Computer Science Canada

Support Coherent Posting!
Author:  Clayton [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Support Coherent Posting!
I have recently noticed that the quality of grammar and spelling has dropped considerably in posts. Every day it seems that more and more people speak poorer and poorer English (sorry if some of you don't speak English as a first language, ignore this post if English is not your first language).

The shortening of words that would otherwise take you an extra second to write is considerably irksome for me. The letter "u" is not a stand-in for the word "you". Nor is "ur" a stand-in for "your". The following list is compiled from proper english words, and their "shortened" "words":


  1. "u" -> "you"
  2. "cuz" -> "because" or "cousing"
  3. "ur" -> "your" or "you're"
  4. "bro" -> "dude" or similar (particularily annoying)
  5. "r" -> "are" or "our"
  6. "lol" or similar -> some form of laughing (really, just say haha or something, don't do the roflmao omg thing)
  7. "plz" -> "please"
  8. "thx" -> "thanks"
  9. "teh" -> "the" (I realize that this can be a spelling error, but when it happens more than 5 times in a post, slow down)
  10. "kno" -> "know"


Look at that, ten ways to be lazy just off the top of my head! Perhaps a one time use of one of the above is tolerable, but when the use of one of those symbolisms of laziness is used to the point of habit, something is wrong, and needs to be thought about.

Honestly, is it that hard to type "yo" before that "u", or spell "please" properly? Think about it this way, if someone in your english class passed you a piece of writing to hand in for marks, and you saw the above "words" on their assignment, what would you do? That is the exact way I feel, and some others on this forum feel when they see posts as such.

Lastly, I'll leave you with a message from md:
md wrote:

Seriously, you must have failed english to think that writing like that is acceptable. Not only am I fairly certain he isn't your "Bro", but "you" isn't and has never been spelled "u" and your grammar is atrocious. I suggest reading some books, maybe going to english class next semester.


And one more for the road:

md wrote:

[For those of you] ... who seemingly can't write proper english, "u" is not a word, nor is "kno"; the words are "you" and "know". Seriously, the added effort to type correctly is infinitesimally small so please write like someone who didn't fail grade 1 english.


Please just think about this the next time you fill up your post with "u"'s and "ur"'s.

</rant>
Author:  cool dude [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
hahaha nice topic Freakman. Just want to point out that usually if people just learned english they would never use these shortened words. It is the people who know english well and know how to spell you and other words properly are the ones that choose the shortened forms. A lot of it has to do with laziness although some of it has to do with developed habit. people that use msn frequently develop a habit of spelling you as u and other shortened words. I myself are one of those people and once on my essay spelled you as u although i caught the mistake when proof reading. Smile It really doesn't bother me and it shouldn't bother you. if those people choose to be illeterate (ha not sure on the spelling) then it is only worse for them.
Author:  Clayton [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
The funny thing is though, this is NOT MSN. The way you talk on MSN is the way you talk on MSN, the way you talk on forums though, should be completely different. Take into effect that some people can't read as well as others and perhaps you should try and make your post make sense at the very least.
Author:  wtd [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
I cannot support discrimination against people on the basis of something as superficial as the skill with which they communicate their thoughts.
Author:  md [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think that's a 12 on the sarcasmometer wtd Wink

Not only is this NOT MSN but most people don't type like that on MSN either. If you were to write like that at work or school then you'd be lucky to keep your job or pass. Why should the internet be any different? Writing coherent sentences is a key requirement to expressing yourself, and if you cannot do that then what the point? People come here for help and to share what they have learned. If you are unwilling to take the time to ask your question in such a way that other people can understand it, or answer in a way that other know what you are saying, then why bother? If all your going to do is contribute random noise then please, contribute it elsewhere; if you are here to help, then write coherently. It's really quite simple.
Author:  rdrake [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
cool dude wrote:
A lot of it has to do with laziness although some of it has to do with developed habit. people that use msn frequently develop a habit of spelling you as u and other shortened words.
I'd have to say that IRC would be worse than MSNM, for this.

The whole point of using proper grammar and spelling is to convay information successfully to the majority of readers, this is the whole point of making a post. One who chooses to improperly misspell words degrades the value of their posts greatly. Is spelling things wrong bad? No, nobody is perfect, but substituting "words" in for words purposely is definitely a problem.

Lastly, wtd, Laughing.
Author:  xHoly-Divinity [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'll I have to say is.... welcome to the 21st century. Every other forum/blog community on the internet uses internet slang. I invite you to check out another forum site if you haven't already done so. Enlighten yourselves... I don't understand why it's such a big deal if someone uses shortened slang words anyway. As for communication, if anyone does not understand the meaning of 'plz' or 'u' then they are either: a) not very bright individuals; or b) have never used MSN messenger or checked out another forum

Obviously no one is going to write like that on a term paper or a job application. It's like comparing how you talk with your friends with how you would talk to your boss. No one is that stupid.... I hope
Author:  CodeMonkey2000 [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
ill try not to use internet slang, but its just hard when you have been doing it soo often, and see everyone else do it. do you think we might slowly loosing the english language?, because(hehe, i was about to write cuz) people are starting to use "pwn","lol","roflemao" in thier daily lives.
Author:  rdrake [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
xHoly-Divinity wrote:
I'll I have to say is.... welcome to the 21st century.
Thank you, everything is so shiny here.
xHoly-Divinity wrote:
Every other forum/blog community on the internet uses internet slang. I invite you to check out another forum site if you haven't already done so.
Everybody uses internet slang. Was "blog" a household name 10 years ago? No! It's commonplace to hear that word used now (with the exception of my house in 10 years, when such words would be banned).
xHoly-Divinity wrote:
Enlighten yourselves... I don't understand why it's such a big deal if someone uses shortened slang words anyway.
The point of asking for help on a forum is to typically get help, an opinion, or something similar. By using proper grammar, English, etc., you are making it easier for the vast majority of people to understand your post, and reply accordingly. Ever go to Turing help? Typically those questions which are asked most clearly get the best response.
xHoly-Divinity wrote:
As for communication, if anyone does not understand the meaning of 'plz' or 'u' then they are either: a) not very bright individuals; or b) have never used MSN messenger or checked out another forum
The point is not whether or not somebody understands it, it's the fact that reading messages with such substitions made makes it hard to understand the post. If somebody's post is that difficult to read, I will skip it. If somebody's post contains no spacing or paragraphs, I will skip it. Does this lead to more replies? Absolutely not.

xHoly-Divinity wrote:
Obviously no one is going to write like that on a term paper or a job application. It's like comparing how you talk with your friends with how you would talk to your boss. No one is that stupid.... I hope
Again missing the point. In Off Topic, nobody cares about how one writes. In fact, anybody who wishes to keep their sanity avoids that forum. However when asking a question, it is most important to make your post clear, concise, and properly written. Also a proper reply, in order to be understood fully, will also contain the qualities above.
Author:  Mazer [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
It begins Twisted Evil
Author:  Clayton [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
err, what begins?
Author:  Mazer [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Who cares what, something I believe in has caught on! Hoorai~!
Author:  Craige [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree with everything here, except 1 word: Bro. While I do agree this word should be spelled bro' or brother, I do not agree it should be excluded from anybodies daily speech, even when used to refer to somebody who is not your brother. I have a few people I call brothers who are not related to me in any way, and are not even in the same country. I still call them brothers though, because we have formed such a close bond with each other. It's considering them as close as family. My family has the same thing with one of my sisters friends. He may not be related to us, but he his my sisters bother, and thus my brother, and my mothers son.

However, as I stated, I do agree with what you are saying. Laziness is not a reason for using such language. English is one of the greatest languages on the planet, and half of those who claim to speak the language use words like "pwnd" or "plz". I mean, seriously, what do you get out of that? It only makes your posts/I.M.'s harder to read. I do not accept laziness as an excuse either. If you actually typed full words once and a while, it would not seem like such a chore to type "please" or "your".

So please people, learn to use the English language.
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:15 am ]
Post subject: 
wtd wrote:
I cannot support discrimination against people on the basis of something as superficial as the skill with which they communicate their thoughts.


Even if you ment this in sarcasm (witch i hope you did not), it is a very valid point. The thoughts that are being communicated are what is impotent not how they are communicated. How some one says something dose not effect the vaildit of it or the intelligence of it.

Honestly to me, most of the above sounds like people being Gamer Nazis. The english language is not a static thing that never changes and is written in stone. Usages such as u for you, r for are, ect are acuatialy part of the english language whether you like it or not. Langue is not a bunch of deftions written in a book, it is what is generally uses and know in that area. Since you clearly know the meaning of all thess short forms, it shows that it is becoming part of the language. The best way you can fight this is simply not to use them, however sticking your head in the sand is not going to make them go away. My point is "u" IS a stand in for "you", and "ur" IS a stand-in for "your".

Now as for "teh", this is not a short form, this is a type-o and if you are now going to complain about people having type-os, you realy need to get a life. (however i know this can also be used in some 1337 speak versions) It happens, get over it. This can also be the case with "kno".

And come on you have a problem with "lol" and "rofl"? Maybe you would like it if we wrote all posts in formal english in 3rd person past tenses and do not refure to the self at all?

In all honestly the one being lazy is you if you can not stand a few "u"s to get to the true meaning of a post. Sure some posts that use bad gamer and shorten forms are useless and just over all bad, but then again some are extermaly valuable and contrubit deeply to the community. Impelying that bad gramer, spelling and short forms means some one is dumb or there point is, is like saying that because you are of one race, skin color, sex or religion your points on anything are less valuable. Realy this is turning in to the new way to distrimante agsited peoleop online.

You say learn english, i say learn to appeted to new times or just don't read my posts, it is your lose.
Author:  CodeMonkey2000 [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:28 am ]
Post subject: 
imo (is imo ok?) english is not the greatest language. no offence to anyone, it's just that english has too many faults, the writing isn't fully phonetic (like Marahti, my original language, this is also the reason why it is hard for new immagrants to learn, because those who speak phonetic languages, its hard to understand that k can make a koo and ka sound even though it is still only just one character), it's not quite as pricise as most other languages. it has the problem with homophes which nonexistent with other languages. and overall i find the english grammer comfusing (but that's only becuase english isn't my first language)

that bieng said it is important to communicate your ideas in a way that the reader does not need to decrypt what you are saying, which is the whole point of this thread.
Author:  wtd [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:28 am ]
Post subject: 
Hacker Dan wrote:
Gamer Nazis.


While I understand how this came about, I'd just like to say that this random happenstance is fantastic.
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:32 am ]
Post subject: 
wtd wrote:
Hacker Dan wrote:
Gamer Nazis.


While I understand how this came about, I'd just like to say that this random happenstance is fantastic.


This is why i hate spell checkers.....
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:08 am ]
Post subject: 
This clearly is a case of do as i say not as i do:

md wrote:

IIRC The DirectX documentation actually explains.....


md wrote:

why shud i be banned... wtd kept on flaming and....


md wrote:

You also don't need a new router, just forward teh required ports to your new server.


md wrote:

Thinkpads are really teh best laptops your llikely to be able to.....


md wrote:

It's a linkter error, from the looks of it not all teh glut functions......


FreakMan wrote:

source? heh ill give you the bits you gave him lol


FreakMan wrote:

you actually read the whole thing? you should be proud of yourself... lol


FreakMan wrote:

all right thnx for the help Smile have 1 bit lol Twisted Evil


FreakMan wrote:

(on the screen, not outta my hand lol)


FreakMan wrote:

@Tony: wow, um i dont know what to say about that lol


FreakMan wrote:

lol i know what u mean i have 4 exams next week and revising is a b***h, but yea,.......


FreakMan wrote:

oh ok thnx alot, talk about a brain fart lol


FreakMan wrote:

....especially for a teacher b/c they have to go through hundreds of marks....


There are many more examples of theses, esptaly with freakman, but i thought you could find them on your own.
Author:  md [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:15 am ]
Post subject: 
IMO and likewise IMHO are abreviations and are thus perfectly acceptable. "lol", "rofl" and other similar abreviations are also fine, so long as they are not used too much. It's only when you start replacing words with letters that it gets to be too much.

And yes, I do understand that some people who are not native english speakers might have a hard time with spelling but that is not an excuse to take the easy way out and start replacing words with letters. If anything taking the time to write out things correctly will only help you learn the language.

La francais et ausi acceptable. Mais ma francais n'est pas ci bien.
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:23 am ]
Post subject: 
md wrote:
It's only when you start replacing words with letters that it gets to be too much.


md wrote:

why shud i be banned... wtd kept on flaming and....



Any how my point is that theses short forms replacing words are now part of the english language. Much like how you would not talk like how you write an essay, you do not write online like how you would write an essay or talk in real like. As i side befor if you can not handel change, it is your problem since the peoleop who write this way are not going to stop just becues you do not like it.
Author:  rdrake [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Read:
Quote:
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, olny taht the frist and lsat ltteres are at the rghit pcleas. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by ilstef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
Easy, no? Now ask yourself:

  1. Was every word in the above spelt correctly?
  2. Was proper grammar used in the above?
  3. Did you understand the message in the above?
  4. Which of the three properties of a message above is most important?
So if grammar and spelling aren't everything, then what is? The message. If I don't understand what the poster is asking, saying, etc., then I cannot reply. How could I? There is nothing to reply to. Just a steaming pile of bastardized English.

Spelling and grammar clarify a message, this is why they are important to have if possible.
Author:  [Gandalf] [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:40 am ]
Post subject: 
md wrote:

why shud i be banned... wtd kept on flaming and....

1. md didn't even write that, it was in a quote.
2. I believe he is talking about letters replacing words, not simple typos (as "shud" seems to be).

md wrote:
La francais et ausi acceptable. Mais ma francais n'est pas ci bien.

Now now, let's not turn this topic into something like so: this. Surprised
Author:  md [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Dan, "teh" is a result of the way I type, and try as I might I do not always catch it. Likewise a single miss-spelling of "should" is not a big deal. A handful of quotes out of almost 2000 posts (use the search) is not very shocking.

On the other hand people who consistently use "u", "ur", etc. should definitely get less sympathy.
Author:  bugzpodder [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:37 am ]
Post subject: 
u kno when i first read about this topic i was thinking of something else namely hacking phpbb to replace these misspelled words into their correct forms XD i mean after all, if u guys have a problem with these things, wouldnt it be easier to come up with such a feature in V3, rahter than pestering all of us... you can incorprorate Dan's dictionary in it too! of course, another nice feature would be to reject all posts with misspelled words. but that would piss many of us off
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
To md, and thous sundly say that "lol" and "teh" are ok:

Maybe you should aucatly read a topic befor you stick it in your sig saying you support it becues freakman cleary lists both lol and teh under the things that are "bad" or "wrong".

Also i would never use the word censor to mess with peoples wirten language just to make a few people that care more about how something is wirten then what is written happy. They know they are using "u", "ur" "b/c", ect, and it is not a spelling mistake. The fact that you whould even sugested stoping posts becues of spelling errors or the use of such words sadnes me.

If you relay have such a problem with it you are free to leave and make your own site where you can ban any one who has a type-o or dose not use formal english in composing there easy posts for your statsfication.
Author:  xHoly-Divinity [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well... the most important thing of a message is that it is understood. I can't say I have seen too many posts where this is an issue (due to 'slang'). "English" is clearly evolving. If you compare 'modern day' englsih to that of say Shakespearean English, it is wayyyyy different. They would say that we are butchering the language, but that is simply how it has evolved. The same goes for this..
Author:  Clayton [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hacker Dan wrote:

Maybe you should aucatly read a topic befor you stick it in your sig saying you support it becues freakman cleary lists both lol and teh under the things that are "bad" or "wrong".

Freakman wrote:

9. "teh" -> "the" (I realize that this can be a spelling error, but when it happens more than 5 times in a post, slow down)


And Dan, all of those posts of mine that you pointed out, I have what, almost 1100 posts (Off Topic posts included), and nowhere near all of them have that kind of wording or phrases in them. If you could concretely prove that I routinely use them in most if not all of my posts, then please do.

Also, as stated above, an occasional "lol" here and there doesn't really bother me. But when every other sentence ends or includes lol, it starts to get really annoying, really fast.

The same is true for smilies, one or two maybe, but anything in excess is too much. This was kind of the whole idea of the thread. Everything in moderation. Just keep it clear and readable.

Call me a perfectionist, call me old-fashioned, but "u" has never been, nor will it ever be, a stand-in for "you". That is my view, take it or leave it.
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
Freakman wrote:

Call me a perfectionist, call me old-fashioned, but "u" has never been, nor will it ever be, a stand-in for "you". That is my view, take it or leave it.


Then why do you use it in your own posts?

Quote:

If you could concretely prove that I routinely use them in most if not all of my posts, then please do.


Ok, but you asked for it (all below are qoutes from freakmans posts):

Quote:

If you need help, plz give a description of the problem.


Quote:

first of all, when you are posting you .exes, plz just compress.....


Quote:

im sure some of you are having heart attacks right now and thats fine, plz let me know how i can............


Quote:

........unless you have something really important to add, plz take a gander.....


Quote:

HAVE CORRECT SPELLING, PUNCTUATION, and GRAMMAR PLZ!


Quote:

.....you are doing the tut, and im sure he will PM.....


Quote:

....look at other tuts in the Turing Walkthrough if you have to...


Quote:

vahnx this is a 2 month old topic, plz dont be a necromancer........


Quote:

.....but plz refrain from doing this in the future


Quote:

first thing, when you post your .exe plz compress it.......


Quote:

could you plz post some code so we can tell what youve attempted so far?


Quote:

.........my code and see if you can figure out why its happening, thx in advance for your help


Quote:

...... take a look at that and tell me what you think plz


Quote:

NOTE: I dont have access to Turing, so if this code doesn't run, dont harp about it plz


Quote:

Martin can u take me with you plz? that sounds like a lot of fun


Quote:

...........i can derive the length using the length function, thnx for the help Cervantes


Quote:

....... if your not thrilled with this idea let me know plz


Quote:

goin overseas? goin campin? plz do tell


Quote:

yep i understand that now Very Happy thnx for all the help on this


Quote:

.......lets just NOT start another debate on that one plz *sigh*


Quote:

i just named them that because i was drawing a blank on what to call them Embarassed thnx again for the tips


Quote:

plz comment on how it could be improved Very Happy


Quote:

i dont have any control over it barely cuz it moves so fast,


Quote:

all right thnx for the help Smile have 1 bit lol Twisted Evil


Quote:

thnx i thought about that but didnt think that it worked that......


Quote:

.........id like to see your character module, so plz post


Quote:

......explain it in a bit more of step-by-step thing plz


Quote:

could you post code plz......


Quote:

we cant really help u unless we can see what you are doing


Quote:

P.S. plz use [code ][/code] tags when posting



Ok that is only the ones form the 1st 2 pages of over 6 pages of sreach results. I could go threw every case and there whould be in the 100s of cases but it whould take alot of time and this post whould be so big that ff whould not be able to send it. Thats about 10% of your posts, witch is consdireably lagre for some one who states such things in there sig.

Now lets talk about gramer since it is so imporent to you. Also every one of your posts that i found when sreaching has not captizaion or lacked it some where. Also almost all the posts where missing punction some where, estpaly a big lacking of "."s. Now i bet i could go threw almost every one of your posts and find either a gramer error, spelling error or the use of one of your bad words.

Maybe befor you go and juge other peoleops posts you shoudl juge your own.
Author:  Cervantes [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey Dan, have you looked at the dates on those search results? Most of them are fairly old. People change.

You're attacking md and Freakman for poor typing, yet they are examples of people who communicate effectively. Nobody is perfect, but they're many orders of magnitude closer to perfection than are the people they're railing.

I side with md and Freakman on this issue, but I realize that people who type like Freakman described in the first post are very unlikely to change, so I typically keep my mouth shut.
Author:  bugzpodder [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
freakman you should have done the search yourself and edit these posts so dan wouldnt have any proof Wink
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cervantes wrote:

You're attacking md and Freakman for poor typing.


I am attacking them for being hyprcipits and for being discrimtiationy over somthing that is unimporent just so they can fell they are better then every one eltes.

It is easy to go out and say that every one who misspells or uses bad gramer is dumb, lazy, and idoits and just disregard ever thing they say. Then you don't have to aucatly read it and have any kind of inetcletual thought.

Shure they tack on "other then peoleop that don't have english as a first langue" but how do they aucatly know who and who dose not know english as a first langue. They just assume they do and consider them idioits right off the bat. There are also tones of other reasons why some one might spell wrong or use bad gramer, ranging from crapy keyborad, to typeing fast or even learning disblitys, but again we just assume they are dumb and/or lazy.

Now the hole "u" vs "you" thing is another debate one witch whould aucatly be intresting and insightfull if aucatly debated. But you guys just came and declaered it wrong and then slaped it in your sig along with spelling and gramer.

I perosnaly used to use u in place of u alot and other short froms, this is for a few reasons. The main one is that it is closer to the pehoentic spelling and redueces type-os and spelling errors, esptaly with longer words. Since you guys have problems with spelling you whould think you whould perfure a spelled right short from to a spelled wrong long form.

I know that this post was no way aimed at me (or at least i can hope) but i was still hurt by this. How can you know the peoleop you are cretizing have no learning disblity or are new to english? You don't you just assume the worst in peoleop. Maybe i just think that we should assume the best and juge peoleop on there ideas and not superfiucal means.

Shure nice spelling and full words are nice and all but pointing out spelling errors, making rants about them and posting links to it in your sig is not going to change them or stop peoleop from using short froms or magicly make there spell better.
Author:  md [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hacker Dan wrote:
I am attacking them for being hyprcipits and for being discrimtiationy over somthing that is unimporent just so they can fell they are better then every one eltes.
We are neither hypocrites or being discriminatory. We simply believe that mangling the english language by replacing words with letters (which don't even technically make the same sound) when typing is bad and leads to poor communication.

Hacker Dan wrote:
It is easy to go out and say that every one who misspells or uses bad gramer is dumb, lazy, and idoits and just disregard ever thing they say. Then you don't have to aucatly read it and have any kind of inetcletual thought.
Yes, it is quite easy to do so. Good thing we aren't. We're attacking a very specific case which has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of disability. We take issue with people who consciously replace english words with letters (or otherwise mangle words) in an attempt to "type faster", even though it does not make typing any faster and only serves as a hindrance to communication.

Hacker Dan wrote:
Shure they tack on "other then peoleop that don't have english as a first langue" but how do they aucatly know who and who dose not know english as a first langue. They just assume they do and consider them idioits right off the bat. There are also tones of other reasons why some one might spell wrong or use bad gramer, ranging from crapy keyborad, to typeing fast or even learning disblitys, but again we just assume they are dumb and/or lazy.
You're right, I do assume that people mistype on purpose first. But then this is only about people who are quite clearly doing it on purpose. This thread is not about people who can't spell, or people who type too fast, or people with learning disabilities. It's about people who clearly know how to type properly (and have been seen to do so in the past) but who choose to replace certain specific words with letters. If someone truly has a disability which causes them to type horrendously then I am more then willing to give them leeway; however when confronted so far everyone who we are targeting with this thread has provided the reasoning that "everyone else writes like that". To quote one of the more recent defenses
xHoly-Divinity wrote:
I'll I have to say is.... welcome to the 21st century. Every other forum/blog community on the internet uses internet slang. I invite you to check out another forum site if you haven't already done so. Enlighten yourselves... I don't understand why it's such a big deal if someone uses shortened slang words anyway. As for communication, if anyone does not understand the meaning of 'plz' or 'u' then they are either: a) not very bright individuals; or b) have never used MSN messenger or checked out another forum

Obviously no one is going to write like that on a term paper or a job application. It's like comparing how you talk with your friends with how you would talk to your boss. No one is that stupid.... I hope
Just because a small subset of people (and it IS a small subset) of people write horrendously does not mean it is ok for everyone to do so. To refute that specific quote; the issue is not that we can't understand but that it takes significantly more effort. The fact is that some of us find reading crap like "u" and "plz" to be not worth the effort, and we are not willing to put in the effort to help (or even listen sometimes) to someone who is not willing to take the effort to write coherent english. Oh, and for all you know I *could* be your boss, or I could be a dog. Just because you do not know who I am in the real world does not mean you should treat me any differently then if you did.



Hacker Dan wrote:
Now the hole "u" vs "you" thing is another debate one witch whould aucatly be intresting and insightfull if aucatly debated. But you guys just came and declaered it wrong and then slaped it in your sig along with spelling and gramer.
Because it is. It makes reading harder, does not make typing faster, and if it were pronounced phonetically doesn't even sound like the word being replaced.

Hacker Dan wrote:
I perosnaly used to use u in place of u alot and other short froms, this is for a few reasons. The main one is that it is closer to the pehoentic spelling and redueces type-os and spelling errors, esptaly with longer words. Since you guys have problems with spelling you whould think you whould perfure a spelled right short from to a spelled wrong long form.
Words have only one proper spelling. There is no "correct short form" and "correct long form" only the correct form. If you personally have issues with spelling then you are free to do anything you wish in order to try and express your thoughts in a way that other people can understand more easily. That does not mean that you are necessarily writing properly as per the english language. I have trouble reading what you write Dan, as I'm sure many people do. However you try to write in such a way that we can understand easier and better. People who have no trouble writing properly and yet prefer not to are who we are targeting here, not you.



Hacker Dan wrote:
I know that this post was no way aimed at me (or at least i can hope) but i was still hurt by this. How can you know the peoleop you are cretizing have no learning disblity or are new to english? You don't you just assume the worst in peoleop. Maybe i just think that we should assume the best and juge peoleop on there ideas and not superfiucal means.
I assume that people write the way they do on purpose because often times when they do you can tell. The words they use, and how they use them show that they could write better and choose not to. Assuming that people all have a disability and can't write properly is just plain stupid. We *know* most people can write properly, and we *know* that some people simply write poorly because they think it's cool. Giving the benefit of the doubt simply encourages them when what they need is to be shown that writing poorly in any circumstance is not acceptable if you can help it.

Being an optimist is all fine and dandy; but if you intend to actually get anything done you need to be realistic.

Hacker Dan wrote:
Shure nice spelling and full words are nice and all but pointing out spelling errors, making rants about them and posting links to it in your sig is not going to change them or stop peoleop from using short froms or magicly make there spell better.
Won't it? Ostracizing people until they improve their ways usually works very well at making them change. El comandante used to be an ass, and yet after being ignored, flamed, and generally ridiculed he as become a much more mature member of compsci.ca and where I wasn't willing to help him with the smallest of problems before I am now more then willing to help him. I know that I am not alone in this either. Posting threads like this and attacking posts where people write poorly serves to embarrass and annoy people who write poorly, hopefully to the point where they stop doing it.

Were these people stealing instead of writing poorly and were we sentencing them to jail as opposed to detailing their poor writing and criticizing them I am sure that no one would take issue at all. Sure you may argue stealing and writing poorly are two different things, but the idea behind what we are doing (or would hypothetically be doing) is the same. Provide a strong enough deterrent and people will change their ways.
Author:  jamonathin [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
"IMO", you guys type a lot -> [mega poster md]. If you're a little unshure on what all 'teh' short forms are, play World of Warcraft for a week, you'll catch on. It just faster and lazier.

Think of it this way, one day it'll be really bad, someone could write a dictionary about it (That could be YOU!) and make millions.

Edit '1234' bits ftw.
Author:  Clayton [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Dan, all of those quotes from old posts are just that, old. Since then I have learned that typing "u" and "ur" has not helped me in any way. I now use the best grammar and spelling I can use. Sure I slip up sometimes, I'm sure if you looked there would be a fairly recent post with "plz" or something in it, but I do my best to not make it a habit. In that regard, this thread is not aimed towards those who use said "words" every now and then, but those who routinely use letters as words.

Hacker Dan wrote:

I am attacking them for being hyprcipits and for being discrimtiationy over somthing that is unimporent just so they can fell they are better then every one eltes.


I feel in no way any better than anyone else by creating this thread and actively participate in this debate. If you or anyone else feel this way, you are sorely mistaken.

As md so rightly said:

md wrote:

This thread is not about people who can't spell, or people who type too fast, or people with learning disabilities.


This is in fact for the people who continually and conciously use poor grammar or spelling simply because it give the image of being "cool" or a "1337 H4X0Rz". This thread was created because I am tired of trying to decipher the difference between things that are words, and letters that are *supposed* to be standing in for words.

Hacker Dan wrote:

Now the hole "u" vs "you" thing is another debate one witch whould aucatly be intresting and insightfull if aucatly debated. But you guys just came and declaered it wrong and then slaped it in your sig along with spelling and gramer.


That would be because, quite simply put, it is wrong. "U" is not the word "you". Nor is "plz" the word "please". Really, sound out "plz", does it sound anything like the actual word "please?" That is the point, when you see these abbreviations/stand-ins or whatever the case may be, you have to spend more time thinking about what the meaning of the "word" you are reading is. This leaves less time to study the problem at hand.

Hacker Dan wrote:

I know that this post was no way aimed at me (or at least i can hope) but i was still hurt by this. How can you know the peoleop you are cretizing have no learning disblity or are new to english? You don't you just assume the worst in peoleop. Maybe i just think that we should assume the best and juge peoleop on there ideas and not superfiucal means.


It was in no way whatsoever aimed towards you. Once again, this was aimed towards people who routinely use these words or abbreviations. Now, I'm not sure about you, but I think it can become fairly evident fairly quickly as to whether someone is doing something on purpose, or sincerly doesn't know how to spell something, or has some other sort of issue. That being said, the people who do routinely use these words know who they are, and hopefully they will stop, knowing how some people feel. Be as optimistic as you want, but at some point you are going to have to face reality: Life isn't fair.

Hacker Dan wrote:

Shure nice spelling and full words are nice and all but pointing out spelling errors, making rants about them and posting links to it in your sig is not going to change them or stop peoleop from using short froms or magicly make there spell better.


Perhaps not magically, but I know for a fact that it has already had some sort of positive effect int the IRC channel. Posting a link in my signature I feel is a good thing to do. Sure some people may not apprectiate it, but others may take a good long look at this and think long and hard. No one said this was going to be pretty, but some change will happen, and it will be both for the good and the bad.

Hacker Dan wrote:

It is easy to go out and say that every one who misspells or uses bad gramer is dumb, lazy, and idoits and just disregard ever thing they say. Then you don't have to aucatly read it and have any kind of inetcletual thought.


Yes it is easy. As I said above, you can tell fairly easily when someone is using poor grammar/spelling just to act or sound cool. I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't use proper spelling or grammar is an idiot (you being a living example), but that the majority are.

In the end, this is what I believe in, and I will fight it to the end.
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
md wrote:
We are neither hypocrites or being discriminatory. We simply believe that mangling the english language by replacing words with letters (which don't even technically make the same sound) when typing is bad and leads to poor communication.


If you say don't do somthing while cleary doing your self (in the case of freakman) then you are a hypocrite). I don't realy know what you can all it other then discriminiantory when you are saying a gorup of poeleop that use words in such a say are wrong, bad and lazy.



md wrote:
Yes, it is quite easy to do so. Good thing we aren't. We're attacking a very specific case which has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of disability. We take issue with people who consciously replace english words with letters (or otherwise mangle words) in an attempt to "type faster", even though it does not make typing any faster and only serves as a hindrance to communication.


This is not what the oringal post says, the post witch all your sigs link to. It cleary metions spelling in it. And using less letters dose make typing faster, maybe not for you but it dose for the peoleop that use it.

md wrote:

You're right, I do assume that people mistype on purpose first. But then this is only about people who are quite clearly doing it on purpose. This thread is not about people who can't spell, or people who type too fast, or people with learning disabilities.


Then why dose the oringal post cleary state spelling??? If you are linking to it in your sig you should at least be able to justify that.

md wrote:

Just because a small subset of people (and it IS a small subset) of people write horrendously does not mean it is ok for everyone to do so.


Shure it dose, this is how the english langue evloves over time, first it starts with a small gorup and grows bigger and bigger. The fact that you understand the short forms alone poves that it is not a small gorup that understands it and it is hardly a small gorup by any mesure that uses it. The english langue is not static and is allways changing. This is why new dictiornays are made every year, and sooner or latter one year will come about where LOL is going to be in there (if it is not all ready).

The english langue is about what peoleop use not about weather a bunch of stuck up peoleop like it or not. If peoleop start using "u" and other such short froms it becomes english. A good example of this is the word "doh" (yes from the simpsons) this is now a word acording to serveral dictionarys. The english langue is contstaly evlovling, either you can compain about it all day or learn to acecpt it.

md wrote:

To refute that specific quote; the issue is not that we can't understand but that it takes significantly more effort. The fact is that some of us find reading crap like "u" and "plz" to be not worth the effort, and we are not willing to put in the effort to help (or even listen sometimes) to someone who is not willing to take the effort to write coherent english.


And you side you where not being descirmiation, tisk, tisk, md. Not reading a post and not giving help just or even listen just becues they used plz or u is deaftly being discrimiatioy. English is not about the effort, if it was all words whould be spell phoenticaly and there whould not be crazy spelling rules threwn in semmingly at random. If anything this new movement is simplfing the langue and making it take less effort.

md wrote:

Oh, and for all you know I *could* be your boss, or I could be a dog. Just because you do not know who I am in the real world does not mean you should treat me any differently then if you did.


I realy don't see how using "u" or "plz" is treating some one badly or diffrenty. However calling them idoits or lazy for using them is. Also if you where my boss you whould allready know how bad my speling is. This is not a formal report to your boss, just like you whould not talk in formal english you whould not type online like you whould in a formal report.

md wrote:
Because it is. It makes reading harder, does not make typing faster, and if it were pronounced phonetically doesn't even sound like the word being replaced.


It makes reading slower only if you are not used to seeing such letters, in the english langue there are very few words with one or two letters. Most peoleop that see thess short froms learn to quicky notice them and read them as the letter not the sound it makes. Thess short froms are pheontic to the letters name not the sound it makes. Also it dose make typing faster if you know how to use them, one letter is less then two and so on.

md wrote:

Words have only one proper spelling. There is no "correct short form" and "correct long form" only the correct form.


Words in any langue are constly chaning, incuding there spelling. We offten have two diffrent words with the same meaning or vice versa. It might be easer for you to think of "u" and "you" as diffrent words with the same meaning. There deftaly is a correct speeling of short forms witch is becoming standard, if i where you say "rogl" insted of "rofl" no one whould understand what i was saying becues it is a "f" not a "g". It may not be listed in any offical dictioany but slang words deftaly do have a correct and incorrect spelling.

Also non slang words can have there spelling change over time. The spelling of some words from midevil english to now are quite diffrent and as another poster was talking about if you used our curent day english they whould think we are as crazy and lazy as you think most of the peoleop you are talking about are.

md wrote:

If you personally have issues with spelling then you are free to do anything you wish in order to try and express your thoughts in a way that other people can understand more easily.


If i can, then why can't peoleop that just whont to type faster? It is a free world, and english is made by the peoleop if they whont it to be somthing it will be. It is rather hard to make a new word or spelling or short from go away no matter how many rants you post or how much you fill your sig with anti-short from text. As i side befor if you realy whont to stop it simpley don't use it.

md wrote:

I assume that people write the way they do on purpose because often times when they do you can tell. The words they use, and how they use them show that they could write better and choose not to. Assuming that people all have a disability and can't write properly is just plain stupid.


Assuming that every person dose not spell right initentaly is even more stupid, i did not mean to assume they have a disablitiy i ment to assume they are not trying to make it hard to read out of some evil wishes for you. I rather dought peoleop that use short forms are doing it to mess with other peolepo and make it harder to read.

md wrote:

We *know* most people can write properly, and we *know* that some people simply write poorly because they think it's cool.


Again i rather dougth any one misspells words or uses bad gramer thining it is cool. Maybe some do for short froms but most of it is simepy becues it is shorter and that they see other peoleop using it. Afferter all when you are sms things it costs meony to have more text. This habit is then trasered to all things typed. I realy don't think coolness plays a part in it at all.

md wrote:

Giving the benefit of the doubt simply encourages them when what they need is to be shown that writing poorly in any circumstance is not acceptable if you can help it.


I think the probelm is that you consdired short froms to be poor english, as i see it as evloving english. I don't realy think it should be encouraged or discoraged but used simpley if you like it. Then if many peoleop like it is will become english. If you mean spelling things wrong (witch you probly don't but it is in the orginal post) i whould not encorage any one to spell wrong inintealy and i don't think many peoleop whould whont to.

md wrote:

Being an optimist is all fine and dandy; but if you intend to actually get anything done you need to be realistic.


Then why even bother helping peoleop? Affter all they probly are not going to thank you or care. Why should we even talk to other peoleop? They could be idioits or disagrea with us. Being a pestimist is not great either. All i am saying is assume the best in peoleop and then juge them on what they say not how they say it.

md wrote:

Won't it? Ostracizing people until they improve their ways usually works very well at making them change.


I realy don't see how ostracizing peoleop will make there spelling better. It will shure make you look like an ass tho. The logic behind shuning peoleop and inusting them to make them learn is not a good teaching method. This has been brougth up in many debates in the teaching filed and it is wiledly accepted that insuing studntes when they can't do somthing dose not make them better at it in any way. If anything it just washes away there self esteam. Witch if you are just trying to be an ass and be self imporent is perfect for you.

If you whont peoleop to change, right a well word and thought out argument for your case with points and suport evidence and leave out the name calling. So far all i have seen from you guys is "becues it makes reading harder" and a buch of name calling (mostly saying they are lazy) and out right stating it is wrong or poor english. If you whont to make a point make it. Go in to deepths as to why using short forms could hurt the english langue or aucatly makes reading much harder and suport it. Just becues i side so i not a very good argument.

md wrote:

El comandante used to be an ass, and yet after being ignored, flamed, and generally ridiculed he as become a much more mature member of compsci.ca and where I wasn't willing to help him with the smallest of problems before I am now more then willing to help him.


El comandante was one of the few who aucatly used short forms and slag to be annyoing initnaly witch is quite rare (out side counter strick at least). Most peolepo are not using short froms to anyone or hurt any one. As i whould say the biggest thing that effected el was being banned from compsci.ca not your making fun of him.

md wrote:

I know that I am not alone in this either. Posting threads like this and attacking posts where people write poorly serves to embarrass and annoy people who write poorly, hopefully to the point where they stop doing it.


And yet you claim to not being discrimtationy when you out right say you are trying to out peoleop and embarraes and hurt (yes emabrrasing peoleop hurts them psyogicaly) for just wrighting poorly. The turth is you are not going to ambarrass or annoy any one who is using missspeelings and slang initanly, they simpely whont care. However you shure as hell will hurt any one who dose not do it on purses. And it also servers to post a hell load of spam on the site when you reply simpley to say you don't like there spelling.

md wrote:

Were these people stealing instead of writing poorly and were we sentencing them to jail as opposed to detailing their poor writing and criticizing them I am sure that no one would take issue at all.


Were theses peoleop a diffrent race and you where outright claiming to whont to hurt them (emontaly) or ostracizing them you whould be outcasted for being a biget and chagred with hate crimes/speah.
Author:  Clayton [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hacker Dan wrote:

f you say don't do somthing while cleary doing your self (in the case of freakman) then you are a hypocrite). I don't realy know what you can all it other then discriminiantory when you are saying a gorup of poeleop that use words in such a say are wrong, bad and lazy.


As I said in my above post, I do not try and do it intentionally, nor do I try and make it habit. Think about it this way Dan, they are wrong. Spelling "u" instead of "you" (or whatever the case may be) is just not part of the english language. If you still believe it is, please show me a solidly, non-biased article proving that it is. The fact of the matter is, if you aren't going to bother putting the effort into typing properly, then chances are, others aren't going to bother putting the effort into replying. This is a universal truth, not just to posting, but everything. It's true the saying: "You get out of something what you put into it."

Hacker Dan wrote:

This is not what the oringal post says, the post witch all your sigs link to. It cleary metions spelling in it. And using less letters dose make typing faster, maybe not for you but it dose for the peoleop that use it.


First, by "all of your sigs", you mean md and I. Second, yes it mentions spelling, however, it also mentions (perhaps not perfectly clearly) that a spelling mistake or two is understanable (I would be surprised if I don't make any less than 3 spelling errors in this post alone), however, when it becomes obvious that you are doing some sort of misspelling of a word consciously and with the hope of looking "cool", then I have an issue with it.

Sure using the "short forms" makes typing faster, but it also would take you an infintisimally small amout of time to add the extra two or three letters to said word to make it a whole word.

Hacker Dan wrote:

this is not a formal report to your boss, just like you whould not talk in formal english you whould not type online like you whould in a formal report.


Perhaps not, but you should make the effort to at least spell correctly, as well as use proper grammar.

If you don't believe me that this can effect other things, take this into account:

Last year I was in a Grade 10 academic english class. During that time we had to write 3 different essays. Each time our essays were handed back, our teacher would comment on them, and every time, she brought up things just like this, using "u" or "lol", IN AN ESSAY, a formal essay. Also, I don't know about you, but it seems like more and more people today talk much less intelligently between each other (even face to face in a classroom setting). I have in fact had people say "lol" to my face, and quite frankly I was disgusted. This just serves to prove that this kind of talk on the internet is spreading to offline discussions, and that, quite frankly, is disturbing.

Hacker Dan wrote:

El comandante was one of the few who aucatly used short forms and slag to be annyoing initnaly witch is quite rare (out side counter strick at least)


And you call us out for discrimination? I happen to play Couter Strike, and am happy to say that I talk quite normally using proper english, as do many of my friends. Just thought you should know.

Either way, you are asking us to provide evidence that using improper english is hurting youth in any way. Now I ask you, provide us with some that proves youth are not being hurt by this nonsense.
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Freakman wrote:
Dan, all of those quotes from old posts are just that, old. Since then I have learned that typing "u" and "ur" has not helped me in any way. I now use the best grammar and spelling I can use. Sure I slip up sometimes, I'm sure if you looked there would be a fairly recent post with "plz" or something in it, but I do my best to not make it a habit. In that regard, this thread is not aimed towards those who use said "words" every now and then, but those who routinely use letters as words.


That is a prity dam covenent way out, "shure i did it in the past befor i side it was wrong but now" and "shure if you aucatly look you will know i am full of b.s., but it is only a litte bit of b.s.". You even had captiazion errors and garmer errors in that qoute right there. Yet you so esaly state that spelling garmer and short forms are wrong.

Freakman wrote:

I feel in no way any better than anyone else by creating this thread and actively participate in this debate. If you or anyone else feel this way, you are sorely mistaken.


Shure you are just saying every one who uses short forms and bad spellings is less then you. Thats not the same as saying you are better then them at all, it is totaly the other way around right? Honestly what eltes are you trying to say? md at least made it clear that he was trying to put peoleop down.

Freakman wrote:

As md so rightly said:

md wrote:

This thread is not about people who can't spell, or people who type too fast, or people with learning disabilities.




It did not have to be about spelling or gramer but you made it that way in your first post. Even your first line is "I have recently noticed that the quality of grammar and spelling has dropped considerably in posts.". So you are going to tell me that by spelling you magicly did not mean spelling? And by grammer you magicly did not mean grammar? Unless you edit that out prity fast it is not going away. This thread is about spelling grammer becues you made it about it by saying that. You could have easly just sticked to the short forms and stoped this masive debate but you choses to add in spelling and gramer not me.

freakman wrote:

This is in fact for the people who continually and conciously use poor grammar or spelling simply because it give the image of being "cool" or a "1337 H4X0Rz".


But wait you just side this was not about spelling or grammer. Trust me almost no one is trying to spell wrong to look cool. 1337 speak and short forms are not bad spelling they are cometly other things. I will agrea with you on 1337 speak, that is trying to make things more comploicated but you are crazy if you think peoleop are spelling things wrong just to mess with you. You whould have to be masively parionied or have the bigest ego in the world to think that peoleop make posts intantaly with spelling errors just to make it harder for you to read them.

Freakman wrote:

This thread was created because I am tired of trying to decipher the difference between things that are words, and letters that are *supposed* to be standing in for words.


This cearly is not the case. No where did you ask about the differeneces or even try to start a dissction about it. You out right side they where wrong and listed them. Then you put it in your sig. md had it right when he impleyed this post and others like it where all about making fun of, annyoing and osterzing peoleop who use the spellings, words and gramers you do not like.

Freakman wrote:

It was in no way whatsoever aimed towards you. Once again, this was aimed towards people who routinely use these words or abbreviations.


It could have been but you added in spelling and gramer. I know it was not at me but saying spelling, gramer and short froms is alot diffrent then just saying short froms. Also if you aucatly whonted an intengenct converstaion about this subject you whould have made it like a debate fromat not a "you are all lazy" post and then stick it in your sig.


Freakman wrote:

That being said, the people who do routinely use these words know who they are, and hopefully they will stop, knowing how some people feel. Be as optimistic as you want, but at some point you are going to have to face reality: Life isn't fair.


No one is going to stop becues you make fun of them, all you are doing is hurting the peoleop who do not do it on poropses and the peolepo who do, do it to anyone others get a great kick out of seeing you all mad about it and it just makes them whont to do it more.

Shure life is not fair dose that mean we should go out and make fun of any one who is diffrent. NO. That has got to be the worst logic i have ever seen. Maybe i should go just lock every topic in OT becues it likey is going to go on for a long time and just be spam? Obvesly i do not and will not but by this logic we should. Also by your logic we sould just ban every user you says " u " or makes a spelling error.

I am saying assume the best in peoleop and juge them by what they say not how they say it. You are saying assume the worst and peolepo and start making fun of them when they say smomthing in a new or odd way and then ingore there message.


Freakman wrote:

Perhaps not magically, but I know for a fact that it has already had some sort of positive effect int the IRC channel. Posting a link in my signature I feel is a good thing to do. Sure some people may not apprectiate it, but others may take a good long look at this and think long and hard. No one said this was going to be pretty, but some change will happen, and it will be both for the good and the bad.


I will be honsty with you, and i realy don't mean this in a flaming kind of way. But to me it makes you look like a compeny and outer ass. It makes me whont to use "u" in every word i type just to piss you off now. If you where to bug some one in the IRC room for using "u" i honstly whould consider kicking you for harasing them and if you made posts that only made coments about there spelling i whould delete them right away for being spam. If some one comes to ask a progaming question they realy don't need a hour lector on why they are lazy and dumb for using "u".

The realy effecst of this post are you offending any one who uses bad spelling, gramer or short forms unintentaly or in a way that is not ment to be anyoing and the peoleop that realy use them to be annyoing are laugthing at you and will just do it more to get to you.


Freakman wrote:

Yes it is easy. As I said above, you can tell fairly easily when someone is using poor grammar/spelling just to act or sound cool. I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't use proper spelling or grammar is an idiot (you being a living example), but that the majority are.


I would say that makes you either an idoit or an ego manicane to think poeleop are miss spelling to piss you off. Some peoleop do use short forms and 1337 speak to piss peoleop off but that is not miss spellings or bad gramer. I have never seen a case where peoleop are misspeling to look cool, it just dose not make scence. The closet i have seen is "teh" but this is ushely a tyep-o or done for other reasons.

If some on tutrly was spelling wrong and using bad gramer to look cool, then you might be right. But i have yet to see any aucatly do this and i find it hard to belvie that you could tell the diffrence.

Freakman wrote:

In the end, this is what I believe in, and I will fight it to the end.


Appreantly what you believe changes prity past from the gramer and short forms usage in your older posts.......
Author:  Clayton [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hacker Dan wrote:

Appreantly what you believe changes prity past from the gramer and short forms usage in your older posts.......


Really Dan, if you're going to play the blame game, then please just stop posting here now. Frankly, it's childish. It's the equilvalent of saying "He stole my lollipop" and then ten minutes later stealing something back.

Also, as Cervantes said, people change. I think that in the year I have been here, I have changed quite a bit. Just because someone used be some way doesn't mean that they have to be that way to this day. Think about that.
Author:  Tony [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
You guys have enough material up there to write a book.

I think this discussion is starting to get more personal than it should be, and I would lock it, but I realize that you mods will just continue on posting anyways, so I'll leave it up to all of you to make a better judgement call.
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Freakman wrote:

Think about it this way Dan, they are wrong. Spelling "u" instead of "you" (or whatever the case may be) is just not part of the english language. If you still believe it is, please show me a solidly, non-biased article proving that it is.


For the 1000s time english is not what is in the dictoray it is what is spoke, wirten or now in a new age, typed. What we are seeing is a new fourm of english, causely typed english.

Now for some reason if you do need writen articals about it there are alot on the subject for both sides. Some claiming that it is bad like you and others like me saying that is a natrual elouvation of the langue.

You can even see things like "lol" staing to pop up in dictoranys and other refecrences. I realy don't think it is nessary to list a bunch of links to articals about this subject as like english they whould all be subjective since english is what is ued not what is in a book.

Freakman wrote:

The fact of the matter is, if you aren't going to bother putting the effort into typing properly, then chances are, others aren't going to bother putting the effort into replying. This is a universal truth, not just to posting, but everything. It's true the saying: "You get out of something what you put into it."


Just becues effort is not put in to the way the method is sent dose not mean the message it's self is lazy or effeort less. However not reading somthing becues it is harder to read is being lazy and effort less.

Shure if peolepo start using short forms, other will too. That is how the english langue evloves and has been evloving since the dawn of time. I see no problem with this at all.

Freakman wrote:

First, by "all of your sigs", you mean md and I.


I mean, you, md, and Mazer. Monstly md and you as you two are the bigest sorces of the other side of this debate. Not that it matters how many or few are on your side, it dose not change the value of the argurment.

Freakman wrote:

Second, yes it mentions spelling, however, it also mentions (perhaps not perfectly clearly) that a spelling mistake or two is understanable (I would be surprised if I don't make any less than 3 spelling errors in this post alone), however, when it becomes obvious that you are doing some sort of misspelling of a word consciously and with the hope of looking "cool", then I have an issue with it.


Since i have stated this serveral times: no one missspells to look cool. I whould aucatly like to see a link to a post where you think they are doing this. Note that 1337 speak and short forms are not aucatly missspellings.

And you cleary did not say that in your orginal post you simpley side spelling and grammar.

Freakman wrote:

Sure using the "short forms" makes typing faster, but it also would take you an infintisimally small amout of time to add the extra two or three letters to said word to make it a whole word.


Not in the case of all short forms, also as i side befor it reduces the changes of misspellings and type-os. As i see it, it is up to the wrighter.

Freakman wrote:

Perhaps not, but you should make the effort to at least spell correctly, as well as use proper grammar.


Formal english and unformal english have diffrent grammer. And i dought many peleop do not try to spell right, some probly have worses spelling when typing fast but some posts need to be type fast from tones of reasons. (like this one, some one is bound to reply befor i finsish this).


Freakman wrote:

Last year I was in a Grade 10 academic english class. During that time we had to write 3 different essays. Each time our essays were handed back, our teacher would comment on them, and every time, she brought up things just like this, using "u" or "lol", IN AN ESSAY, a formal essay.


I see this as two things:

1. It shows the it is evloving in to all typed english, witch is aucatly some what logical as we have diffrent system for righting then speak. So typing from right could be diffrent.

and

2. The peoleop in your class are being rather dumb in this case. I defened typing like that on messages borads, msn, sms or anything causal online but in a formal report it pushing it. Tho spellchers should catch that and be able to fix it witch whould aucatly be realy good for me if everything had a short from, then i could press one bution and my hole easy whould be converted to spelled right english. Also a formal easy is not sposted to be in 1st person so one whonders how you could have LOL in it in short or long form.

Freakman wrote:

Also, I don't know about you, but it seems like more and more people today talk much less intelligently between each other (even face to face in a classroom setting). I have in fact had people say "lol" to my face, and quite frankly I was disgusted. This just serves to prove that this kind of talk on the internet is spreading to offline discussions, and that, quite frankly, is disturbing.


I think saying that "lol" and "u" is respoable for the failing in our education system and peoleops intelligence is taking it rather far. I think the way our hole socity is going is effect peoleop having less intenlligent converstations and the internet has litte to do with it alone. If you whont to blame somthing for that one look to the media, have you seen how dumb t.v. shows are geting thess days?

As for using "LOL" in real speah, it could also be seen as the evlotion of the english langue but even i see that one as rather odd. You whould not noraml spell out words to talk so i don't see why you whould use there short froms unless it is a proper noun (world of warcarft to WoW). As i side befor i see this a type casual english, i might even side with you for the cases of "LOL" in real life.

Freakman wrote:

And you call us out for discrimination? I happen to play Couter Strike, and am happy to say that I talk quite normally using proper english, as do many of my friends. Just thought you should know.


What i ment is 1337 speak started in counter strike or at least to my knowage it did. If i am wrong about it's orginals please feal free to corect me.

Freakman wrote:

Either way, you are asking us to provide evidence that using improper english is hurting youth in any way. Now I ask you, provide us with some that proves youth are not being hurt by this nonsense.


Simple i whould say that any ingenetl humman being can tell the diffrence between causal and formal cases for english. Obvesly we whould not use the same english we do for talking to our firend in real life to right an english easy. In the same way we whould not use "LOL" for one either.

Also we have seen pashes or delvopmens in english like this befor. Most noteablity slang words like "dude" and other such words in causeal spoken english. This has yet, as far as i know brought about the destruction of the world or trued all of our kids in to mindless zombies. It has for the most part staed in it's place, the realm of causmal spoek english, and became part of the langue. This is much like how i see "u" and "lol", it is becoming part of the english langue, but not part of the spoek or formal writen english langue. Simpley it is how causal online coumncations can be done.

We have seen the elvtion of english over time form old english to the modern from so we know it can change and evloeve with socity. Right now our socrity is all about "time is moeny" and having to do everything fast fast fast. It falows that if our scoity is like this our langue whould become like it as well.

Fianly in the worst psoable case, where thess short forms are used for every singal form of comuncation. Whould it realy hurt peoleop or make them less ingenticat? No, it shure as hell whould sound wired but i don't see how using "u" whould magicaly decreases your integence or change what it is that you mean. Like in the case of your class with the "u"s in the formal essay, i am shure your teacher did not like it but i bet he understud it.
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Freakman wrote:

Really Dan, if you're going to play the blame game, then please just stop posting here now. Frankly, it's childish. It's the equilvalent of saying "He stole my lollipop" and then ten minutes later stealing something back.


Blame game? What did i blame you of doing to me? There is no issue of blame, everything you side in past posts is well documented, i do not need to make up things any one can sreach and see your word usage. Also the one doing the name calling is you, you just called me childish and immpleyed or directly stated every one who uses short forms is lazy and an idoit. There is no issue of blame as it is right there unless you edit it out.

Freakman wrote:

Also, as Cervantes said, people change. I think that in the year I have been here, I have changed quite a bit. Just because someone used be some way doesn't mean that they have to be that way to this day. Think about that.


I never side it was not ture, i side you change prity quick. I find it hyprictal if some one says do not do one thing when they have done it in the past, since you impelying you where an idoit and lazy (from your own posts). If this is not the case then what made you diffrent when you posted such short forms?
Author:  CodeMonkey2000 [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
This has gotten really out of hand. Personally I don't mind others useing internet slang, but i will try not to use it.
Author:  ericfourfour [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
In my opinion posts should be coherent. I however, don't care if you misspell words (on purpose or not). As long as I can understand it, I will read it.
Author:  Clayton [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Tony wrote:

I think this discussion is starting to get more personal than it should be, and I would lock it, but I realize that you mods will just continue on posting anyways, so I'll leave it up to all of you to make a better judgement call.


*sigh*

I will cease and decist. Dan, I can see your point, I just find it hard to believe, that's the fact. Let's just lock this, we are clearly getting nowhere, and this will eventually turn into a flame war (it has somewhat already).
Author:  Dan [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Freakman wrote:

I will cease and decist. Dan, I can see your point, I just find it hard to believe, that's the fact. Let's just lock this, we are clearly getting nowhere, and this will eventually turn into a flame war (it has somewhat already).


Allthought, i whould love to end it as well. Leaving it in your sig is not ending it. It is like pastering it on every post you have ever made and is taking a debate to an unnessary exteram and is the main reason why i find this so offsive. Also to me the orginal post you made to start this was flaming every person who has ever spelled somthing worng, used bad gramer or a short form.
Author:  Clayton [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have changed my signature. I still say we should lock and end this now.
Author:  Tony [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Alright, it's locked. I'm glad we came to a conclusion.

Thank you guys Smile

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