. We DO NOT run fully on conditionals, in fact, these "conditionals" you described are either:

A. Instincts that have carried over thousands of years.
B. Things we learned from other people(Social Proof).

These are used to keep us alive and allow us to function in the efficient manner we do now, despite the countless stimulus we encounter each day.

Our complex functioning is basically a positive charge that flows up the axons of neurons that is caused by the diffusion of sodium ions into it due to a successive opening of protein channels, which causes a chemicals to be released, which causes various reactions(VERY simplified).

However, there is a much better argument about a new Physics theory that proves we don't have free-will through Quantum Mechanics,.

Author:  Cervantes [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

It's a well known fact that the universe is NOT deterministic. That is, if we knew exactly the state of the universe at a certain time, it is not possible to work out the exact state of the universe at another time (before or after). The best you can do is work out probabilities of a certain state happening or not. This is all based on Quantum Mechanics.

So don't worry, your life is not pre-determined.

Now, here's my answer to your first question. People think in a way that is distinct from a (classical) computer. There are some fantastic theories that relate quantum mechanics to the human brain. Stuart Hameroff defines consciousness as
Quote:

a sequence of discrete events, arising from alternating phases of 1) isolated quantum coherent superposition (in which microtubule quantum states are isolated by actin gelation), and 2) classical input/output in which microtubule information communicates with the non-conscious portions of the brain, nervous system and outside world.

The theory explains that brains of humans are capable of having many "conscious moments" per second, while a worm's brain might only be able to have a few per minute. A classical computer has none, to the best of my knowledge.

I find the field of Quantum Computing fascinating because it is so inter-disciplinary: Physics, Math, Computer Science, (Chemistry), Neuroscience, Engineering

Author:  Skynet [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

Even assuming that our brain behaves identically to a massively parallel computer, the main advantage a human has is the ability to constantly develop new "conditionals" through a subconscious obsession to find patterns in the world. Yes, I believe that my thought processes at any discrete instant can be modeled by a long list of conditionals. However, since my brain is constantly feeding back information, these conditionals are evolving over time. On top of that, some 'inputs' to these conditionals are the outputs of other 'operations' our brain performs on sensory information - audio filtering, visual pattern matching, etc. Those 'modules' are also constantly evolving over time based on feedback they receive. But, unlike a feedback control system like a car's cruise control, there are millions of interconnected paths. Also, the operations are not synchronized with each other.

If you want to get into the gooey stuff, there's what haskell and Cervantes posted, but what I've posted above makes no assumptions as to the actual method of functioning of the human brain.

As a side note, 'expert systems' do what you describe above - attempt to condense an expert's analytical skill into a computer program, usually for the purpose of making diagnoses. (Medicine was the first place that this was used)

Author:  haskell [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

Actually, I can do exactly what you described in LISP :p. Although, I'm pretty sure you can't live long enough to properly simulate the human brain. Its crude and is usually producing errors... No computer system could function like that. In fact, we'd never let a computer system function like that. Mistakes are for humans.

Author:  Skynet [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

Yeah, I meant to mention LISP. You could do it in assembler too, if you tried hard enough. However, the difficulty of structuring the system to accept feedback in the correct way is still there....especially since on top of everything else, the brain is capable of reorganizing itself to maintain function in the face of severe trauma. It would be like having a running program rewrite itself to achieve its original goals after large portions of its instruction set were removed without warning. (and without telling the program what happened)

Author:  Zampano [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

Thanks for the answers, guys.
I knew nothing about quantum mechanics or anything else for that matter when I posted this topic. I guess whatever question you can imagine, there is a person somewhere with at least a partial, if hypothetical answer.
I'm interested in these kinds of questions, so I'll look into all the stuff you wrote about, and maybe come to a conclusion I am satisfied with.

Author:  cavetroll [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

wow I started reading this and decided to look up some of the stuff you guys are talking about ... anyway long story short is now 12:20 and I am gonna be tired tomorrow. Laughing

Anyway I think we have consciousness merely by the fact that we are having this conversation in an attempt to further understand our own being. If we weren't conscious then we would not have any reason to (or way to) understand ourselves. Also I think creating a computer which functions like our brain does is impossible because our brain has X number of "ifs" as you call them and Y number of them are used for process that don't require us to think about(i.e. heartbeat, breathing) but still take up our thought process. We cannot comprehend our brains because we cannot utilize the entire brain. Thus it would be impossible to create a computer program to model out brains.

Author:  Cervantes [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

cavetroll wrote:
Anyway I think we have consciousness merely by the fact that we are having this conversation in an attempt to further understand our own being. If we weren't conscious then we would not have any reason to (or way to) understand ourselves.

why do you think it's impossible for a computer program to try to determine the source of its own "intelligence"? I can definitely see that happening.

cavetroll wrote:
Also I think creating a computer which functions like our brain does is impossible because our brain has X number of "ifs" as you call them and Y number of them are used for process that don't require us to think about(i.e. heartbeat, breathing) but still take up our thought process.

You'd have to define "thought process", but if it's defined at all in terms of the cerebrum (which seems reasonable to me), then these things don't take up our thought process. They're controlled by the brainstem (in particular the medulla oblongata). But still, there's no reason why a computer program couldn't model the brainstem. In fact, modelling the brainstem would be quite easy. It's the cerebrum that would be orders of magnitude more difficult.

cavetroll wrote:
We cannot comprehend our brains because we cannot utilize the entire brain.

The fact that we don't consciously use all parts of the brain, does not imply that we can't (externally) study all parts of the brain and eventually understand it completely.

Zampano @ Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:04 pm wrote:

I'm interested in these kinds of questions, so I'll look into all the stuff you wrote about, and maybe come to a conclusion I am satisfied with.

I kind of doubt this, but good luck!

If anyone likes Star Trek, check out Season 2 Episode 9 of The Next Generation. It's called "The Measure of a Man", and Data is ordered to transfer off the Enterprise. He counters by resigning from Star Fleet. But is Data, being a machine, considered the property of Star Fleet? Does he have the right to choose? The question ultimately comes down to whether Data is conscious or not. If anyone's really interested in watching this (and can't find it elsewhere), I could possibly upload it to something.

Author:  Zampano [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

Cervantes wrote:
If anyone likes Star Trek, check out Season 2 Episode 9 of The Next Generation. It's called "The Measure of a Man", and Data is ordered to transfer off the Enterprise. He counters by resigning from Star Fleet. But is Data, being a machine, considered the property of Star Fleet? Does he have the right to choose? The question ultimately comes down to whether Data is conscious or not.


There's a similar situation in 2001: A Space Odysee, where the HAL-9000(a very 'intelligent' machine) kills a human because he was scheduled to be turned off because of an apparent glitch in his function.

By the way, does any one know of a site where there's an explanation of quantum mechanics for dumb morons like me?

Author:  CodeMonkey2000 [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

Why are we assuming that the brain performs a bunch of if statements? What if the human thought is made up of trillions and trillions of random chemical reactions super-imposed into one conscience/sub conscience? According to quantum mechanics, isn't everything suppose to happen at random?

Author:  Cervantes [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

Things progress according to probabilities, but for macroscopic (non-quantum) systems, the probabilities are so enormously close to 1 or 0 that we can treat them as 1 or 0.

Zampano, the first good exposure I got to Quantum Mechanics was through Brian Greene's book, The Elegant Universe. The first section is special and general relativity, the second is QM, and the third is String theory and M-theory.

Author:  rdrake [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

Yes.

Author:  BigBear [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

I believe people think because if we were like computer we wouldn't make terrible mistakes. People go out and buy terrible cell phone plans and complain about it, Computer program wouldn't complain.

Author:  Nick [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

what if we were programed to complain :p

Author:  LaZ3R [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

What if we are living IN a computer program all part of God's computer :p

Maybe this is his version of "The Sims" and he really controls us and every decision we make, without ourselves noticing anything.

Ahhh, so many questions and possibilities :p.

Author:  Nick [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

not related to computers but is one person's reality the same as another's?

such as my green isn't the same color as someone else's green

Author:  HeavenAgain [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

Quote:
such as my green isn't the same color as someone else's green
we were all taught the same way, or at least most of us... so we recognize the same, so your green colour should be the same as mine Smile (plus, theres the words under the colours, which already taken away the "freedom" for your own thoughts)

and now... the title is already wrong... "do people think" of course people think o_o, or i think we think, or i think that i think we think....

this is pretty much "pointless" to talk about, since we can't even prove that ourselves as human being exists or not...

in conclusion "I think, therefore I am", fun topic Very Happy

Author:  Nick [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

not what I meant by the green thing... I mean what if we see different color's in our own eyes that differ from another's perception even if looking at the same thinng

in fact xkcd even has a comic on this

http://xkcd.com/32/

Author:  HeavenAgain [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

then we "simply call them colour blind"
although there is not really a right or wrong, because what you see is what you see... no one have the right to judge it Very Happy
but it will be pretty bad for communication.. like could you pass me the red marker, and you ended up giving me a purple one. who's colour blind now? majority wins i guess Laughing

Author:  Zampano [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

It's funny because I raised this idea with a classmate just today after having it soak idly in my mind for few months.

I'd suppose the 'complaining' machine would have to be programmed to have those kind of emotions. The assumption I made when I started this topic was that a humans brain can't act just like an infinitely complex program which simulate the behaviour we commonly associate with free will. Of course, that was before I had my doubts put to rest by the size and obscurity of the "beginner" quantum mechanics Wikipedia page. I can be convinced that the writers understood themselves enough to be fully qualified if they wrote pages of that magnitude.

Author:  HeavenAgain [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

well... we "learn from experience" as well as our mistakes, i doubt a computer can simulate that, even if its "quantum mechanics", they are programed to behave a certain way, and they learn from us (humans) not themselves, while we learn on our own, and "discover!" we make computers happen. computers are just tools to make calculations and things less painful for us, in the end human wins over computer Twisted Evil
but computers are still good Very Happy

Author:  Nick [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

a simply "learning" machine

code:
if notKnown then touch fire
knownThatFireHurts = true

Author:  syntax_error [ Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

how does a computer know fire hurts?

Author:  Nick [ Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

it doesn't but it's taught not to touch again because it was told it hurts

Author:  syntax_error [ Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

why would it be told it hurt?

Author:  Clayton [ Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Do People Think?

momop @ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:24 pm wrote:
not related to computers but is one person's reality the same as another's?

such as my green isn't the same color as someone else's green


You know, I've actually thought about this for some time now. I don't think the people that followed up on that post really were sure what you're talking about however. For clarification, everyone is taught their basic colors in kindergarten. Everyone knows what brown, red, yellow etc look like. But what if brown to you looked like your purple to me? Or your green looked like your blue to me, and I still called it green? The point is, do we all see the exact same thing when we look around a room, or do we all see different colors?

Author:  Saad [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Do People Think?

Clayton @ Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:31 am wrote:
momop @ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:24 pm wrote:
not related to computers but is one person's reality the same as another's?

such as my green isn't the same color as someone else's green


You know, I've actually thought about this for some time now. I don't think the people that followed up on that post really were sure what you're talking about however. For clarification, everyone is taught their basic colors in kindergarten. Everyone knows what brown, red, yellow etc look like. But what if brown to you looked like your purple to me? Or your green looked like your blue to me, and I still called it green? The point is, do we all see the exact same thing when we look around a room, or do we all see different colors?


We probably don't see the same thing as each other, however there is no real way to prove it, since we all know of each color with a name, regardless of what shade we see.


Also, I'd say computers are designed in such a way that it reflects our conscious thought process, rather then humans thinking like computers. If's are only one part of how our mind works, for example we have instincts which computesr do not have. Computers basically are designed to help us solve problems that we wouldn't be able to solve with a humans speed of thought.

Author:  richcash [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE:Do People Think?

Saad @ Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:09 am wrote:
Clayton @ Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:31 am wrote:
momop @ Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:24 pm wrote:
not related to computers but is one person's reality the same as another's?

such as my green isn't the same color as someone else's green


You know, I've actually thought about this for some time now. I don't think the people that followed up on that post really were sure what you're talking about however. For clarification, everyone is taught their basic colors in kindergarten. Everyone knows what brown, red, yellow etc look like. But what if brown to you looked like your purple to me? Or your green looked like your blue to me, and I still called it green? The point is, do we all see the exact same thing when we look around a room, or do we all see different colors?


We probably don't see the same thing as each other, however there is no real way to prove it, since we all know of each color with a name, regardless of what shade we see.


No, we all see the same colours. Period. I'm sure you all know the colour of a light wave is determined by its wavelength. The shorter the wavelength, the more blue or violet, the longer the wavelength, the more red. Right?

So, look at a colour gradient made by gradually changing the wavelength of light waves (a rainbow is a perfect example). We all see a smooth transition from shade to shade. It doesn't matter that we have been taught artificial bounds that allow us to identify what a light wave looks like. It's all one colour that gradually gets more red or more blue/violet. We all see the similarities from shade to shade (the colour doesn't dramatically change when the wavelength slightly changes). But if we didn't see the same colours then some of us wouldn't see a smooth transition from shade to shade. It has to be in that order. There are no colours, colours are just bounds set up to distinguish certain light waves from others.

Author:  Clayton [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

That doesn't mean our eyes all see the same color from the same wavelength of light. While I see your point (believe me, I've thought about this many times), I still think that it's hard to just say that any one given wavelength with always look the same to every person (excluding color blindness to eliminate confusion).

Author:  Nick [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

also you know that there are colours that aren't visable to the humans eyes?

imagine all the colors that are out there it doesn't neccasarly mean that instaed of my green you see purple, you could see a colour I've never seen in my life instead of green

Author:  richcash [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

Clayton wrote:
That doesn't mean our eyes all see the same color from the same wavelength of light. While I see your point (believe me, I've thought about this many times), I still think that it's hard to just say that any one given wavelength with always look the same to every person (excluding color blindness to eliminate confusion).


Take all the colours (or shades) that you can possibly see. Put them in order so they make a smooth gradient, so that each colour is as similar as possible to the colours beside it. You come up with the same gradient (or rainbow) that is created by gradually changing the wavelength of a light wave. It HAS to be in that order. You can't put what I call violet beside what I call yellow, that's not a smooth gradient. If I saw a different shade than you did when looking at the same wavelength, then why if you change that wavelength slightly we both see a colour that's almost the same?

Unless you mean there are NO colours or shades in common from human's brain to human's brain. Is that what you're saying? Okay, maybe, but what's the point of saying that? Relative to our own colour spectrum, we all still see the same world and none of us could see anything from another person's world. I highly, highly, highly doubt this.

momop wrote:
also you know that there are colours that aren't visable to the humans eyes?

imagine all the colors that are out there it doesn't neccasarly mean that instaed of my green you see purple, you could see a colour I've never seen in my life instead of green


Colours are created by our brain to help us see a vision or image of the world around us. I think you mean there are light waves that are not visible to human's eyes (such as microwaves and x-rays). But I don't see how that's relavent to colour. Unless you mean what I said above about everyone having their own spectrum of colours, but that doesn't really matter. If that is so, then there is no overlap between any colours our brains create anyway.

Author:  richcash [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

Oh, but I guess it's possible that some people's colour spectrum or colour range could be completely opposite of others'. There would be no way I can think of to disprove that someone sees the exact opposite shade that you see on the colour spectrum. So that would leave two types of humans' visions.

Author:  TokenHerbz [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

hmm, Think about this..

A baby was born, and kept at home and home schooled until the age of 20. He was wrongfully taught colors, our black he was told yellow, our purple he was told orange. Basically he was taught the wrong colors. How hard would it be for him to re-learn the correct ones?

This is just a side note, a thought that just popped into my head now, I remember a small experiment where people worse glasses which inverted their vision, they worse these for over a week straight and eventually the brain re-wired their eyes so they would see correctly. So now when they took off their glasses they had their vision all wacked out.

Author:  Clayton [ Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

richcash wrote:
Unless you mean there are NO colours or shades in common from human's brain to human's brain. Is that what you're saying? Okay, maybe, but what's the point of saying that? Relative to our own colour spectrum, we all still see the same world and none of us could see anything from another person's world. I highly, highly, highly doubt this.


Bingo. Why should my spectrum look the same as yours? And why should that be so hard to believe?

Author:  richcash [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do People Think?

Oh, okay, that's not so hard to believe. I guess we could all have a different set of unique colours. But do you at least agree with me that my purple can't be your yellow, my green can't be your red, etc. because if you mixed up all the colours that would ruin the smooth gradient/spectrum that everyone sees when changing wavelengths? It would have to be a completely different set of colours, right?

@TokenHerbz : I don't think that person would have a hard time learning to say different names for their colours. That's only as hard as learning colours in another language.

@original topic : I think if were 'programmed' we wouldn't be given the ability to wonder whether we have true decision-making or if we are controlled by the logic of our program. Why would the 'programmer' 'program' his 'programs' to question if they were 'programmed'? But it is impossible to prove.

Author:  Clayton [ Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  RE:Do People Think?

I was just using random examples to try and show you what I meant. Basically though, all of my colours would still blend into a smooth gradient, even if they aren't the same looking to you as they are to me.


: