Computer Science Canada freedom of speech |
Author: | bugzpodder [ Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | freedom of speech |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6197543.stm This isnt exactly news in that Yahoo! had released names of bloggers to the chinese authority which ultimately lead to their arrests. But exactly what does this mean in terms of us? A while back I've heard that a kid threatened to replay the Dawson college shootings by calling the guy a "saint" on myspace. But he was immediately arrested on the grounds of making threats.. My point is, what you say on your blog could be incriminating... so what's the difference? Who gets to decide if someone has violated the law? The government. So how is it that we supposedly have the freedom of speech, while people in china allegedly doesnt? |
Author: | bugzpodder [ Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
wikipedia Quote: The constitutional provision that guarantees Freedom of expression in Canada is section 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. 2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: ... (b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication Due to section 1 of the Charter, the so-called limitation clause, Canada's freedom of expression is not absolute and can be limited under certain situations. Section 1 of the Charter states: The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. (emphasis added) |
Author: | TokenHerbz [ Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:37 pm ] |
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061230/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saddam_14 |
Author: | 1of42 [ Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:33 am ] |
Post subject: | |
I'm sorry, but what exactly is your question here? Why we have free speech as Canadian citizens, while Chinese citizens don't? I would think that's obvious. Because we live in Canada, and they live in China. The fact that the forum in which the speech is directed is the Internet makes no difference. |
Author: | bugzpodder [ Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:09 am ] |
Post subject: | |
that is precisely the question... why do you think Canadians have the freedom of speech and the Chinese doesn't? This obviously seem to be the general consensus. However, whatever you say can be "used against you in a court of law" in both countries. The only difference here is that there are more things you can't say in China (and a lot of them are unreasonable), which translates to that there are more freedom of speech in Canada than China, not that the Chinese does not have freedom of speech, right? |
Author: | TokenHerbz [ Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:44 pm ] |
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each country has there own rules and laws. |
Author: | Andy [ Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:36 pm ] |
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i think bugz was pointing out the western hypocrisy of freedom of speech. canadians/americans believe they have that freedom and continue to attack the countries who dont. While in reality, people aren't as free as they think they are. |
Author: | we64 [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:42 am ] |
Post subject: | |
don't you ask yourself what does free really mean? Because I can't seem to really get the definition of free, it doesn't matter what the dictionary tells you (and t doesn't explain much anyways). What do you think free means? Generally people would tell me something like being free, you can do whatever you want. Clearly that is not what free means. Then some people would tell me, you can do whatever you want under certain rules and laws. But that is just weird, isn't it? almost like playing a game, you can't hit that or break that, because it is set by the rules, programs in this case. YOU ARE FREE IN THIS ENVIRONMENT though. But really? is that what free is all about? playing in a game with set of rules (laws?) Probably lots of people disagree with this one too... So after all, what is free? what are we really talking about when we say the word free? |
Author: | unknowngiver [ Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:freedom of speech |
In my opnion,there is no such thing as "Freedom". It is just a bunch of things that you are allowed to do by the government |
Author: | Amailer [ Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:freedom of speech |
Why, do you want people to have complete freedom? Do you know how much chaos that would cause? |
Author: | Remm [ Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: freedom of speech |
/Agree All freedoms need limitations to keep people from chaotic actions. Just look at any instance where someone has been 'above the law'. Between Canada and China, it really isnt a matter of who is free, but who has more of that freedom, since nither are truely free. |
Author: | Craige [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: freedom of speech |
I heard about this, and I think it's ridiculous the way it went down. North Americas views on Freedom of Speech is horribly unfair. We believe in Freedom of Speech, but believe that only we should have it. Are we all not of the same human race? Why should it matter if one is writing from China or North America? You either believe everybody should have Freedom of Speech, or they shouldn't. Their should be no barrier of nationality to divide what we feel as a fundamental freedom. Yes, he broke the laws in his Country, but by our standards, what he wrote was acceptable. So why is it then, that he should be arrested because some chump decides to run his mouth to the China government? It's the same thing with the Sadam execution. He was tried under his laws, for a crime which should have been tried under the American Government. They had no right to try him under his own laws. He should have been tried under American law. |
Author: | Amailer [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:59 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:freedom of speech |
Why should he have been tried under American laws? He was being charged with murder of Iraqi people, not Americans. Though, I don't understand why they rushed through the whole thing, got him hanged before a holy day; As if they wanted more violence :/ He still had several other trials to go through. Also, who hangs now days? Thats just wow :\ I saw the video, pretty um, well his neck wasn't looking to good |
Author: | unknowngiver [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:freedom of speech |
Amailer @ Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:01 pm wrote: Why, do you want people to have complete freedom? Do you know how much chaos that would cause?
Nopes, unfortunately i don't! but thats the sad thing, we are not mature or responsible enough to enjoy complete freedom so we have to put limits to it! |
Author: | bugzpodder [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:freedom of speech |
i am not too familiar with Saddam, but one can be tried for crimes against humanity and genocide in international criminal court. cases that comes to mind are Milosevic and Hitler |
Author: | CodeMonkey2000 [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | RE:freedom of speech |
Bush and cheney should be tried for crimes against humanity too. They had no right to rush into iraq, and kill all the civilians there. They didnt have approveal from congress, so this war is technically illegal isnt it? |
Author: | apomb [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: freedom of speech |
Craige wrote: It's the same thing with the Sadam execution. He was tried under his laws, for a crime which should have been tried under the American Government. They had no right to try him under his own laws. He should have been tried under American law. what the HELL are you talking about? He didnt commit those crimes in America, why should he be tried as an american? that logic is quite flawed. Saddam never attacked the US, he never threatrened the US. Yes, he was murdering people and was a pretty crazy dictator, but thats the UN's job to clean up scum like that, its not the US's job to go around policing countries they can manipulate in order to show their "power" in the world. I DO NOT believe that the ends justify the means, since this war has killed more people (including Americans/Canadians) that would be perfectly fine back here at home if it weren't for Bush's arrogance/Idiocy. |
Author: | 1of42 [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: RE:freedom of speech |
spearmonkey2000 @ Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:03 pm wrote: Bush and cheney should be tried for crimes against humanity too. They had no right to rush into iraq, and kill all the civilians there. They didnt have approveal from congress, so this war is technically illegal isnt it?
Are you trying to be stupid? Kill "all the civilians there"? Is that just a bad joke? Even if the statement you just made is taken for the inane hyperbole it clearly is, and your more reasonable implied point (namely that the war in Iraq is unnecessary and possibly technically illegal) is considered, what you said still falls short. Wikipedia wrote: A crime against humanity is a term originating in Western system international law that refers to acts of persecution or any large scale atrocities against a body of people, as being the criminal offence above all others.
The Rome Statute Explanatory Memorandum states that crimes against humanity "are particularly odious offences in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority. I'm assuming you didn't know that definition ahead of time, so I decided to post it. Bush and Cheney, no matter their other flaws (and they are numerous), are NOT guilty of crimes against humanity. If you think they are, you're being purposefully ignorant. Neither Bush nor Cheney have ever directly targeted civilians in Iraq, nor have they ever purposefully set out to do any of the things that would constitute crimes against humanity. Yes, the war is stupid, misguided, possibly illegal, and so on, but don't be stupid and make obviously fallacious statements to get that opinion across. There is a world of difference between Bush/Cheney and those convicted of crimes against humanity in Iraq. Craige @ Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:53 am wrote: It's the same thing with the Sadam execution. He was tried under his laws, for a crime which should have been tried under the American Government. They had no right to try him under his own laws. He should have been tried under American law.
Oh yes of course, because an Iraqi dictator ordering or directly facilitating the murder of Iraqi civilians is a crime that shouldn't be tried under Iraqi law. Don't even try to bring out the "he was a sovereign ruler and therefore immune from prosecution for acts he perpetrated" argument. As for the Saddam case in general, I have grave reservations about its fairness, tinged as it was with obvious victor's justice, and a significant overlay of sectarian tensions. I believe that ultimately, he deserved execution for what he did, but I think the vehicle could have been much improved. |
Author: | md [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:freedom of speech |
Just to point out something I'm sure no one has thought of... Say Canada is attacked. Say those terrorist bastards are in country X (a small middle eastern country). Say the populace there supports the terrorists. Let's assume that plan A involves going over and killing the militant terrorists, but leaving the (still hating us and supporting the terrorists) populace alone. Seems like it'd be a bad situation where we'd get hurt bad (See Iraq War). Here's my proposed Plan B. Kill everyone. Bomb Country X so far into the ground that there is nothing left. Nothing. Anyone who survived we would gladly help, and we would rebuild the country after we destroyed it. But anyone who was a terrorist, was related to a terrorist, or lived in the same village as a terrorist would be killed. Preferably in the most gruesome way possibly; I like cluster bombs. Plan A is a moderately bad plan; we'd lose people. Plan B we can execute from afar, no casualties on our side but brutal extermination of our opponents. Plan A might lead our opponents to keep fighting since we are clearly to stupid to know how to fight properly. Plan B will scare the shit out of any survivors, any near by people; really everyone. No one is going to attack us if we are going to completely and utterly destroy their civilization in response. Personally I like plan B. It sends a ridiculously clear message that if you fuck with us you die. Your family dies. Everyone dies. Plan A just sends the message that we suck. And before anyone goes and says that that's a horrible idea; war is horrible. In war people die. I'd much rather have a very bloody (but short) war in which my opponents die and then never have to fight another war (until people forget) then fight a war in which lots of people on both sides die, and where I am made to look like a push over. The US followed plan A in Iraq, and look where it got them. Had they followed plan B there would be peace, peace by depopulation. |
Author: | apomb [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: freedom of speech |
md,. you do realize that it wasn't even the FUCKING IRAQIS that attacked the U.S, right? Therefore, either of those idiotic and Globally irresponsible actions would be unjustified and make people uproarious. Leave people the fuck alone, and you wont be fucked with yourselves. If you're saying its a good idea to bomb them because they were killing their own people, genocide, what have you, then your Plan B clearly ignores the fact that those people's lives would be worth saving. and in the end, You are the terrorist. By killing everyone in the country where a group of people was killing everyone just makes no sense. Theres absolutely no reason to interfere then, only to show your country doesn't like the bickering little country half way around the world thats hoarding all the oil you want, so you go and kill all the people and take the oil, and declare victory over a non-existent foe. Congratulations, you just won the Worst Politician in history award. ![]() |
Author: | md [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:08 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:freedom of speech |
Compwiz, I'm saying the current war plan sucks; and what I would do differently. I am not commenting on why the US is currently at war although that has a lot to do with the entrenched military industrial complex that controls the current president. However in say Afghanistan... |
Author: | apomb [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: freedom of speech |
I was going to say that, actually ... thats a place where excessive bombing would definately be welcomed ... just get the Canadian troops out first. |
Author: | ericfourfour [ Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:35 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:freedom of speech |
Are you actually serious md? You would bomb the shit out of a country and expect peace? |
Author: | Amailer [ Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:23 am ] |
Post subject: | RE:freedom of speech |
Md, there wouldn't have been peace, Im sure countries would be attacking the US (which would obviously affect us). Thats not a solution (nor is war btw ![]() |
Author: | md [ Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: freedom of speech |
Silly people, you're not thinking! Peace is "the state prevailing during the absence of war" (according to Google). Now, if there is no one living in an area there can be said to be peace in that area. Kill everyone in the middle east, and look peace! Now, obviously killing everyone is hard; there are too many places for people to hide. The solution then is just to destroy as much as possible and kill as many as possible. Civilian, terrorist, army; doesn't matter. If you're at war you should be in it to win; and like a game victory is by surrender or elimination. Quote: Md, there wouldn't have been peace, Im sure countries would be attacking the US (which would obviously affect us). No, if you kill everyone there is no one left to attack us. If you bomb them so far into the stone age that they have no way of attacking us they won't. It's really quite simple. Plus, if you show people that attacking you will result in the destruction of their culture, land, families, friends, pets, basically everything they have ever known then they will not attack you. It's like mutually assured destruction, except it's not mutual.
Quote: Thats not a solution (nor is war btw Razz) but your plan B was an even worse solution- I think that way more people would die, even though they hadn't to. Why should civilians get killed for some wrong someone else did? See Above. But basically the point is to make attacking us have known consequences that are so horrible no one will attack us. There are no civilians in war, only non-uniformed soldiers. The citizenry of your enemy are not innocent, nor are they detached from the war. They want their side to win, and they support their side however they can. Will killing "civilians" anger our enemy>? Probably, but as we are at war with them and our goal is to win it doesn't really matter how angry they are; just how dead. On a side note, one benefit of killing everyone ("civilians" included) is that there are then no families torn apart (well... between living and dead), thus no one left to hate us and want to attack us.
Quote: Are you actually serious md? You would bomb the shit out of a country and expect peace? Yes. If I were in charge of the war plan my plan would be to make war so horrendous that avoiding it at all costs would be a reality. Currently war is easy. Sure a few soldiers die, and it's expensive as hell; but it won't bankrupt the united states (quite yet) nor does the number of soldiers killed come close to say, the number of Americans killed by other Americans each year. Simply put right now war is an acceptable strategy, even if it is frowned upon by society. Likewise, terrorists know that the Americans won't kill civilians and that it's hard to actually pick the terrorist out of a crowd. Terrorists are currently immune, and war is easy. How will this lead to peace?
Now, If war meant that you're country got destroyed, anyone in said country was killed (terrorist, civilian, who cares) and all from over the horizon where you couldn't shoot back; wouldn't you as a leader of the country about to disappear from the face of the earth do everything you could to stop that from happening? If your a civilian in said country wouldn't you turn over your leaders if that's what was demanded? If you as the destroying nation demand that terrorist X is handed over along with anyone associated with him, I'm pretty certain it'd happen. Assuming you gave them the choice. Much better to just destroy the offending country for even allowing a terrorist to live there. That way everyone else would know how serious you are; and they'd get the terrorists for you. Now, just to make myself clear. War is bad. If you must go to war win the war. Victory is though elimination or surrender. Of those options elimination can be done cheaper, quicker, and will less potential loss to your side. Attempting to eliminate your opponent with bombs is also a great way of destroying their will to fight, making surrender quite possible too. So if you're going to start a war, don't be a pansy. Go all in and destroy everything. That way no one will challenge you again. |